Author Topic: Handgun Stopping Power  (Read 2290 times)

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Offline nw_hunter

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Handgun Stopping Power
« on: January 13, 2024, 04:35:42 AM »

This, I think is a very well done article on stopping power of handguns. I believe the number 1 most important factor is shot placement. More important than the cal. of the gun.

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
3:00PM FRIDAY, JULY 08, 2011
by Greg Ellifritz

I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately, despite the fact that I was a college student and really couldn't afford its $39 price tag. Over the years I bought all of the rest of Marshall's books as well as anything else I could find on the subject. I even have a first edition of Gunshot Injuries by Louis Lagarde published in 1915.

Every source I read has different recommendations. Some say Marshall's data is genius. Some say it is statistically impossible. Some like big heavy bullets. Some like lighter, faster bullets. There isn't any consensus. The more I read, the more confused I get.

One thing I remember reading that made a lot of sense to me was an article by Massad Ayoob. He came out with his own stopping power data around the time Marshall published Handgun Stopping Power. In the article, Ayoob took his critics to task. He suggested that if people didn't believe his data, they should collect their own and do their own analysis. That made sense to me. So that's just what I did. I always had a slight problem with the methodology of Marshall and Sanow's work. For consistency purposes, they ONLY included hits to the torso and ONLY included cases where the person was hit with just a single round. Multiple hits screwed up their data, so they excluded them. This led to an unrealistically high stopping power percentage, because it factored out many of the cases where a person didn't stop! I wanted to look at hits anywhere on the body and get a realistic idea of actual stopping power, no matter how many hits it took to get it. So I started collecting data.

Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here.

Before I get to the details, I must give a warning. I don't have any dog in this fight! I don't sell ammo. I'm not being paid by any firearm or ammunition manufacturer. I carry a lot of different pistols for self defense. Within the last 2 weeks, I've carried a .22 magnum, a .380 auto, a .38 spl revolver, 3 different 9mm autos and a .45 auto. I don't have an axe to grind. If you are happy with your 9mm, I'm happy for you. If you think that everyone should be carrying a .45 (because they don't make a .46), I'm cool with that too. I'm just reporting the data. If you don't like it, take Mr. Ayoob's advice...do a study of your own.

A few notes on terminology:
Since it was my study, I got to determine the variables and their definitions. Here's what I looked at:

- Number of people shot

- Number of rounds that hit

- On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated? For this number, I included hits anywhere on the body. To be considered an immediate incapacitation, I used criteria similar to Marshall's. If the attacker was striking or shooting the victim, the round needed to immediately stop the attack without another blow being thrown or shot being fired. If the person shot was in the act of running (either towards or away from the shooter), he must have fallen to the ground within five feet.

I also excluded all cases of accidental shootings or suicides. Every shot in this study took place during a military battle or an altercation with a criminal.

- What percentage of shooting incidents resulted in fatalities. For this, I included only hits to the head or torso.

- What percentage of people were not incapacitated no matter how many rounds hit them

- Accuracy. What percentage of hits was in the head or torso. I tracked this to check if variations could affect stopping power. For example, if one caliber had a huge percentage of shootings resulting in arm hits, we may expect that the stopping power of that round wouldn’t look as good as a caliber where the majority of rounds hit the head.

- One shot stop percentage - number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall's number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.

- Percentage of people who were immediately stopped with one hit to the head or torso

Here are the results:
.25ACP
# of people shot - 68
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
One-shot-stop % - 30%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

.22 (short, long and long rifle)
# of people shot - 154
# of hits - 213
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
One-shot-stop % - 31%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)
# of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%

.380 ACP
# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.38 Special
# of people shot - 199
# of hits - 373
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87
% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

9mm Luger
# of people shot - 456
# of hits - 1121
% of hits that were fatal - 24%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 34%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

.357 (both magnum and Sig)
# of people shot - 105
# of hits - 179
% of hits that were fatal - 34%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%

.40 S&W
# of people shot - 188
# of hits - 443
% of hits that were fatal - 25%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 45%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%

.45 ACP
# of people shot - 209
# of hits - 436
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08
% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%
One-shot-stop % - 39%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

.44 Magnum
# of people shot - 24
# of hits - 41
% of hits that were fatal - 26%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71
% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%
One-shot-stop % - 59%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%

Rifle (all Centerfire)
# of people shot - 126
# of hits - 176
% of hits that were fatal - 68%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.4
% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 80%

Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)
# of people shot - 146
# of hits - 178
% of hits that were fatal - 65%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22
% of people who were not incapacitated - 12%
One-shot-stop % - 58%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%

Discussion:
I really would have liked to break it down by individual bullet type, but I didn't have enough data points to reach a level of statistical significance. Getting accurate data on nearly 1800 shootings was hard work. I couldn't imagine breaking it down farther than what I did here. I also believe the data for the .25, .32 and .44 magnum should be viewed with suspicion. I simply don't have enough data (in comparison to the other calibers) to draw an accurate comparison. I reported the data I have, but I really don't believe that a .32 ACP incapacitates people at a higher rate than the .45 ACP!

One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet. I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate, but you can make that decision for yourself based on the data presented.

Some interesting findings:
I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit.

The average number of rounds until incapacitation was also remarkably similar between calibers. All the common defensive calibers required around 2 rounds on average to incapacitate. Something else to look at here is the question of how fast can the rounds be fired out of each gun. The .38 SPL probably has the slowest rate of fire (long double action revolver trigger pulls and stout recoil in small revolvers) and the fewest rounds fired to get an incapacitation (1.87). Conversely the 9mm can probably be fired fastest of the common calibers and it had the most rounds fired to get an incapacitation (2.45). The .40 (2.36) and the .45 (2.08) split the difference. It is my personal belief that there really isn't much difference between each of these calibers. It is only the fact that some guns can be fired faster than others that causes the perceived difference in stopping power. If a person takes an average of 5 seconds to stop after being hit, the defender who shoots a lighter recoiling gun can get more hits in that time period. It could be that fewer rounds would have stopped the attacker (given enough time) but the ability to fire more quickly resulted in more hits being put onto the attacker. It may not have anything to do with the stopping power of the round.

Another data piece that leads me to believe that the majority of commonly carried defensive rounds are similar in stopping power is the fact that all four have very similar failure rates. If you look at the percentage of shootings that did not result in incapacitation, the numbers are almost identical. The .38, 9mm, .40, and .45 all had failure rates of between 13% and 17%.

Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...

In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this.

One other factor to consider is that the majority of these shootings did NOT involve shooting through intermediate barriers, cover or heavy clothing. If you anticipate having to do this in your life (i.e. you are a police officer and may have to shoot someone in a car), again, I would lean towards the larger or more powerful rounds.

What I believe that my numbers show is that in the majority of shootings, the person shot merely gives up without being truly incapacitated by the bullet. In such an event, almost any bullet will perform admirably. If you want to be prepared to deal with someone who won't give up so easily, or you want to be able to have good performance even after shooting through an intermediate barrier, I would skip carrying the "mouse gun" .22s, .25s and .32s.

Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.

Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation
Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation
Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.

No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!

Conclusion:
This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

You may also enjoy this Greg Ellifritz story: A Parent's Guide to School Shootings

Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute.

For more information or to contact Greg, visit his training site at Active Response Training.

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Online gene_225

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2024, 04:57:58 AM »
Thanks for posting this.

Online ironglow

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2024, 05:03:37 AM »
Interesting to note...that there is not that great a spread.

  One particularly interesting figure is "how many shots to incapacitation'.  After all, the aim is to stop..or incapacitate..

  Obviously shot placement is critical, whether for defense or hunting..  High power doesn't negate shot placement..a miss by a .45
   is not as effective as a hit by a .22 short !

    Perhaps the reason the light calibers hold their own, is the "controllability " factor.  I suspect that those who diligently peractice with a
  heavy caliber, has a definite advantage.  However, most carriers do not practice that assiduously.

   Even with experienced shooters...do you the reader, think you can group a .357  or .44 mag as well as you can say, a Buck Mark .22 ?

  Perhaps some can, but I can't ! ...Which is why I may carry my 642 S&W with hydro shock rounds or my Walther PPQ, and be as comfortable with
  one as with the other.

   I know I can place head shots more efficiently with the Walther.

  So far as the shorter barrel .22s are concerned..hollow point makes little or no difference, since the hollow point is not likely to mushroom at short
   barrel speeds.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline DDZ

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2024, 12:12:24 PM »
Good article. I have always thought a shotgun is best for stopping someone, but then you can't put a shotgun on your hip for CC.
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Online ironglow

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2024, 04:06:17 PM »
Good article. I have always thought a shotgun is best for stopping someone, but then you can't put a shotgun on your hip for CC.

  No doubt about the shotgun effectiveness..  Good idea for hjome self defense, and if there are toddlers in the house, single shot, break action would be enough in most cases.

  The gun can be kept hand, while rounds can be placed nearby, but high out of reach for the kiddies..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2024, 05:01:13 PM »
His sample size was too small to draw definitive conclusions.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline nw_hunter

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2024, 05:08:37 PM »
I believe the gun you should carry is the one you shoot best. By best, that includes accuracy and speed. Not machine gun fast, but controlled speed. With today's high capacity mag pistols and ammo suited for the task, most calibers will do the job. IMO!
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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2024, 12:04:01 AM »
Interesting "LE data".  Now why did he call it that?

The chance of "multiple civilians" settling a fight with a gun is speculated as "slim" compared to LE "finishing" the job, since civilians cause nearly ALL "confrontations" which puts LE in-harm's way...

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2024, 06:43:47 AM »
   Even with experienced shooters...do you the reader, think you can group a .357  or .44 mag as well as you can say, a Buck Mark .22 ?
  Given guns of equal accuracy, for me...  YES.

  DM

Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2024, 10:22:47 AM »

   Even with experienced shooters...do you the reader, think you can group a .357  or .44 mag as well as you can say, a Buck Mark .22 ?

As a matter of fact I can, and have proven it many times.

Now, while I've always preferred the 357 magnum, old age arthritis has moved me to the 9mm in a Sig platform.
However,  I will admit that the famous pistolero Bill Hickok preferred a pair of 36s. Quite inferior to todays hollowpoint 9mms, so maybe I'll be OK.  8)
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2024, 10:52:50 PM »
some of the best off hand groups of my life were with a 1911 45acp. i shot the in ppc and bullseye. i can stand on my own 2 feet and shoot as well with a 454, 475 or 500 linebaugh as i can with a 22. if you cant you havent put in the time and dont measure others by your low skill level. 45s 40s and 9s are pop guns. shoot a hundred rounds of even full power 44mags then pick up a 1911 and shoot a mag and youll see how much of a baby youve been. every week shooting comp probably 25% of the shooters were women and most of them shot 45s.

as to that list some of it i dont really agree with like the 22 short being more effective then a 25acp. to me thats ridiculous. but i do agree with the 40 and 45 being superior to the 9. every one always says the 9 was made equal because the now load it with high tech bullets. what they dont say is the 40 and 45 use those same bullets. kind of unfair to compare a 9 with gold dots to ball round nose 45s. load them both with gold dots and if you were forced to chose and the hospital was 15 minutes away what would you choose? youd have to have a screw loose to pick that big old 45. im no ballistics expert but i do have common sense.
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Online ironglow

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2024, 02:36:39 AM »


      From Lloyd..;

  " . i can stand on my own 2 feet and shoot as well with a 454, 475 or 500 linebaugh as i can with a 22. if you cant you havent put in
   the time and dont measure others by your low skill level.


  Lloyd, always ready to insult!  He could have left it at.. 
  " i can stand on my own 2 feet and shoot as well with a 454, 475 or 500 linebaugh as i can with a 22."

  ..But no, he had to add;
           " if you cant you havent put in the time and dont measure others by your low skill level."

  Which leaves me wondering why he felt obliged to malign and disparage.. when a simple, polite answer would suffice?

       If he had asked politely, I would have told him he likely shoots his handguns more often and more effectively than I..       
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2024, 05:46:35 AM »
its nothing but fact. dont shoot a big gun regularly you wont shoot it well. dont shoot a 22 regularly you wont shoot it well. obviously your in the group that doesnt shoot enough. you admitted it in your post. my problem is you want to judge others by your own skill. if you cant do it and dont care thats fine but dont lump me or someone like dee thats put 10s of thousands of rounds down range along with you. ive carried 10mms 357s and even my 3in n frame 44mag concealed many times and i pray that if i get into a gunfight im up against someone like you that uses a small gun and probably isnt much good with even it because he might shoot a box of 22s 3 or 4 times a year and i was fortunate enough to have grabbed a big gun that day. . if my post offended you then id about bet your shooting skills are lacking. one things for sure there isnt one in a million thats a natural. its a skill that takes work. i dont claim to be the best.i have a couple friend that outshoot me. but they too have put in the time. if anything im a naturally poor shooter that had to work harder than they did to stand next to them shooting without being embarrassed. politely ;) you better find a different forum because theres big boys here and ive seen you attack as much as anyone
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2024, 09:44:34 AM »
I once was capable of shooting one inch or less groups free hand at 25 yards with either .357 or .22 revolvers. I could do about as well with my .44 magnum as well. But in those days I shot a LOT, hundreds of rounds each shooting outing. I did a lot of metallic silhouette competition back then.

These days my hands are eat up with arthritis and I've had to retire the magnums. I thought that day would never come but it has.

I am still able to shoot .38s, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp as well as .44 Special and .45 Colt in my Rugers and S&W Model 69. I cannot however shoot magnums in that little M69. I also can't shoot magnums in my 3" M60 but still can in my 6" Model 66.

My standard now is to shoot 8" falling plates at 25 yards rather than those tiny little .22 rifle chickens we used to shoot for money games.

My shooting is so much less these days that my skill has diminished a lot from my competition days and I know it and accept it. Shooting skill requires a lot of shooting to maintain.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!
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Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2024, 10:45:58 AM »
I once was capable of shooting one inch or less groups free hand at 25 yards with either .357 or .22 revolvers. I could do about as well with my .44 magnum as well. But in those days I shot a LOT, hundreds of rounds each shooting outing. I did a lot of metallic silhouette competition back then.

These days my hands are eat up with arthritis and I've had to retire the magnums. I thought that day would never come but it has.

I am still able to shoot .38s, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp as well as .44 Special and .45 Colt in my Rugers and S&W Model 69. I cannot however shoot magnums in that little M69. I also can't shoot magnums in my 3" M60 but still can in my 6" Model 66.

My standard now is to shoot 8" falling plates at 25 yards rather than those tiny little .22 rifle chickens we used to shoot for money games.

My shooting is so much less these days that my skill has diminished a lot from my competition days and I know it and accept it. Shooting skill requires a lot of shooting to maintain.

I guess you could count the times I've shot bullseye type shooting on 1 hand. Had a cop friend once that shot on the Texas National Guard pistol, and rifle team. He was always wanting me to shoot a bullseye match with him. Claimed he'd show me how to shoot. He out shot me a couple of times, but the rest of the time not so much. He finally gave up, and I got bored.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2024, 11:36:33 AM »
Myself and my shooting buddies formed a team and competed against the ROTC teams at the local university one year. I think it lasted about 10 weeks or so. Our raw scores beat he crap out of the rest of them but they used some kind of weighted average kinda deal that let folks who shot no where near as well as us come in ahead of us.

In the end out team came in 3rd of perhaps 12-15 teams. I came in #7 of all the folks who competed. I think teams were five people or maybe six, can't recall.

This was bullseye competition with .22LR handguns. Most shot High Standard or S&W M41 but a few other guns were used. All shot semiautos. Kinda hard to shoot a timed match of ten shots with a six shot revolver.

Their scoring method gave primary credit to improvement over previous score. Since we were all excellent shots when we began we didn't make much improvement week to week and just had to stand on our raw scores.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Online ironglow

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2024, 04:16:27 PM »
its nothing but fact. dont shoot a big gun regularly you wont shoot it well. dont shoot a 22 regularly you wont shoot it well. obviously your in the group that doesnt shoot enough. you admitted it in your post.   
   Look back, nobody is  disputing that !

   my problem is you want to judge others by your own skill. if you cant do it and dont care thats fine but dont lump me or someone like dee thats put 10s of thousands of rounds down range along with you. ive carried 10mms 357s and even my 3in n frame 44mag concealed many times and i pray that if i get into a gunfight im up against someone like you that uses a small gun and probably isnt much good with even it because he might shoot a box of 22s 3 or 4 times a year and i was fortunate enough to have grabbed a big gun that day. .

   Hummm..ennui..  Again, nobody is disputing your boasts ! if my post offended you then id about bet your shooting skills are lacking. one things for sure there isnt one in a million thats a natural. its a skill that takes work. i dont claim to be the best.i have a couple friend that outshoot me. but they too have put in the time. if anything im a naturally poor shooter that had to work harder than they did to stand next to them shooting without being embarrassed. politely ;) you better find a different forum because theres big boys here and ive seen you attack as much as anyone  I'll be from Missouri today..."show me" !when I last used an ad hominem attack !

   Nope..here's the point I made i Reply #11;

   
  ..But no, he had to add;
           " if you cant you havent put in the time and dont measure others by your low skill level."

  Which leaves me wondering why he felt obliged to malign and disparage.. when a simple, polite answer would suffice?

       If he had asked politely, I would have told him he likely shoots his handguns more often and more effectively than I.. 
`

  So, please address that point...  I didn't address you so rudely, so why strike out like that?  If you get stressed out..try a few deep breaths
    before typing a reply...

  Better yet, why not we both start acting more like gentlemen, be respectful and more circumspect in our answers?

If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2024, 12:43:54 AM »
your honest. you know someone that shoots can shoot a big gun as well as a small one unless you have some pyhsical problems that limit it. you also know shooting good requires actually shooting. heck im not much on the linebaughs anymore. especially after having my left hand about crushed last winter. but i still can do minute of deer at 50 yards
I once was capable of shooting one inch or less groups free hand at 25 yards with either .357 or .22 revolvers. I could do about as well with my .44 magnum as well. But in those days I shot a LOT, hundreds of rounds each shooting outing. I did a lot of metallic silhouette competition back then.

These days my hands are eat up with arthritis and I've had to retire the magnums. I thought that day would never come but it has.

I am still able to shoot .38s, 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp as well as .44 Special and .45 Colt in my Rugers and S&W Model 69. I cannot however shoot magnums in that little M69. I also can't shoot magnums in my 3" M60 but still can in my 6" Model 66.

My standard now is to shoot 8" falling plates at 25 yards rather than those tiny little .22 rifle chickens we used to shoot for money games.

My shooting is so much less these days that my skill has diminished a lot from my competition days and I know it and accept it. Shooting skill requires a lot of shooting to maintain.
blue lives matter

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2024, 12:45:46 AM »
we had a rimfire class and a centerfire class. same guys that were in the top 5 with rimfires were in the top 5 with centerfires.
Myself and my shooting buddies formed a team and competed against the ROTC teams at the local university one year. I think it lasted about 10 weeks or so. Our raw scores beat he crap out of the rest of them but they used some kind of weighted average kinda deal that let folks who shot no where near as well as us come in ahead of us.

In the end out team came in 3rd of perhaps 12-15 teams. I came in #7 of all the folks who competed. I think teams were five people or maybe six, can't recall.

This was bullseye competition with .22LR handguns. Most shot High Standard or S&W M41 but a few other guns were used. All shot semiautos. Kinda hard to shoot a timed match of ten shots with a six shot revolver.

Their scoring method gave primary credit to improvement over previous score. Since we were all excellent shots when we began we didn't make much improvement week to week and just had to stand on our raw scores.
blue lives matter

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2024, 12:48:54 AM »
get over yourself and your touchy-feely feelings. 
its nothing but fact. dont shoot a big gun regularly you wont shoot it well. dont shoot a 22 regularly you wont shoot it well. obviously your in the group that doesnt shoot enough. you admitted it in your post.   
   Look back, nobody is  disputing that !

   my problem is you want to judge others by your own skill. if you cant do it and dont care thats fine but dont lump me or someone like dee thats put 10s of thousands of rounds down range along with you. ive carried 10mms 357s and even my 3in n frame 44mag concealed many times and i pray that if i get into a gunfight im up against someone like you that uses a small gun and probably isnt much good with even it because he might shoot a box of 22s 3 or 4 times a year and i was fortunate enough to have grabbed a big gun that day. .

   Hummm..ennui..  Again, nobody is disputing your boasts ! if my post offended you then id about bet your shooting skills are lacking. one things for sure there isnt one in a million thats a natural. its a skill that takes work. i dont claim to be the best.i have a couple friend that outshoot me. but they too have put in the time. if anything im a naturally poor shooter that had to work harder than they did to stand next to them shooting without being embarrassed. politely ;) you better find a different forum because theres big boys here and ive seen you attack as much as anyone  I'll be from Missouri today..."show me" !when I last used an ad hominem attack !

   Nope..here's the point I made i Reply #11;

   
  ..But no, he had to add;
           " if you cant you havent put in the time and dont measure others by your low skill level."

  Which leaves me wondering why he felt obliged to malign and disparage.. when a simple, polite answer would suffice?

       If he had asked politely, I would have told him he likely shoots his handguns more often and more effectively than I.. 
`

  So, please address that point...  I didn't address you so rudely, so why strike out like that?  If you get stressed out..try a few deep breaths
    before typing a reply...

  Better yet, why not we both start acting more like gentlemen, be respectful and more circumspect in our answers?
blue lives matter

Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2024, 12:54:38 AM »
its nothing but fact. dont shoot a big gun regularly you wont shoot it well. dont shoot a 22 regularly you wont shoot it well. obviously your in the group that doesnt shoot enough. you admitted it in your post.   
   Look back, nobody is  disputing that !

   my problem is you want to judge others by your own skill. if you cant do it and dont care thats fine but dont lump me or someone like dee thats put 10s of thousands of rounds down range along with you. ive carried 10mms 357s and even my 3in n frame 44mag concealed many times and i pray that if i get into a gunfight im up against someone like you that uses a small gun and probably isnt much good with even it because he might shoot a box of 22s 3 or 4 times a year and i was fortunate enough to have grabbed a big gun that day. .

   Hummm..ennui..  Again, nobody is disputing your boasts ! if my post offended you then id about bet your shooting skills are lacking. one things for sure there isnt one in a million thats a natural. its a skill that takes work. i dont claim to be the best.i have a couple friend that outshoot me. but they too have put in the time. if anything im a naturally poor shooter that had to work harder than they did to stand next to them shooting without being embarrassed. politely ;) you better find a different forum because theres big boys here and ive seen you attack as much as anyone  I'll be from Missouri today..."show me" !when I last used an ad hominem attack !

   Nope..here's the point I made i Reply #11;

   
  ..But no, he had to add;
           " if you cant you havent put in the time and dont measure others by your low skill level."

  Which leaves me wondering why he felt obliged to malign and disparage.. when a simple, polite answer would suffice?

       If he had asked politely, I would have told him he likely shoots his handguns more often and more effectively than I.. 
`

  So, please address that point...  I didn't address you so rudely, so why strike out like that?  If you get stressed out..try a few deep breaths
    before typing a reply...

  Better yet, why not we both start acting more like gentlemen, be respectful and more circumspect in our answers?

I personally think you should carry what you're comfortable with, whether its a 44 mag, or a switch. I did shoot thousands and thousands of pistol, rifle, and shotgun, but it was my job, and not everyone can or wants to. You don't have to be a bullseye marksman to defend yourself. A sheet of typing paper is a good reasonable size practice size for center mass.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2024, 03:22:04 AM »
agreed as long as your practicing hitting that sheet of paper in different positions along with drawing and shooting from a holster, clearing malfunctions and reloading in different positions and all of it with some stress thrown in. shooting small groups is for competition hitting center mass quickly with your heart pounding is for the real world. but i fear if the biggest gun you can shoot accurately is a 22 then you sure as crap aren't ready to defend your family. best leave that 22 in the safe and rely on you 12 guage and even that is no guarantee unless you practice with it. you might be better off with that stick. shooting be it competitive or combat REQUIRES PRACTICE. but telling me that an experienced shooter cant shoot a pop gun like a 357 as well as a 22 is just silly. its like the guys that will say something stupid like guys hunting elk and moose with magnum rifles are arm dragging rednecks because all they can handle is a 308 and truth be told struggle with that
blue lives matter

Online ironglow

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2024, 04:07:23 AM »
agreed as long as your practicing hitting that sheet of paper in different positions along with drawing and shooting from a holster, clearing malfunctions and reloading in different positions and all of it with some stress thrown in. shooting small groups is for competition hitting center mass quickly with your heart pounding is for the real world. but i fear if the biggest gun you can shoot accurately is a 22 then you sure as crap aren't ready to defend your family. best leave that 22 in the safe and rely on you 12 guage and even that is no guarantee unless you practice with it. you might be better off with that stick. shooting be it competitive or combat REQUIRES PRACTICE. but telling me that an experienced shooter cant shoot a pop gun like a 357 as well as a 22 is just silly. its like the guys that will say something stupid like guys hunting elk and moose with magnum rifles are arm dragging rednecks because all they can handle is a 308 and truth be told struggle with that
   Sorry about our poor communication...I never said or implied that I cannot hit  my targets very well..I just do not consider myself to be an expert
 pistol shooter.  ...No point indulging in fantasy, since I am not prone to boasting, but I consider my accuracy as acceptable since if need be , I can
  place at least 9 out of 10 Velociter CCIs in a grapefruit at 7 yards.

  I have a couple grandsons who can do that at 50 yards..  Perhaps you didn't notice, but I mentioned that I also carry a S&W 642 with +P...don't
  take too much by assumption..

  So I gues I should add, pistols are not my favorite firearms, since I enjoy rifles much more..so I don't work with them that much.

  I have never tried competion, the closest thing being qualifying inn the Army..  There, I qualified expert, at ranges up to 550 meters.. under
   varying conditions.

  There were only 3 qualified experts in that company of 250 soldiers... Does that qualify as "competition"..?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2024, 07:57:18 AM »

   Soirry about our poor communication...I never said or implied that i cannot hit  my targets very well..I just do not consider myself to be an expert
 pistol shooter.  ...No point indulging in fantasy, since I am not prone to boasting, but I consider my accuracy as acceptable since if need be , I can
  place at least 9 out of 10 Velociter CCIs in a grapefruit at 7 yards.

  I have a couple grandsons who can do that at 50 yards..  Perhaps you didn't notice, but I mentioned that I also carr a S&W 642 with +P...don't take
    too much by assumption..

  So I gues I should add, pistols are not my favorite firearms, since I enjoy rifles much more..so I don't work with them that much.

  I have never tried competion, the closest thing being qualifying inn the Army..  There, I qualified expert, at ranges up to 550 meters.. under
   varying conditions.

  There were only 3 qualified experts in that company of 250 soldiers... Does that qualify as "competition"..?

Truth is ig, I've seen some excellent range shooters that couldn't or wouldn't hook up in a real fight.  In 78 an 8 year veteran Sgt standing less than 10 feet from me never fired a shot from an 870 Remington he was holding when the fight started.
I ended it with 5 rounds. When interviewed by investigators he had no answer to his lack of support. And yes, he had an unobstructed view of the incident.
He had for years assured everyone listening that he would fight, but had never had to back up his bravado. If you can hit that sheet of typing paper with your 22 you'll be fine. The real obstacle is pulling that trigger, and not many will.
I'm 74 years old, and I'm not diving over car hoods,  chasing boogers down alleys, or standing on my head. I'll step away from the trouble if they'll let me, or behind something if I have a chance, but if not, I'll do what I've done before. Stand there and fight. I suspect you're in the same position I'm in, so just pay attention to what's going on around you.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Online gypsyman

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2024, 04:36:05 PM »
 Like Greybeard, shot a lot of sillywets years back. Not much in the last 10 years, most of my shooting buddies have passed. I told one young man in Bible study a year ago or so, he asked me what handgun he should get. Caliber, brand, etc. I told him, have your dad take you to one of the indoor range's we have close by, try a couple, and see what feels right in your hand. With todays ballistics, as stated by IG in one of his posts, shot placement is more important. Practice, which I haven't done enough of in the past year.
We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Online ironglow

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2024, 04:49:34 PM »
Although I have weapons to carry, I don't always carry.  I truthfully don't expect to find any gunfights where I live..although I do usually  carry if I have to go to the city for any reason.

  The primary place I carry near home, is in church..an dhave done trhat after seeing how the crazies tend to shoot up churches or synagogs,
   aiming especially for country churches.

  The massacre at sutherland Springs church...was a real wakeup call for me, along with that mad trans who shot the children in a Christian school in Nashville..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2024, 01:12:39 AM »
Thou shalt not murder is not the same as kill. which is a mistranslation
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett
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Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2024, 01:43:10 AM »
John Chapter 15 verse 13. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

There has always been a lot more sheep, than sheep dogs. I prefer the latter assignment. Even in my old age.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2024, 01:56:27 AM »
Ok, If thats the way you read it.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Dee

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Re: Handgun Stopping Power
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2024, 02:40:06 AM »


why does everything wrote in the bible have to be scrutinized and plain words need to be changed by man

i know im probably not correct but i tried carrying in church and didnt feel comfortable with all that thou shall not kills stuff being taught. i do have a pistol in every vehicle and an ar in 3 out of 4 of them but im realistic enough to realize im probably not going to get to them. like you i live in a real low crime area but it could happen. i guess if God wants me what better place to have it happen.



Lloyd, it doesn't matter to me what you do concerning gun carry, but you brought up scripture, and I responded. Nobody is required to see it your way. Your not agreeing with me, doesn't make me wrong, and the issue is only an issue, if you make it one.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett