The Crusades..right or wrong ?

[ironglow]

  It has become fashionable to condemn the Crusades as a cruel, undeserved attack upon Islamists in the Holy Land.  Nothing could be further from t
  he truth.  Without a doubt, they were often poorly sponsored, run and commanded...buit still a noble enterprise.

  First I want to make an announcement that wil shock some... DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON THE INTERNET !!  There I said it ! 


   ..And additionally....  DON'T TRY TO LEARN HISTORY FROM THE MOVIES !  If you do, you will find yourself to be a non sequitur in any discussion
    of history..

    Back in 2005 a movie came out called THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, in which so many "artistic liberties" were taken, so as to make the movie a dark
      fairy tale.    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0320661/

   That was a Hollywood movie..and generally speaking, Hollywood despises Christians.  So think, if you are to learn anything about
     Christians..or anybody else..should you consult only their enemies?

   The truth?  The Crusades were brought upon the Islamists, by their own choice and actions.

  The facts; Christianity was born with the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ...approximately 30 AD.   The Apostles almost immediately went forth,
     establishing churches, throughout the Roman Empire.  The Roman Empire covered much of the mideast, all nations around the Mediterranean
  including Spain.. ..And reached as far as today's England, wales and Scotland,  The Roman Empire also brought Christianity with it.
  See Map below..

  Islam was not invented by Mohammed until about 620 AD....but it almost immediately went on it's own "crusade" which said "convert or die"..
  And they expanded greatly...   Of course, taking Spain was not enough...so the Islamist forces moved ito tha Frankish empire (France) in 732AD.
  Thankfully, Charles Martel, or "Charles the Hammer" (Charlemagne's grandfather)..handed them their heads at the Battle of Tours (France}

  See map below

  So the Islamists kept forcing borders and challenging western Europe wherever they could...continuing to shed much Christian blood on a regular
    and routine basis...they had to be stopped..  Growing tired of fighting daily battles through the years, Christians decided to do an "end around"
     and strike nearer the serpent's head...in Jerusalem.

     So the Crusades started...it was that..or let the butchers over run all of Christianity..  So, next time some lefty or wokist tries to sell you the
    false story...tell them to "can it", then share the real truth.

[Lloyd Smale]

their crusade has never ended

[ironglow]

their crusade has never ended

  No, it still continues..more now by infiltration, than by direct military action..at least for here and now.  They take over whole neighborhoods and congregate, until they can elect THEIR people to congress.  e.g. Rep  Ilhan Omar and Rep Rashid Tlaib, and use our  laws for freedom as ways to
  attack our country.
 
  The UK has an even greater problem..so many there have left Christianity, that the churches are bought at fire sale prices and turned into mosques.

  ..Nothing quite like surrending to the enemy without a struggle...

[scattershot]

Guess it depends on which side you were on, but it was a long time ago.

[darkgael]

Guess it depends on which side you were on, but it was a long time ago.

A long time ago for sure. The ninth crusade was launched in 1271, nearly 12 centuries ago.

[Bob Riebe]

Historians, has become a meaningless word since people named as such,  have stopped trying to,  learn/learn from,  history , to forcing their political doctrine into history, whilst ONLY looking for what displeases them, and ignoring that which they cannot condemn.

One of their favorite phrases is: Yes this, xyz, happened, BUT....

The new series, Masters of the Air, is supposed to tell what happened in the Air Corp in WW II, but their have already been several on-line articles about how badly they changed history , to show, what they wanted to show.

SO, as history has been changed, or the actual truth ignored, in current telling of history, what the Crusades were really like, or what was REALLY happening in all of the World, not cherry picked items god wannabes leeach on,  is becoming the victim of time and predudice.

It took another 200 years before Christians turned on them selves full on,, but those 200 years were the darkest of the Dark Ages, which God let man fall into because he has let man suffer his owm stupidity since the day Adam showed he was a dork.

[darkgael]

he has let man suffer his owm stupidity since the day Adam showed he was a dork.

Now there is one for discussion. Why  has mankind through the ages been condemned to suffer the wages of a sin committed by their forebear.

[Bob Riebe]

he has let man suffer his owm stupidity since the day Adam showed he was a dork.

Now there is one for discussion. Why  has mankind through the ages been condemned to suffer the wages of a sin committed by their forebear.

Adam was created without sin, as was Eve; they sinned and their children will inherit the sinful nature of their father.
IF, if a child never commited one sin in ones life, that would be a perfect child that would not suffer a sinful fate, but no man, with the exception of Jesus was able to do so.

Where the Bible Mentions "Sins of the Father"

The phrase, "sins of the fathers" appears in the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy and Exodus. The phrase also appears in the book of Numbers and in Jeremiah. So, the phrase is linked to the keeping of the commandments and the consequences of sin passing through the generations. But the phrase is also a concept that is observed; sin does have consequences. The children of those who sin do in fact inherit the seed of sin and the sin nature. Moreover, certain sins carry intergenerational consequences. One thinks of abuse, alcoholism, and other sins of personal assault, violations of the image of God in the human being. Let's examine the quotes from Scripture:

 “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me” (Exodus 20:5).

“The Lord is long-suffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation” (Numbers 14:18).

“ For I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, and doing mercy to thousands of those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Deuteronomy 5:9-10)

 “Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you. You show love to thousands but bring the punishment for the parents’ sins into the laps of their children after them. Great and mighty God, whose name is the Lord Almighty” (Jeremiah 32:17-18).

Jesus life, suffering and death as a man, as he was fully man, by doing so without he bought salvation for any one who believe he who he says he is and accepts his words, simply by Faith, can even though mankind is wrought with sin, by nature, in the end have eternal life of joy and none suffering.

Any one who accepts word of God fully, may no lead a happy, happy, happy, joy, joy, joy life on earth but Jesus will help those deal with the stink hole man has turned the Earth and society into, BUT, those who reject God's Words -- INCLUDING,  just accepting what they like and rejecting that which they do not like, no matter how seemingly nice a person they are -- will earn God's wrath or simply be ignored by God and left to suffer their own stupidity having just rewards.

[ironglow]

he has let man suffer his owm stupidity since the day Adam showed he was a dork.

Now there is one for discussion. Why  has mankind through the ages been condemned to suffer the wages of a sin committed by their forebear.

  Adam & Eve brought down the curse upon us through their disobedience..

  "  16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Gen 3:16-19)

  ..But far beyond that, we each individually owe God a debt for our own sins which WE have committed..

  "And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission." (Hebrews 9:22)

   ..Buty God wanted one offering to forgive all sin for all time.  The blood of Bulls or sheep was not sacred enough to accomplish this..but the blood
     of his only begotten Son, was sacred enough to  accomplish this task.

  So that is exactly what Jesus did..He shed His own blood as a payment for OUR sins..If we turn from our sins and ask Him to forgive us for our
   wrongdoings, we can partake of this forgiveness.   He takes the rap for us...if we will but repent and claim Him as our Savior.

  Check out (Hebrews 9)

[ironglow]

Guess it depends on which side you were on, but it was a long time ago.

A long time ago for sure. The ninth crusade was launched in 1271, nearly 12 centuries ago.

 Isn't that more like 8 centuries ago?

[darkgael]

Do you mean that we are not in 2471? Oops.

[darkgael]

   ..But far beyond that, we each individually owe God a debt for our own sins which WE have committed..

Have never understood how that applies to newborns.
If we owe a debt for our sins, what exactly did Christ die for? The collective debt of mankind?

[ironglow]

   ..But far beyond that, we each individually owe God a debt for our own sins which WE have committed..

Have never understood how that applies to newborns. It doesn't count against newborns, but when they come to the age of accountability..
If we owe a debt for our sins, what exactly did Christ die for? The collective debt of mankind?  Basically yes..but moreover, for our individual sins

      If you have read the OT, you then know trhat animal sacrifices were offered for forgiveness of sins for a given period, but with the new covenant,
   God decided that there would be a single blood offering for all sin, for all time.

  Naturally, the blood of an ox or pigeon, was only good enough for a temporary fix, so He needed a very exceptional, especially pure blood to atone f
   or our sins.
   The only blood sacred enough to do the job..was the God blood flowing in Jesus' veins.

  Here, Dr William Lane Craig explains to Richard Rohr, why the blood sacrifice is necessary...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ta-D-hdcFg

   For further clarification, read Hebrews, chapters 9 and 10..  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+9-10&version=NKJV

   

[Bob Riebe]

   ..But far beyond that, we each individually owe God a debt for our own sins which WE have committed..

Have never understood how that applies to newborns.
If we owe a debt for our sins, what exactly did Christ die for? The collective debt of mankind?

We are born withthe nature of sin, that does not mean that little children go to hell. In that case ignorance is bliss.

But the nature f sin that casuses the Lord to put his wrath on thei offspring is in the biology that mean an innocent child is born with biological/psychological short comings that God does not condone: homosexuality, pedophile, brutality (beating women/children, murderous nature etc.) narcissism.
Jesus wept for the Jewish people knowing what was going to happen to them for what they did to him, but there was no undoing.

How does he deal with them for eternity, I will say, I DO NOT ACTUALLY KNOW, but some people are simply born evil and are condemned from birth.
Remember Jesus said of Judas, it would have been better for him,  if he was never born.

[darkgael]

One further note……this conversation is trending quite far from the Crusades. if it continues, it should probably have its own thread.

We are born with the nature of sin

I have heard/read this before. It is a very negative statement about the human condition. Where does that idea originate?

[Lloyd Smale]

huh we have a new moderator

[ironglow]

One further note……this conversation is trending quite far from the Crusades. if it continues, it should probably have its own thread.

We are born with the nature of sin

I have heard/read this before. It is a very negative statement about the human condition. Where does that idea originate?

  It is a negative statement about the human condition..  God placed Adam in the garden to care for it and live forever..noticing his lonely condition,
    God gave to him a mate. and they were to enjoy the beautiful and vast garden forever.  ...But since He also granted them free will, He had one
    stipulation.... stay away from that one tree !

 I guess we all know what happened then... So A&E blew it !  Thus, we are a fallen creation,  carrying that original sin, so to say.. in our DNA.

     ..But that is not the primary sin problem; carrying forward, we have ouir own "earned" load of sin, any of which could condemn us.

     " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Romans 3:23)

     We cannot 'work' our way out of sin..  "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,
  by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"  (Titus 3:5)

   Although good works are expected of the Christian, in fact, all our good works are useles toward our salvation..

     "
  " But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."  (Isaiah 64:6)

       There is only one way to Heaven, and that is by grace alone, through Jesus alone.

  Now, let's go back to the politics of the crusades.   

  Just as the Muslim encroachments are going on today, so they did back in the 7th and 8th centuries, and they have not given up their aim.

   Sure, with the fall of the Ottoman empire, most of Islam seemed to go on a route of coexistence, but that was cast aside by Wahabism,
  led by the Ayatollah, which Carter alowed to displace and replace, the Shah of Iran.

     Just as at Tours in 732 and in Israel in 2023, the islamists do not respect any form of coexistence...but they do respect the application of force.

 

[Dixie-Dude]

The Crusades lead to a demand in Europe for spices and silks.  The Arabs were getting them from India and selling them to Europe making a huge profit.  This lead to the age of exploration.  Going around Africa to India or finally going west and discovering America. 

[Bob Riebe]

One further note……this conversation is trending quite far from the Crusades. if it continues, it should probably have its own thread.

We are born with the nature of sin

I have heard/read this before. It is a very negative statement about the human condition. Where does that idea originate?

Adam and Eve sinned, it is all in the genes, more or less.
Cannot be avoided.
Jesus Father was not a man so he had a leg up, as ones misery is from the father not the mother, but then Adam did not inherit sin, he brought it on himself.

[JeffG]

You can only push people so far... Another crusade has an appeal.