Obsolete- Underpowered- No bueno

[Ranger99]

Ha Ha
Another deer season is well underway here,
and with that here in the days of the internet
I've had mails and blah blah about obsolete
useless firearms like 30/06's, and 243's and
especially 30/30's
How pray tell did all those deer become
mortally wounded a century ago  ?
I've heard "Man, are you still trying to hunt
with that old ****** ? " ( fill in the blank)

I guess it's time to buy a 21st century
chambered something, or stay in bed
with the covers pulled up over my head

 .       .       .       

[ironglow]

.
  ....Zactly !   

[Ranger99]

A friend's youngest son was talking
with me about 223's and I mentioned
that the 223 was nearly 70 years old
and he was amazed

[gene_225]

Yes, after WWII my dad was among the many officers who suggested that the army drop the 30-06 and go to the .22 so troops could carry that much more ammo. After Korea, they did, and it has worked.

[Dee]

First they have an archery season. Then they have a muzzle loading season. But the 3030 is too weak, and the 223 is too small.

I'm glad the two bucks I killed last year with 1 shot each from my 5.56 hadn't heard about that. 

[ironglow]

First they have an archery season. Then they have a muzzle loading season. But the 3030 is too weak, and the 223 is too small.

I'm glad the two bucks I killed last year with 1 shot each from my 5.56 hadn't heard about that. 

   Yeah!  The critters haven't gotten the news yet !

[wtxbadger]

Thinking I'll stick with my 45-70 single shot.

[Dee]

Thinking I'll stick with my 45-70 single shot.

Thats over kill. Very inhumane. 

[ironglow]

.
    Personal choices... That is what freedom is all about...what the left is trying to kill..

[gypsyman]

 I quit reading gun magazines over 20 years ago. Amazing how a writer will do an article on the newest and best firearm, and a couple pages back in the magazine, is a full page add for the exact gun he did an article on. Also try to avoid any articles that pop up on Fakebook some other outdoor website. Usually about, we've settled the debate on what's the best caliber for self defense!! BLAH BLAH BLAH !! Shoot what your comfortable with, and practice.

[ironglow]

A friend's youngest son was talking
with me about 223's and I mentioned
that the 223 was nearly 70 years old
and he was amazed

   Funny.. I was preparing a message for a church where I have been invited to speak..on 1/13/2024.  Part of that message will be a personal
     history, and while I was ruminating upon the bygone years, a thought came to me..  How time flies..

     The last surviving veteran of our Civil War  (Albert Woolston), passed away at his home in Minnesota...in August 1956.  That was about a year
      after I finished my training as a tanker, and was assigned to the 4th Armored Division at Ft Hood..  I was struck by the irony..

   Below, see the civil war version of a "light tank charge"...

[Lloyd Smale]

wife asked me if i could go back in time 500 years and could only take what i could carry what would it be. told her a ar15 slung over each shoulder and a 50 cal ammo can of 556 in each hand. you woul be a God!! even during the american revolution or the civil war.

[Ranger99]

You'd want your pockets full of
water purification tablets, and/or
a backpack with bottles of bleach.
Probably last long enough before
one or 400 of the barbarian types
ambushed you while talking a
poop break or something

[Dixie-Dude]

You can boil water to kill germs, and filter it through old cloth.  Using a layer of charcoal and sand can also filter water.  Can't get ammo in the 1,500's, gunpowder maybe, but fast shooting ammo, no. 

[Lloyd Smale]

never counted what fits in a 50 cal can. i have two of them with neatly stacked stripper clips and id say a conservative guess is 5-10k each. so with 10 of ammo and a scoped  ar to sit back 400 yards while all the proper soldiers stand in a line 50 yards apart i could take care of about any army. the ones left would run home in fear of the invisible man shooting tiny bullets. i think it would be a while before i needed gun powder. id bet i could find plenty of clean water back then so that space id use for a good knife and a cleaning kit. second ar would be my 7 in ar pistol with a binary trigger for in case they closed in on me. id bet the NOISE AND BELCHING FIRE from that little hammer would send them all running. or i could get even fancier and swap them both out for the same in 300bo and grab my 30 cal can. i might have to get a bit closer but theyd think bullets were falling out of the sky and certainly getting the hell out  the area while im doing a casual shoot and scoot. heck just surgically take out the officers and save ammo for the next battle.

[darkgael]

Lloyd: 500 years ago. That is a remarkably simplistic view of what would happen. At the beginning, your enemies would face a learning curve. But learn they would and there are more of them than one guy. They would watch you, track you and plan around your strengths and weaknesses. You would be most vulnerable at night….as in Vietnam “we ruled the day and they ruled the night and the night seemed to last as long as….” A long time. You have to sleep. That is when they would come. Game over.

PS: I had no idea about how may 5.56 rounds would fit in a .50 cal ammo box. So you are not the only one interested. Cut to the chase: 1000 rounds (500 on stripper clips)

[ironglow]

  Until recently on the modern battleground, with our technology...we ruled the night !  (e.g. the raid that killed Bin Laden)
      ..But that is history now, since Biden left so much military materiel behind in Afghanistan.   

  So far as going back...Just consider if Custer had one squad armed with Ruger 10/22s...

[darkgael]

Much of that does not apply to the scenarios in question. A single man with modern arms and ammo 500 years ago.
During the day...maybe ok for a while....a short while. How hard would it be to outflank a single man? At night......game over.

[ironglow]

Much of that does not apply to the scenarios in question. A single man with modern arms and ammo 500 years ago.
During the day...maybe ok for a while....a short while. How hard would it be to outflank a single man? At night......game over.

    When I visited the site of the Battle of the Little Bighorn many years ago, the 10/22 idea occurred to me .  There Custer and his men were,
    some crouched behind their dead horses, and otherwise exposed upon the hillside.

   Keeping in mind, even though a .22LR is not even near the power of the Henry .44, which many of the Indians were carrying, still 12 of Custer's
   men, may well have discouraged enough hostiles to get them to quit the fight.

     Sure a hit by a .22 lr is not going to get a kill each time, but a seriously wounded man isn't going to be worth much on a battlefield either.

[GTS225]

wife asked me if i could go back in time 500 years and could only take what i could carry what would it be. told her a ar15 slung over each shoulder and a 50 cal ammo can of 556 in each hand. you woul be a God!! even during the american revolution or the civil war.

Ummmm.....Lloyd?  You kinda got the era wrong.  You said 500 years back.  The continent wasn't "discovered", until 1492 or so.  So, you'd have made your appearance about 1524.  Seems to me you'd have been burned at the stake, especially if you were anywhere near Salem, Massachusetts.  Just sayin'....in the interests of accuracy.

I'm surprised at the rest of you for not catching that.....Roger

[ironglow]

wife asked me if i could go back in time 500 years and could only take what i could carry what would it be. told her a ar15 slung over each shoulder and a 50 cal ammo can of 556 in each hand. you woul be a God!! ev"possiblesen during the american revolution or the civil war.

Ummmm.....Lloyd?  You kinda got the era wrong.  You said 500 years back.  The continent wasn't "discovered", until 1492 or so.  So, you'd have made your appearance about 1524.  Seems to me you'd have been burned at the stake, especially if you were anywhere near Salem, Massachusetts.  Just sayin'....in the interests of accuracy.

I'm surprised at the rest of you for not catching that.....Roger

  Do you not recognize Leif Erickson at Lanse Au Meadows, circa AD 1000?  At least so far as European discovery is concerned.  
 
   In any case, I figured the whole thread to be an exercise in "possibles", which is why I moved the scene forward to 1876, which battle was fought
    in daylight only.

  Interestingly, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull and their followers, won that battle, but only managed to accelerate their losing of the war,  and indirectly,
   the loss of the 2 chiefs' own lives..Crazy Horse by a US trooper, and Sitting Bull by one of his own..a reservation cop.

[darkgael]

The idea of 10/22s at  little big horn is an intriguing fantasy. My first reaction was “no way” but I have changed my mind. 3000 Lakota/ Cheyenne/ etc. vs Custer and his 210 troopers. The troops each were issued a rifle (trapdoor carbines and others and a .45 pistol ) They all died.
Suppose that each trooper  had a 10/22 and eight 25 round magazines? That would have given them 40,000 rounds to shoot.
Enough to make a difference ?

[Dixie-Dude]

224/5.56 all with AR's and plenty of magazines.  They could have killed many at a distance before they got into range.  20-25% losses, usually make an army retreat. 

[Mule 11]

My grandfather held a game warden down behind a fallen tree when he was 14 with a 22 rifle and then snuck home under the cover of darkness. Facts are much better than fiction ...

[GTS225]

Can one imagine M1A's or M14's at 600-800 meters?  With those distances, they'd all be wondering where the incoming was originating from, and would not be able to believe it once they did determine where.

Just sayin'.....Roger

[Mule 11]

Hey! How about biological warfare? Oh! Wait a minute, we already actually did that. I can almost hear it now. “ I’m from the government and I’m here to help “ have some nice blankets...

[ironglow]

Can one imagine M1A's or M14's at 600-800 meters?  With those distances, they'd all be wondering where the incoming was originating from, and would not be able to believe it once they did determine where.

Just sayin'.....Roger

  On Reno's hill, ..3-4 miles from Custer's location...Reno's men did not have the very highest hill, since there was a slightly higher elevation, some distance away., Reno's men were bothered greatly by one particular, Indian shooter especially, from that rise....

     National Parks Service says that the sniper's nest was at least 500 yards off..  He must have been using a Sharps rifle !  ...Or some other
   battlefield  pickup 45/70.    

      "Lakota and Cheyenne warriors occupied vantage points all around the Reno-Benteen position. The warriors were armed with a variety of different weapons. A sharpshooter on the ridge 500 yards away made life extremely hazardous for the troopers lying along this portion of the line.Jan 7, 2023

Reno-Benteen Defense Site - Little Bighorn Battlefield ..."

National Park Service (.gov)

   

[ironglow]

  Another problem..  Black powder..and copper cases..  Custer's men were armed with Springfield "trap door" 45/70s.  These rifles tended to seize up
   after firing several rounds in a rapid succession.. 

  The trapdoor had a narrow ejector hook and with copper cases, that hook would pull right through the rim of a seized case.   ... Troops using a trap door with copper shells..when under attack..often had to use their kinves to try to pick out the spent cartridge... a rather common problem at the time .
   

[Dixie-Dude]

Hey! How about biological warfare? Oh! Wait a minute, we already actually did that. I can almost hear it now. “ I’m from the government and I’m here to help “ have some nice blankets...

The British started this before the American revolution.  Don't know if the Americans actually did this.  The damage was already done.  90% of American indians died from white man's disease even before we crossed the Appalachians and started west.  Not just the Brits, but the French and Spanish brought childhood diseases that killed adult Indians.  All Indian deaths were not from bullets. 

[gene_225]

When I worked for the city of Gresham Oregon, I was told that the archeologists found a village along the Columbia River where all the bodies were right where they fell. Turned out, so I was told, that Lewis and Clark had stopped to visit that village and the whole village caught something from them. They did good work, right?