How free is America?

[Dee]

'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands"

the country was formed first as a REPUBLIC

One could argue that it was formed first as a confederation under the Articles of Confederation.

Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America in Congress assembled did on the fifteenth day of November in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, in the words following, viz:

One could argue that, and be correct in its infancy, but it was then refined into a Republic and THEN a written Constitution to protect that Republic.

[Mule 11]

The United States of America is a Republic. It takes little effort or search to know that...

[Lloyd Smale]

ill stick to what is said in the constitution. IT IS the foundation of this country. At least for now. If i reinterpret it then how can i bitch about the libs doing the same. the words democrat, republican or republic are not mentioned anywhere in it. i guess you can call it what you want but either way this country has changed into something that doesnt fit either description today.

[ironglow]

actually the constitution doesnt call us a democracy or a republic. twice in the constitution it is refered to as a union. 3 times if you count the preamble.

  Actually, the constitution does call for a representative form of government in several ways.  In fact Article 1, section 1, calls for exactly that;


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of
  Representatives.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   I suspect we should all peruse our Constitution now and then..by citizens, including myself, neglecting to do this regularly, may be just how our constitutional rights slip away..

  One would think that one of the basic college courses for a liberal education would be a study of our constitution.

 At least our immigration system once included constitutional instruction, but with the chaos the Democrats have created, we are importing millions who have no sense of our constitution..and most couldn't care less.
 
    A transcript of our Constitution:

     https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

  I also have a copy of the Federalist Papers, which explains the impetus that created our Constitution.
   

[ironglow]

I do not have a definition for “freedom”……there are, arguably, as many definitions as there are people who give them. We kinda know what freedoms are guaranteed to us by virtue of our humanity. How much of that is really so? Are any of us totally free? When we say that our freedoms are being eroded, which freedoms are those?  List them. Don’t get me wrong; I am not disagreeing with the “eroded” idea. It is, though, more than a bit general. We can come up with a few- gun control is one - but that is not the whole picture. What others are being compromised? What other limitations are we subject to?

E
   The DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCErefers to "God given rights", so obviously this was in mind as they wrote our Constitution, and BTW it also outlines the future Constution's way of removing a government that doesn't respect the the same..

  " We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"

   So far as our rights being eroded..quite clearly many are being infringed upon. And when a government either causes restrictions, or fails to respond to mobs that insist upon curtailment of rights.  That is the same as refusing to defend rights.

  1) Freedom of speech..  Can't say certain words, expected to use certain pronouns, cannot question the validity of an election..

  2) Freedom of travel..  Most recently during the recent Chinese virus problem..in many places travel was denied and some ordered to stay home.

  3) Surely the 4th amendment has been tried in many ways in the recent struggle between politicap factions.. the 4th amendment;

  17. Fourth Amendment
 
  Fourth Amendment: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, b.

   Surely, there is a basis to question our government's actions..against gun rights and our most recent past president and his associates.

   ..And how about being forced to wear a mask, which some medical authorities say, causes illnesses.. Or some forced by threats , to ake vaccinations?

  4) ..And our borders..  Article IV section 4, not only reinforces a representative republic, but also guarantees that our government should maintain secure borders..

   Article IV  Relationships Between the States
Section 4 Republican Form of Government
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

   So, how has our government scoring as trying to prevent the erosion of our rights?

   I could go on...but...
                               
       

[Lloyd Smale]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

this is what wikipedia says about republics. by the way CA has it right on their flag. some other sketchy crap in the definition of a republic. pretty dam close to socialism

[ironglow]

Its why democracy's always lead to tyranny.

I am not disagreeing with that comment. Historically, there just have not been very many democracies. Which ended up as Tyranny? Rome? Athens? Russia before the Czars? Sparta? Evidently some on the Indian subcontinent (thank you, Wikipedia)?
Modern Examples?

   
  You are correct..democracies (by name) are historically rare, probably some of the most demonstrative examples being among some tribes of American Indians.
  However, however, the concept has been murky throughout history..

  Rome..Well, Rome left a republic style of government and lapsed into tyranny around 25 BC...Julius Caesar was murdered when he tried to do oit about 20 years before.. The Republic was formed about 500 BC, after the fall of the last Etruscan king.

  Athens was a democracy..issues being decided by the plebicite..bulky and unweildy..  ....But it fell to tyranny, when they surrendered to Spartan
    rule about BC 400 or 500.

  Sparta?  Nah...King Leonidas (300 Spartans) was half a dual kingship..

  Russia...I believe the Cars were just a later iteration of the kings of the Rus.. e.g. Igor of Kiev.. but I could be wrong..

  Europe/ After the fall of the Holy Roman empire, Europe became a holy mess !  Europe descended into a chaotic mess, but surprisingly it
  demonstrates IMO somne of the best graphic examples of a pure democracy, descending into tyranny.

  The failure of the Holy Roman Empire, once led by Charlemagne, led to a chaotic scramble between a multitude of strong men..  Many of them started like the future story of Robin Hood..  ..A strong leader, gathering expert fighters around him, who chose to support him, forms a tiny, neighborhood kingdom..

  Then he expands, taking down lesser strong men..inexorably conquering others, until his reign grew substantially.  Fighting and wars continued, certain select individuals formed whole countries.  But all these countries started by a group of warriors who chose (democratically) to follow a chosen leader.

  THe smaller, weaker nations were absorbed, until the Europe of today was formed..

  Below is how the European continent looked (superposed) before they emerged from the medieval period in 1200..

   Below that, a map of today's Germany showing the various kingdoms and principalities all struggling to grow..about 1300 AD.

[gypsyman]

Unfortunately, the balkanization of this country is in progress. More conservative areas, are starting to push back. And some of the liberal ones are getting a taste of what they want. It will continue, for how long, don't know. Hope I'm wrong, but pretty sure, there will be blood, much more than what we've seen, in the future. This country is being divided by politicians and globalists, just for that result. Both side's, against the middle, all in the name of freedom.

[Mule 11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

this is what wikipedia says about republics. by the way CA has it right on their flag. some other sketchy crap in the definition of a republic. pretty dam close to socialism

A Republic is no where near socialism/communism. Seriously with all the bull shat going on in the world you want to argue about this? Do you remember swearing an oath to the flag? I believe it was called the pledge of allegiance... I would suggest you try a different search engine...

[Lloyd Smale]

china is considered a republic. we are a UNION of free states. or at least were. why you guys claim to live and die constitution and ignore this boggles my mind. Its right there in black and white. maybe its the civil war connotation the word union makes you hate it so much but this has nothing to do with that word and it was penned way before that time. but remember this phrase? "in order to form a more perfect UNION" im out of this one now. seems there are some here that think like the libs that the constitution can be twisted like the libs like to do.

[Dee]

"We the people, in order to form a more perfect union" The beginning of the "preamble" for the Constitution.

However, the Constitution is as said, written around the Union as a Constitutional Republic

https://constitutionus.com/democracy/is-the-united-states-a-republic/

[Lloyd Smale]

first sentence in that link is what is killing us. i much prefer union as its connotation is a union of states with their own powers. republic gives to much authority to the federal government which wasnt the intention when this country was formed. its what is killing states like texas today. unlike when the constitution was formed we are RULED as a republic today. its exactly why this country is coming apart at the seems. the democrats are on the side of the republic where consevatives would rather it be a union like it was designed to be

[Mule 11]

actually the constitution doesnt call us a democracy or a republic. twice in the constitution it is refered to as a union. 3 times if you count the preamble.

  Actually, the constitution does call for a representative form of government in several ways.  In fact Article 1, section 1, calls for exactly that;


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Article. I.
Section. 1.
All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of
  Representatives.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   I suspect we should all peruse our Constitution now and then..by citizens, including myself, neglecting to do this regularly, may be just how our constitutional rights slip away..

  One would think that one of the basic college courses for a liberal education would be a study of our constitution.

 At least our immigration system once included constitutional instruction, but with the chaos the Democrats have created, we are importing millions who have no sense of our constitution..and most couldn't care less.
 
    A transcript of our Constitution:

     https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/constitution-transcript

  I also have a copy of the Federalist Papers, which explains the impetus that created our Constitution.
   

Please do tell...

[Mule 11]

china is considered a republic. we are a UNION of free states. or at least were. why you guys claim to live and die constitution and ignore this boggles my mind. Its right there in black and white. maybe its the civil war connotation the word union makes you hate it so much but this has nothing to do with that word and it was penned way before that time. but remember this phrase? "in order to form a more perfect UNION" im out of this one now. seems there are some here that think like the libs that the constitution can be twisted like the libs like to do.

And it seems others are pulling arguments out of their ass because an idea popped into their head with no study or knowledge...

[Lloyd Smale]

naw mule. everything i posted was based on fact. now if you can show me where we were called a republic in the constitution or show me proof of a really free country that calls itself a republic then its you pulling arguments out of your ass without fact and knowledge not me. seems your bashing eveyones opinions here but have yet to back up your own. but we are well used to that

[nw_hunter]

LLoyd.....I think Dee just explained to, but if you want to believe not, then so be it.

[Lloyd Smale]

i not denying that it has been refered to as a republic. just that that definition is a real stretch when talking about hoew our forefathers wanted our government to work. maybe even at that time period the term republic didnt have the connotations it does today. all you need to do is look at which countries today call themselves a republic. 

LLoyd.....I think Dee just explained to, but if you want to believe not, then so be it.

[Dixie-Dude]

After the Constitution was written, someone asked Ben Franklin what type of government did they give us.  He said "A republic if you can keep it".  So yeah, we have a Republic, not a democracy. 

[Mule 11]

Nahhh, another of Lloyd’s opinions is right and the pledge of allegiance is wrong. Come on man.

[Mule 11]

One more example.

Educating the People

“A primary object... should be the education of our youth in the science of government. In a republic, what species of knowledge can be equally important? And what duty more pressing... than communicating it to those who are to be the future guardians of the liberties of the country?”

George Washington

I think I’ll go with his thoughts on the subject...

[nw_hunter]

I think they started teaching Civic's in the 9th grade in Arkansas when I was in Jr High.Most schools don't even teach it any more.


"Masculine republics give way to feminine democracies, and feminine democracies give way to tyrannies.” Aristotle

I was raised to think women had babies, stayed at home, and men worked. By the time I got ready to do it, I thought I had all the answers. Only somebody had changed the questions. Lewis Grizzard[/color]

[darkgael]

U.S. Constitution: Article IV of the Constitution, which "guarantees to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government."

[Dee]

U.S. Constitution: Article IV of the Constitution, which "guarantees to every State in this Union a Republican form of Government."

Which the federal government has reneged on.

[ironglow]

 OK..for the real histiory., let's go back to the statements and papers published by the writers of the Constitution, during the same time
   they wrote the Constitution.

  Let's go back to THe Federalist Papers .  The Federalist Papers were wriytten by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, outlining what the coming Constitution should reflect.

   Keep in mind that James Madison was the most instrumental person in the writing of the original draft of the Constitution.

  Here is James Madison, explaining in article #39, the only feasible form of government for this new-born nation...  is a A Republic ..

  https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/federalist-no-39