Original sin?

[darkgael]

This post was intended to be #21 in the crusade thread. Rather than continue to post off topic, I am posting it here where it can be discussed or die a quick death.
So …..It is hard to stay away from this secondary idea (about sin). Both Ironglow and Bob R. wrote that mankind has its tendency to sin wrapped into our genes.
I just do not see it. (No surprise there.)
 Knowing what we know about the passing of traits, that something became genetic after the fact just does not work for me.
Please…I am not attacking scripture. I am trying to make sense of something that does not make sense to me.

[Lloyd Smale]

basically in my opinion original sin is breaking Gods ten commandments he gave to mosses telling him these are the sins i will not stand for. before that man just speculated on what was a sin against God. Thus the ORIGINAL sins. he knows we are sinners but want to make it clear that he expected us to avoid these.

[DDZ]

If one believes the word of God, they know that mans heart is inherently evil. This goes back to the beginning with Adam and Eve. In an unbelivers mind sin is not recognized, because Saten makes sin attractive. If the sin is attractive then in the sinners eyes, it is not sin.
Many unbelivers see themselves as "good" thinking I'm a kind person, and never commited murder, adultry, or stole anything. Yet the many other sins are not viewed as sins, Like divorce, anger, arrogance, bitterness, boasting, complaining, denying Christ, getting drunk, evil thoughts, greed hate, lying, pride, jelousy, Idolatry, fear, unforgiveness, etc....  Without seeing these as a sin, there is no need for a saviour.  In an unbelievers eyes man does not have an inherently evil heart, and believe they can be a good person with the idea of going to heaven. Unrealizing that without Christ, hell will be stacked to the ceiling with "good people". 
Every human on earth is a sinner. Hence mans heart is inherently evil. 

[Bob Riebe]

This post was intended to be #21 in the crusade thread. Rather than continue to post off topic, I am posting it here where it can be discussed or die a quick death.
So …..It is hard to stay away from this secondary idea (about sin). Both Ironglow and Bob R. wrote that mankind has its tendency to sin wrapped into our genes.
I just do not see it. (No surprise there.)
 Knowing what we know about the passing of traits, that something became genetic after the fact just does not work for me.
Please…I am not attacking scripture. I am trying to make sense of something that does not make sense to me.

If man was not inherently evil, there would be no evil in the world.

God also gave man free choice, to accept God/'s word or reject it; by creating ones own religion or changing the dogma God gave man, that one/those is'are lost forever, regardless of how good, by man's standards, society thinks they are.

God gave the angels free choice and a huge chunk of their group rejected God whilst in heaven, so that man is some how better than the angels that could not keep their heads out of their buttocks is silly.  -- (many preachers/synods ignore the parts of he Bible that does not suit their god wannabe religion so they are using the term Christian but are no better than Satan)

DG, you believe in the goodness of man , which history shows never existed.
IF, there were no God, then there is no good or evil; If one simply ceases to exist at death, then there is zero reason to not live one's life by what ever standard one creates in one's own mind.
There would be no penalty for being the most sick minded brutal pervert one chose to be.
If there are not  rules from an heavenly God, then Make Ones Own Rules and do so without fear.

It would be better to live  short life doing what ever one wants that drag along in a boring good-guy life because some people in society want  you to. To Hell with that do what you want as there would be no penalty.

Jesus said, being one of faith is not easy -- he calls the way “the narrow way.” “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Matthew 7:13-14.

[ironglow]

This post was intended to be #21 in the crusade thread. Rather than continue to post off topic, I am posting it here where it can be discussed or die a quick death.
So …..It is hard to stay away from this secondary idea (about sin). Both Ironglow and Bob R. wrote that mankind has its tendency to sin wrapped into our genes.
I just do not see it. (No surprise there.)
 Knowing what we know about the passing of traits, that something became genetic after the fact just does not work for me.
Please…I am not attacking scripture. I am trying to make sense of something that does not make sense to me.

  I think if you check back, I did not use the term "in our genes"..and I suspect trhah Bob only used it as a 'figure of speech'.; but I will let him
    explain that. 

  The doctrine of original sin, is held in various ways by various bodies.  Some are burdened by it, some disavow it, and others do not allow it to trouble them..
    However, Adam & Eve committed the original sin,,that of eating the forbidden fruit.

 They were not intended to reproduce, but by taking that fruit, the deal was broken.  In Genesis 3, we find that mankind would then reproduce, and the woman will accomplish it through much pain..man still has to work to produce his nourishment, and thorns and thistles still abound....all part of the price we pay.

  Here is a short, 4 min video by William Lane Craig, professor at Biola U.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eBS26l_pAg


    Frankly, I do not sweat the idea of original sin in the least, and it troubles me not.  I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and since
     I have done that, I am forgiven of ALL sin...

               
"but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "  (1 John 1:7-9)

[Bob Riebe]

Inherited , as a biological, bad genes,  through the father  is passed on, in the form of alcoholism, and other such biological miseries but the sinful nature is passed on but is not biological in nature..

Romans: 12-18
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Eve is not mentioned or blamed)

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
(Now here it does say until God gave Moses the law, things were a bit different, but death through sin still existed.)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
---------------------------------------------
At that:
One who accepts the Word of God, can defeat his sinful nature; reject the word and the children will inherit the same fate of their father if he never accepted the Lord's Word.

I the Lord...visit the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.” (Exodus 20:5; cf. Numbers 14:18)

At this point in time the Commandments will not save any one , but, accepting Jesus Word of who he is and what he did is all that matters for salvation.
Ephesians 2: this is all that is needed to be saved, despite being born of a sinful nature.

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

9 not of works, that no one may boast;

[darkgael]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
IG: No, you did not write “in our genes”. You wrote “ we are a fallen creation,  carrying that original sin, so to say.. in our DNA.”

[ironglow]

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.
IG: No, you did not write “in our genes”. You wrote “ we are a fallen creation,  carrying that original sin, so to say.. in our DNA.”

  Yes.."so to say"... and I was speaking of the broader, Christian DNA..not physical but still just a figure of speech, trying to explain the depth of thr
  ingrained sin.

  Much as one may inherit a crooked nose from his ancestors, we all inherit that sin from our original, shared ancestors..Adam and Eve.
   So, did you view the video?   

  This should help the explanation..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_xo7mGpAPc

  Any vestiges of original sin, are easily overcome upon the acceptance of salvation.

   "life is short, death is sure, sin the cause, Christ the cure."

[darkgael]

“the Christian DNA”. Of course.

[ironglow]

“the Christian DNA”. Of course.

  I have posted how all this concern can be resolved and eradicated, so I will just, "brush the dust off my feet" !

[darkgael]

Bob: I was reviewing this thread just now. While I appreciate the responses and the civility of the responses, I find myself in head shaking in disagreement with statements such as these:

IF, there were no God, then there is no good or evil; If one simply ceases to exist at death, then there is zero reason to not live one's life by what ever standard one creates in one's own mind.
There would be no penalty for being the most sick minded brutal pervert one chose to be.
If there are not  rules from an heavenly God, then Make Ones Own Rules and do so without fear.

I gtg. You are telling me the that men know murder is wrong only because a deity tells them so…….and other actions are wrong because of rules laid down by God?  I suppose, given the premise that men are inherently evil,  that that idea makes sense. It does not make sense to me. People know right from wrong; they are not necessarily drawn to wrongness. We quickly learn that treating our neighbors properly is a good way to care for ourselves.

[GTS225]

Allow an agnostic to opine his 2-pence, if you would;

So …..It is hard to stay away from this secondary idea (about sin). Both Ironglow and Bob R. wrote that mankind has its tendency to sin wrapped into our genes.
I just do not see it. (No surprise there.)
 Knowing what we know about the passing of traits, that something became genetic after the fact just does not work for me.
Please…I am not attacking scripture. I am trying to make sense of something that does not make sense to me.

While I am an agnostic, I cannot ignore a construct that 99% of humanity believes in. (Hence an omnipotent, all-powerful creator.)  To suggest that sin is a genetic trait seems ridiculous, but the scripture does seemingly lay it out that way.  (I'll not argue scripture here.)  I view it that we humans, when born, are a blank sheet of paper.....we know nothing, we have no sense of right or wrong, no concept of sin.  EVERYTHING we become is a learned construct.  We learn to crawl, then walk, by watching our siblings and adults around us, perhaps even the family pet(s).  We learn pain and fear by experience. We learn sounds by hearing others and emulating them, until we finally figure out how to control our lips, tongue, teeth, and vocal cords to form words, then sentences.  Names of objects and colors, along with names and titles of other humans around us are learned.  Thus, so is the sense of right and wrong, the construct of sin, the attitude one has when associating with others.   ALL of it is a learned human trait......it's not ingrained into your DNA.  Your DNA determines what you look like, whether you're born with Down's, or deaf, or sightless, or maybe with 6 toes, diseases you may develop later in life, how soon you lose your hair...whether you struggle with weight all your life.....all physical traits of the body.
The concept(s) we're discussing here are mental constructs, all relating to our learning environment(s), and how we react to that learning. Always changing, as we learn more things and develop different constructs.  (How you treated folks at 16, compared to 26, 36, 56, and 86 years of age is a decent example.)

Darkgael touched on it here, (other than people learn right from wrong) ;

People know right from wrong; they are not necessarily drawn to wrongness. We quickly learn that treating our neighbors properly is a good way to care for ourselves.

To lay it off on your God and scripture, for the way you might treat others, and the sins you carry out, is shirking your responsibility as a so-called civilized human, and one should be ashamed for doing it.

Bold?.....Brash?.....maybe even blasphemous to some, but there it is.....the thoughts of an agnostic.

Roger

[ironglow]

     OK...I made a faux pas equating to genetics.  I meant in a broader sense that it is inour spiritual genetics..for those who believe in God's spiritual
     realm.

        I can only suggest one study the 66 books of the Bible with as much elan as they may put into the study of other books. 
 
    BTW; Yes, I once owned the complete set of the Harvard classics, but although I studied most of them..I did pass on some...so within that collection,
    there is much I am not qualified to speak upon.

     Thus, speaking of the obvious (to me) major influence of God upon morality, i could go on typing pages related to God's plan and design.

  Fortunately, Cliffe Knechtle has a practice of speaking in open forum about Biblical and spiritual things..to college students across the country.

  Cliffe can explain it clearly, so I will simply present here, his answer to the same question.  give it a few minutes..then we can discuss
     more..possibly

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNI0qpNWUwg

  Or try Frank Turek, who does a similar program.. here's a short, less than 3 min video.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55P-s6OwtaQ

[Bob Riebe]

I gtg. You are telling me the that men know murder is wrong only because a deity tells them so…ghbors properly is a good way to care for ourselves.

Why would it be wrong other wise?
If there is no authority saying it is wrong, from the get-go, then it is only wrong to those who for unknown reason think so.

There would be no reason any one could not make their own rules, no matter how they differe, and none would be correct or incorrect because there is no base to to use as why ANY thing is correct or incorrect.

Feel good, has zero to do with what is correct or incorrect as there is no moral base from he get-go.
From nothing , comes nothing. including good and evil.

[darkgael]

Why would it be wrong other wise?
If there is no authority saying it is wrong, from the get-go, then it is only wrong to those who for  , comes nothing. including good and evil.

But that is not how it works is it? Mankind down through the ages has always downright from wrong

[ironglow]

 Did you even view the less than 3 minute  video of Dr Frank Turek, as he explains to a college student?  Just as I said, it saves a great deal of typing and explanation on our part.

   Please; give it a shot..    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55P-s6OwtaQ


....And perhaps give Jordan Peterson just a minute of time..      https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XmOQuQBoVmE

[darkgael]

IG: I watched both videos..You like those videos because your faith buoys you and allows you to accept as evidence details which are not evidence.

[GTS225]

Bob, DK, and IG;  I see both sides here, and that leads me to a question for all three of you.

You're discussing morality of sin, and it led to a "standard of conduct", if I may.  Remember, my thoughts are that we are born as a blank slate, and that we are taught everything that we know, and all that we become.

So.....where do the current standards that we employ as a society come from?  Where do we get the idea that murder is wrong, theft is wrong, prostitution is wrong, and should be punished, because the society we live in finds those behaviors unacceptable in a civilized group setting?

(I'll leave the question hanging, just to see what responses are posted)

Roger

[Bob Riebe]

You are coming from humans are, and were, blank slates, therefore; mores did not exist, which means, there is no absolute standard for good or evil.

IF, if that is true, then nothing is absolutely wrong.  If the control of a society says you do not do a, q, p or y because --why -- they do not like it?
 Then if,  the control of a society changes and they say a, p, q and especially y are just fine, and what the previous kahuna are wrong, they are correct , as long as their doctrin rules, BUT, nothing is absolutely, for eternity, good or evil because nothing ever absolutely was, is, or will be.
 Mores will change with those who control society.

Any threat to said same society can be eradicated, which would be good in that societies leaders doctorine.    IF -- another kahuna/s take control and write a new doctrine of mores, they are what determine good and evil but only as long as they are in control. Supposed good and evil are ONLY what some one/s say they are, they are not an absolute , which God's are.

This is fine as from nothing comes nothing. If there were no eternal mores to set what is good or evil, as dictated by an Eternel deity, then ther is nothing  to determine what is good or evil because there was nothing to determine it from.

God is eternal, the mores in God's society are eternal; always have been, are, and alway will be.
God and those that inhabit God's universe know the rules and do not defy them; those that did/do will spend eternity else where in some sort of eternal despair.

God created the universe of man, why, no idea.
God created Adam with a blank state of knowledge of good and evil with one ultimate command do not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
All Eve had to do was tell Satan, NO I CANNOT  do that, but she did, and then Adam all he had to do was REFUSE what she offered, but NO, he ignored God and listened to her, then he blamed her, and God for giving her to him for HIS orginal sin.

The closet on can get to say one inherits possibility sin from ones Father is that personality traits DO come from the Father not the mother, so while Adam's children were not born sinners that go to hades if they die young, they inherit the traits that could lead them commiting their first sins.
Just as Revelations infers one-third of Angels fell from heaven with Satan, I believe, some people are just plain evil when they are born, no thing on Earth causes that.

For one more thing, -- I believe, -- all people have existed for all time, even though defining time is a futile endeavour but in this case for the time the Earth has existed as we know it, every one was around before God made the current version of the Universe, and will still be around , some where, when he redoes it.
When one is born , one becomes part of the physical universe that now exists.

Too many theologian/preachers or simply men who try to explain faith/religion have narrow minds that think mankind and the Earth as we know it are the only places dealing with God's considerations.
Defeating Satan IS GOD'S main consideration, and has been as long as Mankind as we now know it has existed.
There was, maybe still is, a cold war in God's universe; human society is part of that war, but God deals with Satan directly every day in his time scale.

[darkgael]

Bob: Thank you for that. It is always educational to read your well thought responses. Much appreciated.

God is eternal, the mores in God's society are eternal; always have been, are, and alway will be.
God and those that inhabit God's universe know the rules and do not defy them; those that did/do will spend eternity else where in some sort of eternal despair.

Are you referring to the Christian god? Judeo-Christian? How are those mores, those rules, made known?

[ironglow]

  If as some believe, we are nothing but evolved primordal slime, from whence does morality arise ?  If there is no mind behind creation, why is there a common knowledge of right and wrong.

    This innate knowledge is often referred to as "natural law", simply because this sense of honesty and justice,  comes to man as naturally inspired by God.  The fact that some disregard this inner light, only demonstrates  the age old batgle between good and evil.

  Our founding fathers understood this fact and endorsed it in our founding documents. Which is why our own Declaration of Independence, begins with  the clear declaration;   "the laws of nature and of nature's God."

  If the alternative were true and mores are merely subjective...we would hav eno grounds whereby to say the Oct 7 massacre in Israel or the
   murder  of millions of pre-born boys and girls..is wrong..

  (after all, it is just a matter of "opinion"... it seems the Nazis approved of the holocaust, and Dr Kermit Gosnell thought he was doing the world a
   service by killing babies )

  Same goes for the holocaust as well as any mass murder.

  Jordan Peterson, speaking from an agnostic perspective, states the situation succinctly..

 

 

[Bob Riebe]

Bob: Thank you for that. It is always educational to read your well thought responses. Much appreciated.

God is eternal, the mores in God's society are eternal; always have been, are, and alway will be.
God and those that inhabit God's universe know the rules and do not defy them; those that did/do will spend eternity else where in some sort of eternal despair.

Are you referring to the Christian god? Judeo-Christian? How are those mores, those rules, made known?

There is only one God.

As the Kingdom of Melchisedek existed before Abraham , the Israelis were not the only persons knowing and believing in the One True God, but is was Abraham that was the Father of God's chosen people.
Believing Genesis, God's Mores existed before the Earth was made as is.
At that, for the Israelis, it was the Ten Commandments that were the first written absolutes as far as morals go, that we know of.

God told Adam & Eve do not do this, so that was an absolute from the get-go, when they ate, they knew they had sinned.
At what point do children become fully responsible for their sins, --  i.e. you  know better -- God only knows.

[darkgael]

“ There is only one God.”
That belief is fundamental to your faith.
It does, however, ignore the many gods which are not christian or abrahaimic. Who is to say that your choice is correct?

[Bob Riebe]

“ There is only one God.”
That belief is fundamental to your faith.
It does, however, ignore the many gods which are not christian or abrahaimic. Who is to say that your choice is correct?

Faith, alone.

The Lord of the Christian Faith is the only faith where man can has to do nothing to save him/her self, except believe the Word that Jesus is the Son of God and did as it is written he did for the sake of all humanity.
No hoops to jump through.

[darkgael]

Bob: We agree about that.

[ironglow]

  Contrary to today's popular notions, God can pass blame down through generations.  It does seem unfair to us that one should be blamed for his/her great grandfather's sins (e.g. slavery reparations).

   However, we must understand that God Himself, is the arbiter of what justice consists.  ...And He has said so Himself..

     Exodus 34:7
“[God] keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet he will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

   ..But there is an escape clause.. for those who love Him;

    Exodus 20:5-6
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments.

  Note:  The terms above which refer to "third and fourth"..in the Hebrew means, simply "however many"..

  Yet, there is little concern for those who believe..

       " but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanseth us
     from all sin."  (1John 1:7)

   A current phrase today goes.. "Life is short, death is sure; sin the cause, Christ the cure..." I see that as apropos..

       
"20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."  (Rev 3:20)