How free is America?

[nw_hunter]

Is America still a free country?

Highest ranking in personal freedoms were Sweden (9.45) and the Netherlands (9.28). In 2020, United States has dropped to rank 17 according to The Human Freedom Index. The Freedom Index does not measure democracy, but it does measure freedom of speech and media, press killings, political imprisonment, etc.

The USA when a Republic and not a true democracy, was truly a free society.

Why was the US a republic and not a true democracy?
Direct democracies have always been vulnerable to tyranny. American republicanism, by contrast, offered protections from the instability, rashness, impetuosity, and social and political tyranny of democratic politics because it recognizes that the majority does not equal the whole of the community.

[Bob Smith]

But you all hate Sweden and the Netherlands. You cannot now hold them up as an icon of democracy.

[Casull]

But you all hate Sweden and the Netherlands. You cannot now hold them up as an icon of democracy.

Who's holding them up?

[Bob Smith]

The article just did. Perhaps you should just read it?\

[Casull]

Yep, pretty sure NW_Hunter did NOT write the article.

[ironglow]

But you all hate Sweden and the Netherlands. You cannot now hold them up as an icon of democracy.

   Who HATES Sweden and the Netherlands?  I never said such a thing, and I don't recall anyone here unloading a load of
   vituperation on them.
     Your "hate Sweden and Netherlands" is your statement, and apparently yours alone..

  However I still reiterate that pure democracy is just about the worst form of government, no matter who practices it ! Thankfully, I cannot think of
   any major country that does so.  ...Far too inconvenient  and unwieldy

[nw_hunter]

Yep, pretty sure NW_Hunter did NOT write the article.

NO! I did not write the article, nor do I believe it. The definition of freedom in most Euro. nations is totally different than ours. I do know we are steadily losing our freedoms.

Here's one example of the difference in what they call freedom.

 To own a gun in Sweden, you must be 18 years or older. The type of guns that you have access to is determined by the route that you take. For instance, when you only become a member of a shooting club, you only have access to pistols. Conversely, when you pass the hunting exam, you have access to hunting rifles.

Sweden gun control
Since the regulation of gun carry in Sweden is categorized as restrictive, there are different gun control legislative measures that are in place. Every gun law is regulated by both the European Commission and the National Police. However, your right to gun ownership isn’t guaranteed by law. "Sounds like gun control to me"

They believe freedom of speech in Sweden. "But" ........Is there censorship in Sweden?
Sweden protects freedom of speech in certain circumstances and was a pioneer in officially abolishing censorship. A number of restrictions remain such as  hate speech and libel. Who gets to determine hate speech? In all cases there is a legal process afterwards if applicable and no media are censored before publishing. Half the people on most forums would go to jail under these freedom of speech regs.

[ironglow]

Yep, pretty sure NW_Hunter did NOT write the article.

NO! I did not write the article, nor do I believe it. The definition of freedom in most Euro. nations is totally different than ours. I do know we are steadily losing our freedoms.

Here's one example of the difference in what they call freedom.

 To own a gun in Sweden, you must be 18 years or older. The type of guns that you have access to is determined by the route that you take. For instance, when you only become a member of a shooting club, you only have access to pistols. Conversely, when you pass the hunting exam, you have access to hunting rifles.

Sweden gun control
Since the regulation of gun carry in Sweden is categorized as restrictive, there are different gun control legislative measures that are in place. Every gun law is regulated by both the European Commission and the National Police. However, your right to gun ownership isn’t guaranteed by law. "Sounds like gun control to me"

They believe freedom of speech in Sweden. "But" ........Is there censorship in Sweden?
Sweden protects freedom of speech in certain circumstances and was a pioneer in officially abolishing censorship. A number of restrictions remain such as  hate speech and libel. Who gets to determine hate speech? In all cases there is a legal process afterwards if applicable and no media are censored before publishing. Half the people on most forums would go to jail under these freedom of speech regs.

   ^^^BINGO^^^ just as we have a different opinion on freedom, decency, courage, justice, equality, and morals, than does the "woke" left !

[darkgael]

I do not have a definition for “freedom”……there are, arguably, as many definitions as there are people who give them. We kinda know what freedoms are guaranteed to us by virtue of our humanity. How much of that is really so? Are any of us totally free? When we say that our freedoms are being eroded, which freedoms are those?  List them. Don’t get me wrong; I am not disagreeing with the “eroded” idea. It is, though, more than a bit general. We can come up with a few- gun control is one - but that is not the whole picture. What others are being compromised? What other limitations are we subject to?

[DDZ]

A democracy is two wolves and one sheep voting on whats for lunch.  Its why democracy's always lead to tyranny. I'm so ever thankful for the intelligent men who through God's hand created our Constitutional Republic. Also for all those that fought to keep it.

[darkgael]

Its why democracy's always lead to tyranny.

I am not disagreeing with that comment. Historically, there just have not been very many democracies. Which ended up as Tyranny? Rome? Athens? Russia before the Czars? Sparta? Evidently some on the Indian subcontinent (thank you, Wikipedia)?
Modern Examples?

[nw_hunter]

How many years do you want to go back, to proclaim modern?
We are only 247 years old. Is that modern enough for ya?

[DDZ]

Really I don't see Wikipedia as a good source of information. Anyone can put anything on there.

[Mule 11]

Really I don't see Wikipedia as a good source of information. Anyone can put anything on there.

I also skip past wankopedia...

[Dee]

How many years do you want to go back, to proclaim modern?
We are only 247 years old. Is that modern enough for ya?

But the Divided States wasn't founded on democracy (mob rule). It was founded as a Republic.

[Bob Riebe]

Really I don't see Wikipedia as a good source of information. Anyone can put anything on there.

It is FAR, far, far better than it was years back and without it, unless every one here is going to go to a library or buy a lot of texts, they would have no idea about the information it conveys.
One can double check what it says by checking other web sites but then how good are the web sites also?
 (I do not use talking heads on TV for history)

I doubt very much many here would go to the library even; I used to read A LOT and go to the library at least a dozen times a year.
The big one in this town, I have not been to in 8 years now.

[DDZ]

Really I don't see Wikipedia as a good source of information. Anyone can put anything on there.

It is FAR, far, far better than it was years back and without it, unless every one here is going to go to a library or buy a lot of texts, they would have no idea about the information it conveys.
One can double check what it says by checking other web sites but then how good are the web sites also?
 (I do not use talking heads on TV for history)

I doubt very much many here would go to the library even; I used to read A LOT and go to the liebray at least a dozen times a year.
The big one in this town, I have not been to in 8 years now.

Yeah, sometimes one just needs to inject some common sense.

[darkgael]

How many years do you want to go back, to proclaim modern?
We are only 247 years old. Is that modern enough for ya?

247 years is just fine. Sorry about the Wiki reference; it seems to have derailed the conversation.
Modern democracies since 1776 that have succumbed to dictatorship. France is one.

[magooch]

Whether or not our freedoms have been eroded is highly dependent on who and or what is in charge and how they got there.  More than just a few of those who are put into office and power have little to no regard for laws, rights or common decency--not to mention the Constitution.  We are experiencing that at this time because of the communist (Dummycrat) party and the dumbest, crookedest piece of crap that ever set foot in the White House.

It might take another revolutionary war to put it right and regain what we have lost.  I'm very afraid that we will probably not be able to vote freedom back.

[Dixie-Dude]

America still has the most gun freedom.  Almost all countries require you to be licensed and pass a test before you can own firearms.  The Czec republic required you to be licensed, but if you are you can own a machine gun and silencers.  Silencers are not licensed in Germany as they prefer you to keep your gun shooting quiet.  However you still have to have a license to own a firearm. 

Most western countries have freedom of speech of some sort. 

Here cancel culture is restricting freedom of speech.  The cancel culture started from the left.  So did gun control. 

[magooch]

Anyone who favors "right to bear arms" should also be an advocate of gun control.  Control being the ability to hit what you're aiming at and keeping your guns safe and in excellent condition.

[Dixie-Dude]

America is supposed to be a Republic which has more safeguards to avoid a dictatorship than a pure democracy.  Sometimes public opinion is wrong.  Thus the two houses, the senate is supposed to represent the states while the house is to represent the people.  Then the president is elected via electoral college due to giving states for say in who it should be, not the majority of the people, otherwise 4 largest states numbers wise could control the other 46.  Some people don't understand this.  Then the Judicial system isn't supposed to change laws just interpret them using the Constitution. 

Dem's want popular vote, but that can lead to a Hitler or Stalin. 

However, as time had gone on, our government has become way too big and needs thinning out.  We do not need the education department, the energy department and many need to be reduced.  We should pay a flat tax or a national sales tax instead of income tax, and have tariffs on foreign made goods that we can make here and thin the IRS.  We should get rid of the Federal Reserve and go back to the gold standard.  States should handle education and welfare.  Get rid of inheritance tax so family farms can stay family farms.  No foreign ownership of farmland or property in the US.  Close the border and send illegals home.  Lots of ways to fix things. 

[Mule 11]

America is supposed to be a Republic which has more safeguards to avoid a dictatorship than a pure democracy.  Sometimes public opinion is wrong.  Thus the two houses, the senate is supposed to represent the states while the house is to represent the people.  Then the president is elected via electoral college due to giving states for say in who it should be, not the majority of the people, otherwise 4 largest states numbers wise could control the other 46.  Some people don't understand this.  Then the Judicial system isn't supposed to change laws just interpret them using the Constitution. 

Dem's want popular vote, but that can lead to a Hitler or Stalin. 

However, as time had gone on, our government has become way too big and needs thinning out.  We do not need the education department, the energy department and many need to be reduced.  We should pay a flat tax or a national sales tax instead of income tax, and have tariffs on foreign made goods that we can make here and thin the IRS.  We should get rid of the Federal Reserve and go back to the gold standard.  States should handle education and welfare.  Get rid of inheritance tax so family farms can stay family farms.  No foreign ownership of farmland or property in the US.  Close the border and send illegals home.  Lots of ways to fix things.

Like he said...

[Lloyd Smale]

well said

America is supposed to be a Republic which has more safeguards to avoid a dictatorship than a pure democracy.  Sometimes public opinion is wrong.  Thus the two houses, the senate is supposed to represent the states while the house is to represent the people.  Then the president is elected via electoral college due to giving states for say in who it should be, not the majority of the people, otherwise 4 largest states numbers wise could control the other 46.  Some people don't understand this.  Then the Judicial system isn't supposed to change laws just interpret them using the Constitution. 

Dem's want popular vote, but that can lead to a Hitler or Stalin. 

However, as time had gone on, our government has become way too big and needs thinning out.  We do not need the education department, the energy department and many need to be reduced.  We should pay a flat tax or a national sales tax instead of income tax, and have tariffs on foreign made goods that we can make here and thin the IRS.  We should get rid of the Federal Reserve and go back to the gold standard.  States should handle education and welfare.  Get rid of inheritance tax so family farms can stay family farms.  No foreign ownership of farmland or property in the US.  Close the border and send illegals home.  Lots of ways to fix things.

[Lloyd Smale]

actually the constitution doesnt call us a democracy or a republic. twice in the constitution it is refered to as a union. 3 times if you count the preamble.

[darkgael]

States should handle education

It is States and communities, as well as public and private organizations of all kinds, that establish schools and colleges, develop curricula, and determine requirements for enrollment and graduation. The structure of education finance in America reflects this predominant State and local role.Jun 15, 2021

The U.S. Department of Education is the agency of the federal government that establishes policy for, administers and coordinates most federal assistance to education. It assists the president in executing his education policies for the nation and in implementing laws enacted by Congress.

The 10th Amendment establishes education as a function of the states.

[Mule 11]

I actually like the idea of the parents controling the funds for their children’s education. Take the state and federal government out of the equation.

[Dee]

The former "united" States, now demonstrating daily to be  The DIVIDED States was founded as a Republic and the Constitution was written, edited, and created as the rules, and regulations of a REPUBLIC.
So in reality the country was formed first as a REPUBLIC, and the Constitution,  and Bill of Rights were then constructed in such a way to support not, a democracy, but instead, A REPUBLIC.
The Constitution is therefore constructed to ensure a republican form of government,  thereby preventing it from becoming a democracy. /b]

[Lloyd Smale]

im open to education. can you show were it was penned BACK THEN by the founders. sure doesnt mention it in the constitution. according to it we are a union of states and was kind of proven in the civil war when the south tried to secede by naming the nothern army the union army because according to the constitution thats what we are a union of states for better or worse. im not takings sides and dont want this thread to revert to another north south battle just stating it the way it was. texas was a republic but gave that up when they CHOSE to become a state. george washington was niether a democrat or republican

The former "united" States, now demonstrating daily to be  The DIVIDED States was founded as a Republic and the Constitution was written, edited, and created as the rules, and regulations of a REPUBLIC.
So in reality the country was formed first as a REPUBLIC, and the Constitution,  and Bill of Rights were then constructed in such a way to support not, a democracy, but instead, A REPUBLIC.
The Constitution is therefore constructed to ensure a republican form of government,  thereby preventing it from becoming a democracy. /b]

[darkgael]

'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands"

the country was formed first as a REPUBLIC

One could argue that it was formed first as a confederation under the Articles of Confederation.

Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America in Congress assembled did on the fifteenth day of November in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, in the words following, viz: