...Question for car enthusiasts.

[ironglow]

 .
      What was the first post war American Sports car?  If you guessed the Corvette...you guessed wrong..

    Check this variety of car out...  Corvette introduced in 1954 (55 model), but this car won the 1950 SCCA race at Sebring..

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxCxWiiOcCU

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but nothing with 26hp is a sports car. it won because it was spotted a 150 laps. now me? ill argue the hudson hornet. drove right off the showroom floor to a nascar track and kicked ass. id like to see one off those little wind up cars hang on a hornets bumper. that hudson put out 8 times the hp. heck a flat head v8 model A almost 3 times as much. the first corvette with an anemic blue flame 6 4 times as much. i guess if you spot a turtle enough laps it will beat a cheetah

[ironglow]

sorry but nothing with 26hp is a sports car. it won because it was spotted a 150 laps. now me? ill argue the hudson hornet. drove right off the showroom floor to a nascar track and kicked ass. id like to see one off those little wind up cars hang on a hornets bumper. that hudson put out 8 times the hp. heck a flat head v8 model A almost 3 times as much. the first corvette with an anemic blue flame 6 4 times as much. i guess if you spot a turtle enough laps it will beat a cheetah

   Not surprisingly, Victor Sharp, the owner of that little Hot Shot, did drive it to the track at Sebring, the day he won the whole thing.

  He ran against Ferraris, Jaguars, Cadillac Allard, The Cunningham cars, which featured new Cadillac V8 engines.

  Flat head V8 Model "A"...  I thought the Ford V* was introduced in the 1932 model Ford, which replaced the model "A"..

  So far as spotting a turtle..  engineers figured out the formula..# of laps, vs time, vs distance..   Rather like the handicap in Golf or any other sport.

  We wouldn't expect a 105 pound wrestler to be directly pitted against a 305 pound wrestler, but that 105 pounder can still be top wrestler in a meet !

  Guess I am just one who tends to "root for the underdog" and sometoimes likes to see the mighty...upset

   Sure, that engine was tiny, but it was remarkable..at least in the cast iron block model.  At a time when the usual V8 at the time, reaching 4,000
     RPM was a feat, the little Crosley, regularly ran in the 6000 to 7000 range

   Do some tuning, and 11,000 to 12,000 was not unheard of..according to Crosley Club members.  Much due to the overhead cam and 5 mains, I
   suppose.

  When I was in high school, an English teacher, Mr Williams, had a Crosley... a station wagon, which he drove for all the time while I was in high
     school.  Sure, they were stripped models for the most part, but that is part of their charm.

   Consider putting that engine in  Harley...it may perform very well.  Then consider that the Hot Shot only weighed in at 1100 pounds.

    The designer, Powell Crosley, was an industrialist... As I recall, it was rare to see a small radio in any home, that was not a Crosley..

  Then came household appliances, especially Crosley reffrigerators.  Crosley's refrigerator introduced an excellent feature. Called the "Crosley Shelvador", it was the first refrigerator to put shelves on the refrigerator door, a feature now used by almost all refrigerators.

  Rooting for the underdog.... Enjoy this 30 second video !   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOPx5N-hwzw

[Lloyd Smale]

a pinto should really excite you. vega gt? about make you pee your pants spot either enough and they would beat my challenger in the quarter mile. doesnt make it a performance car. to claim that you should be able to at least give cars of the period a run in a heads up race. heck there was a Cosworth vega in town when i was street racing. duel overhead cam cast iron block. king of the vegas but even a mild 327 camaro would eat it for lunch. id have had to spot him half the track with my chevelle and he had more pride than that. we had a rule. you want to race race. nobody spotted anyone even a foot. handicaps are for golf people with pink shirts and apparently pompous english and english car reviewers that are use to mg midgets taking them to tea..  still remember the cheers one night in the late 80s when a doctor new in town showed up one night with his 308 ferrari and i destroyed him in my buick grand national. he never stopped and we never saw him there again. even welched on his 50 buck bet but i told my buddies i would have paid 50 bucks to do that. call it a performance car if you want but it sure doesnt qualify to me. id bet they didnt bother Porche or Ferrari much either and pretty obviously anyone because most have never even heard of them. . they probably got a good laugh out of it. i guess line me up 10 steps from the finish line and on feet i can beat a hellcat. i too must be high performance

[Bob Riebe]

Nash Healy is considered the first American sports car.

There was an Index of Performance:

It was used 1926 et 1971.

The Index of Performance rewards the car having covered the greatest distance depending on the type of vehicle , its cubic capacity and its age.

There were a LOT of little tiddlers in the early years.

[ironglow]

Lloyd;
   
  " a pinto should really excite you. vega gt? about make you pee your pants... "  It's just those type of crudities trhat cut your
    credibility and IMO exhibits your frustration. 
   When I see people resort to insult and accusations, I just figure they have 'run out of intellectual ammo', so why bother trying to reply?

   

[ironglow]

Nash Healy is considered the first American sports car.

There was an Index of Performance:

It was used 1926 et 1971.

The Index of Performance rewards the car having covered the greatest distance depending on the type of vehicle , its cubic capacity and its age.

There were a LOT of little tiddlers in the early years.

   ..But Bob, is the Nash-Healey truly an American car?  It used a Nash engine for sure, but the rest was built in the UK..  Apparently Donald Healey
  produced several such models...not the least of which, was the Austin-Healey.

  This is not a esoteric idea.  My nephew, who just went semi-retired from his specialist car repair shop, has at various times owned both a Sunbeam
   Tiger and a Ford (AC Ace chasis) Cobra, each using the same Ford engine.

   Another model of interest was the Cad/Allard..An Allard sports car with a Cadillac engine....again, British base.

  Just by the voices I hear, (not necessarily authorative), seem to consider the Cobra as American and the Sunbeam as British! Go figure ??

  Here's a statement from Wiki (no , I don't  trust Wiki oin certain subjects, but this is not controversial)..

     From Wiki;
   
The Nash-Healey is a three-seat luxury sports car or grand tourer produced from 1951 to 1954. It was marketed by the Nash-Kelvinator conglomerate in North America as a halo car to promote sales of its Nash Motors division.

The car was the result of a joint venture between Nash-Kelvinator and British automaker, the Donald Healey Motor Company. Nash supplied the drivetrain from their range-topping Ambassador model, and Healey provided the chassis and early bodies. One year after its introduction, the car was restyled by Pininfarina, and final assembly was transferred to Italy. The Nash-Healey is described by some as the first sports car introduced in the U.S. by a major automaker after the Great Depression.[2][3]

Various Nash-Healeys, some modified road cars and some purpose-built racers, competed in several endurance racing events, most notably posting a third-place finish at the 1952 24 Hours of Le Mans."

[Bob Riebe]

Nash money made the car.
Nash drive train, Healy made frame and body; later years the body was made in Italy.

It was as American as the Shelby Cobra.
One finished 3rd over all at LeMans in 1952.

He first approached GM with a Cadillac Healy, two were built.

The 1951 Nash-Healey is called the first post-war sports car from a major American automaker, as it was released two years before the Chevrolet Corvette.  This appellation excludes the limited volume Kurtis-Kraft and Muntz Jet, as well as the diminutive Crosley Hotshot, Super Hotshot, and Super Sport roadsters.

[ironglow]

Nash money made the car.
Nash drive train, Healy made frame and body; later years the body was made in Italy.

It was as American as the Shelby Cobra.
One finished 3rd over all at LeMans in 1952.

He first approached GM with a Cadillac Healy, two were built.

The 1951 Nash-Healey is called the first post-war sports car from a major American automaker, as it was released two years before the Chevrolet Corvette.  This appellation excludes the limited volume Kurtis-Kraft and Muntz Jet, as well as the diminutive Crosley Hotshot, Super Hotshot, and Super Sport roadsters.

   Still somewhat confused..  the Hot Shot was introduced in 1949.  Oh yes...there's the operative word..   first from a MAJOR US
    manufacturer..

[Bob Riebe]

Kurtis Kraft, and Muntz Jet sports cars were from 1949.





Muntz bought tooling from Kurtis Kraft.

[Lloyd Smale]

its called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know

Lloyd;
   
  " a pinto should really excite you. vega gt? about make you pee your pants... "  It's just those type of crudities trhat cut your
    credibility and IMO exhibits your frustration. 
   When I see people resort to insult and accusations, I just figure they have 'run out of intellectual ammo', so why bother trying to reply?

 

[Lloyd Smale]

now thats beautiful

Kurtis Kraft, and Muntz Jet sports cars were from 1949.





Muntz bought tooling from Kurtis Kraft.

[Lloyd Smale]

so ig you tell me what the definition of a sports car is? 2 seater? heck then how about a model T?  all the manufacturers made 2 door single seat cars all with as much or more power than that. then we went to flat head 6's and blew those numbers out of the water. then hudson and buick straight 8s and the fords v8. we wont even discuss the big caddy and Lincolns. sorry but im not seeing how this is any sportier then a hudson hornet that won the daytona 500. or the flat head fords that everyone with a wrench was getting all kinds of power out of and reliable power.

Anyone can slap the term sports car on any car. heck today they dont even have to be two doors. like i said ANY car can win a race if its spotted enough. that doesnt make it a sports car. to me a sports car has to do one of these two things and preferably both. it must be powerful enough to holds its own against competitors and it must handle.

 in the 40s and 50s the italians were just getting a grasp on rudimentary handling. so if you weren't in a real race car it didnt handle PERIOD. even into the late 50s with the start of the vette there wasnt much really in handling with those early ones or anything american. even in the 60s vettes were the best handling american cars but didnt hold a candle to porche or ferrari. they sold because they were much cheaper and they had POWER! wasnt till the c4 vette in 1984 that we had an american car that handled with the Europeans but sadly the power had gone away and took about another decade to get back on track.

 so then we have power and excelleration. that is what won races back then. you think the hudson hornet was a great handling car? nope but its motor made more power than the competitors did same thing earlier when the flathead ford came out and turned the industry inside out.  the early hemis of the 50s like the desotas and Chryslers , and the motor that changed the industry in 55. the small block chev. all these cars earned a place in the history book. id bet more have heard of crosley appliances then their cars. why?? because what american in the 50s wanted a 26hp car? maybe the grandpa of the first guy lined up to buy a yugo.

not trying to get in a pissing match but what american car guy is going to call that powerhouse a sports car. well i guess amc called the gremlin and pacer x's sports cars. maybe leave it in  england it might qualify as one there but its NOT the first sports car in america or an american sports car and wasnt even a true american car and by the way, yes the ac cobra wasnt either

[ironglow]

its called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know

Lloyd;
   
  " a pinto should really excite you. vega gt? about make you pee your pants... "  It's just those type of crudities that cut your
    credibility and IMO exhibits your frustration. 
   When I see people resort to insult and accusations, I just figure they have 'run out of intellectual ammo', so why bother trying to reply?

 

     Not quite acurate Lloyd...  in the foregoing post, I never posted it claiming to be expert as such.  The terminology concerning what is a sports
    car, seems to be a mutually assumed thing by those in the game.

     It seems a "sports car" has little to do with brute horsepower, but leans more toward a "personal fun car" attitude, with engine power not coming           
     into the picture..  It would appear that high G cornering is rated higher than many other attributes.

   Look back at some of the well known sports car names, MG, Porsche, Singer, Corvette, Alfa Romeo, certain Fiats etc.   Not all hav ebeen powerful
    or fast. ...And keep in mind, it was not I who decided the Hot Shot was a sports car, but the SCCVA (Sports Car Club of America) when they invited it to race innit's sanctioned event.

   More recently, the public seems to lean toward a powerful engine as being part of a "sports car", but this was not always true..especially back
    when the diminutive Hot Shot, took home the top trophy at Sebring..  Some tend to equate "sports car" with "muscle car", which are two different
   categories.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Now for your statement above;

 "s called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know"

   I have already given you credit for your apparent auitomotive experience..saying thing such as "If I want to know how to hook up a 3X 2 barrel
     carburetor, I would ask Lloyd".  Although I have done some mechanical work, I have little doubt but that you are far ahead of me in that field.

   I am however, surprised that you would place me in a favorable light concerning Biblical issues, your never having mentioned that before.

  ..But where do you get the idea that I crave to be an expert on everything?  In one sense, I do prefer to learn somnething new each day, but surely
   do not present myself as an expert in most fields...and I doub you can quote me anywhere stating such.  Matter of fact, I don't recall presenting
    myself here, as "expert" in any field.

  ...Sorry you have misunderstood...

[ironglow]

Kurtis Kraft, and Muntz Jet sports cars were from 1949.





Muntz bought tooling from Kurtis Kraft.

      I can recall somebody referred to as "Mad Man Muntz",  seems he was into manufacturing TV sets as well..

[Lloyd Smale]

ill end this because i know you never admit your wrong. this post by you said that this was the first AMERICAN sports car. in America we call cars sports cars that are fast. dont much care that in england the only powerful cars are for the elite socialists. this was NOT the first american sports car because it isnt a sorts car and it isnt american. whats next? you going to call a 2 stroke saab a sports car? i think even they out out more power than that turd. mg might come closer and i even owned one. got a great deal on it from my lieutenant. it had 22k on it. sorry but it was a turd too. i put 4k on it and threw a rod trying to drive it like a sports car. cool thing is we swapped out the long block in the parking lot with an engine hoist called Lloyd. sold it a week later. now i will grudgingly call the newer miatas sports cars. i drove one and they have just enough grunt to be fun but the older ones were anemic girls cars. now there im done but doubt you are.   

its called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know

Lloyd;
   
  " a pinto should really excite you. vega gt? about make you pee your pants... "  It's just those type of crudities that cut your
    credibility and IMO exhibits your frustration. 
   When I see people resort to insult and accusations, I just figure they have 'run out of intellectual ammo', so why bother trying to reply?

 

     Not quite acurate Lloyd...  in the foregoing post, I never posted it claiming to be expert as such.  The terminology concerning what is a sports
    car, seems to be a mutually assumed thing by those in the game.

     It seems a "sports car" has little to do with brute horsepower, but leans more toward a "personal fun car" attitude, with engine power not coming           
     into the picture..  It would appear that high G cornering is rated higher than many other attributes.

   Look back at some of the well known sports car names, MG, Porsche, Singer, Corvette, Alfa Romeo, certain Fiats etc.   Not all hav ebeen powerful
    or fast. ...And keep in mind, it was not I who decided the Hot Shot was a sports car, but the SCCVA (Sports Car Club of America) when they invited it to race innit's sanctioned event.

   More recently, the public seems to lean toward a powerful engine as being part of a "sports car", but this was not always true..especially back
    when the diminutive Hot Shot, took home the top trophy at Sebring..  Some tend to equate "sports car" with "muscle car", which are two different
   categories.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Now for your statement above;

 "s called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know"

   I have already given you credit for your apparent auitomotive experience..saying thing such as "If I want to know how to hook up a 3X 2 barrel
     carburetor, I would ask Lloyd".  Although I have done some mechanical work, I have little doubt but that you are far ahead of me in that field.

   I am however, surprised that you would place me in a favorable light concerning Biblical issues, your never having mentioned that before.

  ..But where do you get the idea that I crave to be an expert on everything?  In one sense, I do prefer to learn somnething new each day, but surely
   do not present myself as an expert in most fields...and I doub you can quote me anywhere stating such.  Matter of fact, I don't recall presenting
    myself here, as "expert" in any field.

  ...Sorry you have misunderstood...

[ironglow]

ill end this because i know you never admit your wrong. this post by you said that this was the first AMERICAN sports car. in America we call cars sports cars that are fast. dont much care that in england the only powerful cars are for the elite socialists. this was NOT the first american sports car because it isnt a sorts car and it isnt american. whats next? you going to call a 2 stroke saab a sports car? i think even they out out more power than that turd. mg might come closer and i even owned one. got a great deal on it from my lieutenant. it had 22k on it. sorry but it was a turd too. i put 4k on it and threw a rod trying to drive it like a sports car. cool thing is we swapped out the long block in the parking lot with an engine hoist called Lloyd. sold it a week later. now i will grudgingly call the newer miatas sports cars. i drove one and they have just enough grunt to be fun but the older ones were anemic girls cars. now there im done but doubt you are.   

its called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know

Lloyd;
   
  " a pinto should really excite you. vega gt? about make you pee your pants... "  It's just those type of crudities that cut your
    credibility and IMO exhibits your frustration. 
   When I see people resort to insult and accusations, I just figure they have 'run out of intellectual ammo', so why bother trying to reply?

 

     Not quite acurate Lloyd...  in the foregoing post, I never posted it claiming to be expert as such.  The terminology concerning what is a sports
    car, seems to be a mutually assumed thing by those in the game.

     It seems a "sports car" has little to do with brute horsepower, but leans more toward a "personal fun car" attitude, with engine power not coming           
     into the picture..  It would appear that high G cornering is rated higher than many other attributes.

   Look back at some of the well known sports car names, MG, Porsche, Singer, Corvette, Alfa Romeo, certain Fiats etc.   Not all hav ebeen powerful
    or fast. ...And keep in mind, it was not I who decided the Hot Shot was a sports car, but the SCCVA (Sports Car Club of America) when they invited it to race innit's sanctioned event.

   More recently, the public seems to lean toward a powerful engine as being part of a "sports car", but this was not always true..especially back
    when the diminutive Hot Shot, took home the top trophy at Sebring..  Some tend to equate "sports car" with "muscle car", which are two different
   categories.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Now for your statement above;

 "s called truth and from someone that forgot more about cars than you know. you might outbible me but your never going to out car me especially by posting a link to some guy in a tweed jacket. your problem is you crave being an expert on everything and it discredits you on even what you do know"

   I have already given you credit for your apparent auitomotive experience..saying thing such as "If I want to know how to hook up a 3X 2 barrel
     carburetor, I would ask Lloyd".  Although I have done some mechanical work, I have little doubt but that you are far ahead of me in that field.

   I am however, surprised that you would place me in a favorable light concerning Biblical issues, your never having mentioned that before.

  ..But where do you get the idea that I crave to be an expert on everything?  In one sense, I do prefer to learn somnething new each day, but surely
   do not present myself as an expert in most fields...and I doub you can quote me anywhere stating such.  Matter of fact, I don't recall presenting
    myself here, as "expert" in any field.

  ...Sorry you have misunderstood...

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Car number one....a sports car..       Car number two..NOT a sports car, even though it has more than twice the horsepower of car number one.

[Bob Riebe]

Just STOP it you two.

Sadly, nowadays, car rag writers , or wannabe car rag writers , are calling four seaters (technically in the old days Grand Touring  cars, sports cars also. -- ( Even though, TECHNICALLY, by the
United States Society of Automobile Engineers, could seat THREE people also.)

BUT if two seaters are what defines sports, two seaters from the get go were in reality the equivalent of the days sports cars.
Many were actively campaigned in oval and road races of those days, when such races were for hard core tough guys.

Not sure where the term Sports Car came from and am too lazy to look it up, but the Stutz Bear Cat should probably be called America's first sports car.

A Hotshot won the Sam Collier Memorial Endurance Grand Prix, (averaging 52 mph), as well as the "index of performance" — an award which took speed and engine size into account — at the 1950 Six Hours of Sebring; and a Siata 300 fitted with Crosley power won the SCCA's 12 hour Vero Beach race.

Siata 300


Hot Shot racer back in the day


Circa 2001


Crosley engine with performance set-up.