bet dodge and ram feel like budwiser.

[Lloyd Smale]

stupid decisions by upper management to shove evs down our throats and sales are tanking. nobody wants theit electric muscle cars or even 6 cyl turbo trucks and muscle cars. AMERICANS WANT V8"s. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/the-unofficial-spokesman-for-the-american-muscle-car-tim-kuniskis-is-retiring/ar-BB1mzt3l?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=5f8346fc6d55472a853cd0586fc892a5&ei=82.  unbelievably i found this on msn where all the ev idiots hang out

[ironglow]

  Perhaps it is best decided by "what is best for my uses"..  Each person's needs differ, according to their lifestyle and/or usage.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A35psWm7GNA

  The trend does seem to be toward less cylinders and less cubic inches displacement.  Of course, in order to generate equal power, a turbo charger is
    mandatory..which questions reliability for a long engine life under heavy use.

  Surprisingly, there are a substantial number of 3 cylinder engines now in regular use..and the owners oif such vehicles that I know of, seem content
     with their choice.

  A list of current 3 cylinder vehicles currently or previously sold in the US.

     2021-Present Chevrolet Trailblazer. This is another example of an I-3 being used for fuel economy and a lower price. ...
2021-Present Ford Bronco Sport. ...
2020-Present Ford Escape. ...
2011-2017 Ford Fiesta. ...
2015-2018 Ford Focus. ...
1989-2001 Geo/Chevrolet Metro. ...
2023 Jeep Renegade. ...
2023 Koenigsegg Gemera.

  In fact, I have recently been considering a new Mitsubishi Mirage, which is a sub compact , 3 cylinder vehicle.  Yes, it is small and only 78 hp
  but for many years I drove VW Beetles, which ranged from 25 to 46 horsepower.  I also had a couple Suzuki Samurai vehicles...and was OK with them.

      That of course, doesn't mean they would be OK for everyone...we all differ in our likes and dislikes, and others may be bored with them.

   BTW; I think you arte spot on, that few indeed, truly want EVs..

[Lloyd Smale]

guess you have to wonder why ford makes a turbo 6 that puts out more power than their 5.4 but wont put it in a 3/4 ton. why ram has no plan as of yet to put their turbo 6 in anything but 1/2 tons. both those 6's put out 400 hp. plenty to pull anything. my guess is they know they would never hold up to hard use. even toyota knows Americans want v8's in full sized trucks. ford got away with it because their fan base are loyal and would buy a turd with a blue oval on it before buying a different brand. have to wonder how many ford buyers would still chose a v8 over a turbo 6. bottom line is it isnt choice. that freedom is being taken away by a socialist government mandating the death of v8s. same people driving v8  benz's and bmws to work or have limos hauling them to their private jets. its not one bit different than them singling out ar's and glocks with thier bs gun control. they just want to control every aspect of your life. guess we can buy one of those teslas hertz is dumping for 25k because they cant afford to keep them running.

[Bob Riebe]

They want to sell over-seas and Europe has taxes on large engine vehicles, so they make engine smaller and smaller.

Under current law, owners of a vehicle pay €2.00 per 100 cm3 engine displacement in the case of a gasoline engine and €9.50 if the car has a diesel engine. If a car emits more than 95 g CO2/km, €2.00 per gram of CO2 is added. Figure 1. German vehicle ownership tax: Changes to the CO2 component from 2021.


https://theicct.org/germanys-vehicle-tax-system-small-steps-towards-future-proof-incentives-for-low-emission-vehicles/

[Lloyd Smale]

i can see that especially with cars but trucks are mostly sold here. even the sales of those mini cars that are glorified go carts have for the most tanked here. i really dont think its foreign governments that have brought us this junk. its our own socialist led government thats behind this push. brought to you by politicians that fly in private jets and are driven around in limos. whole thing is just hypocrisy. i dont care if you want a car powered by a single cyl 2 stroke snowmobile engine. if enough want them to justify tooling up to build them. but right now its forced and not enough people want them to make it profitable so each and every one of us has to subsidies it and it drives up the price of new cars and trucks and that raises the price of even new ones. want a 3cyl car that gets 35mpg then pay for it. its not one bit different than subsidizing evs. doubt to many cheerleaders would buck up 60k for a 3 cyl car. they want us to pay the real cost

They want to sell over-seas and Europe has taxes on large engine vehicles, so they make engine smaller and smaller.

Under current law, owners of a vehicle pay €2.00 per 100 cm3 engine displacement in the case of a gasoline engine and €9.50 if the car has a diesel engine. If a car emits more than 95 g CO2/km, €2.00 per gram of CO2 is added. Figure 1. German vehicle ownership tax: Changes to the CO2 component from 2021.


https://theicct.org/germanys-vehicle-tax-system-small-steps-towards-future-proof-incentives-for-low-emission-vehicles/

[ironglow]

i can see that especially with cars but trucks are mostly sold here. even the sales of those mini cars that are glorified go carts have for the most tanked here. i really dont think its foreign governments that have brought us this junk. its our own socialist led government thats behind this push. brought to you by politicians that fly in private jets and are driven around in limos. whole thing is just hypocrisy. i dont care if you want a car powered by a single cyl 2 stroke snowmobile engine. if enough want them to justify tooling up to build them. but right now its forced and not enough people want them to make it profitable so each and every one of us has to subsidies it and it drives up the price of new cars and trucks and that raises the price of even new ones. want a 3cyl car that gets 35mpg then pay for it. its not one bit different than subsidizing evs. doubt to many cheerleaders would buck up 60k for a 3 cyl car. they want us to pay the real cost

They want to sell over-seas and Europe has taxes on large engine vehicles, so they make engine smaller and smaller.

Under current law, owners of a vehicle pay €2.00 per 100 cm3 engine displacement in the case of a gasoline engine and €9.50 if the car has a diesel engine. If a car emits more than 95 g CO2/km, €2.00 per gram of CO2 is added. Figure 1. German vehicle ownership tax: Changes to the CO2 component from 2021.


https://theicct.org/germanys-vehicle-tax-system-small-steps-towards-future-proof-incentives-for-low-emission-vehicles/

  It seems like much confusion here.. First off, I am for anyone purchasing what they wish, without a commie government looking over their shoulder.

  It is especially disturbing to most, because as a customary process in a free market republic, where a man can spend his hard earned wages as
   he chooses.   ...But now we are being badgered by a brainwashed segment,who view Marxism....and perhaps even Trotsky-Stalinism as the answer.  We in the USA are of course, not accustomed to this this regimine.

     Further on, it looks like the 3 cyl automobile is quickly leaving the V8s behind in sales numbers.  Stands to reason, since similar power can be produced..along with better efficency. 
   https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/15/business/american-cars-three-cylinder-engines/index.html

  Now, some folks like their V8s, because they think POWER is necessarily produced with vast cubic inches. To them, apparently excessive power
  is very desireable.

  Some folks are motivated by  power...others by EFFICENCY..  I don't confuse my transportation needs with any personal ego. Thus, I happen to fall
    into the efficency category.

 I only weigh about 190 lbs...I don't need a 5.4 V8 and 4,000 lbs to take me to church or the local coffee shop, when the same task can be accomplished extremely efficently with a 1.2, 3 cyl..1 ton car.....plus many parking spaces will be available to me, which are not available to
  clinically obese cars.   

  Then too, I would be remiss not to mention for those who are ego-inclined, of the number of times the big V8s have been embarrassed by a
    "tuner" 4 cyl at the traffic light, not to mention when out on those country road "twisties"..

   ...But still, to each his own...  I am not interested in how fast I can leave the stop light..but being inclined toward efficency, I may ask to campare
   gas mileage.  The Mitsubishi mirage for instance, starts at 36 mpg city...43 mpg country...many drivers reaching into the 50s and very low 60s over the roiad, while driving for high mileage.

   These small 3 cyl engines can be very durable..  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1-_yq7dpgc

  Again..choose your angle..power or efficency..

[ironglow]

  Admittedly, you have a point, in that most American drivers opt for luxury & performance, rather than simplicity and efficency, since it looks like
  trhe efficient, sub-compact cars are not selling in numbers but what manufacturers are dropping them...so far as trhe US is concerned.

  I may seem different, but I can roll my own windows up and down, turn on my windshield wipers when needed...and I don't need a monumentally complex computer drive system aboard.

  I don't need 6-8 speakers with the radio...nor many of the accessories offered in most cars...since there is one basoic fact that haunts such systems
 with so much complexity.

  Grandpa used to say a machine would not last long, because it  has "too many moving  parts"..

  ...But actually, grandpa was onto something there..  With the surge of "conveniences" and the growth of mandatory govt additions, (e.g. tire pressure monitors)  in many of today's cars..reliability has gone down.

    Now with the very costly computer systems and luxury items...potential failures have increased remarkably.

  ...But to the OP...Yes Dodge and Ram, as well as any other electric truck producers, must be carrying a healthy helping of chagrin..

  BTW...  One other factor... Purchasing a new sub-compact 3 cylinder, need not cost anywhere near $60 K..  See below..

    https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/mirage

[Casull]

  Admittedly, you have a point, in that most American drivers opt for luxury & performance, rather than simplicity and efficency, since it looks like
  trhe efficient, sub-compact cars are not selling in numbers but what manufacturers are dropping them...so far as trhe US is concerned.

  I may seem different, but I can roll my own windows up and down, turn on my windshield wipers when needed...and I don't need a monumentally complex computer drive system aboard.

  I don't need 6-8 speakers with the radio...nor many of the accessories offered in most cars...since there is one basoic fact that haunts such systems
 with so much complexity.

  Grandpa used to say a machine would not last long, because it  has "too many moving  parts"..

  ...But actually, grandpa was onto something there..  With the surge of "conveniences" and the growth of mandatory govt additions, (e.g. tire pressure monitors)  in many of today's cars..reliability has gone down.

    Now with the very costly computer systems and luxury items...potential failures have increased remarkably.

  ...But to the OP...Yes Dodge and Ram, as well as any other electric truck producers, must be carrying a healthy helping of chagrin..

  BTW...  One other factor... Purchasing a new sub-compact 3 cylinder, need not cost anywhere near $60 K..  See below..

    https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/mirage

Reliability has NOT gone down.  Todays cars and trucks are soo much more reliable than those of the 70's, 80's and even 90's.  I remember when I started driving (1977), it was pretty rare to "roll over" an odometer (when they only went to 99,999).  Today, it's nothing to go 250,000 or more miles on a vehicle.

[Graybeard]

I'm well on my way to that 250,000. I have a few miles over 22,000 now on my 2017 Toyota Tundra. I figure if I live another 75 years I'll get there. Now Matt I think is already over 200,000 on my 2011 Tundra I gave him. It had around 12,000 when I gave it to him.

I doubt I'll live long enough to roll 50,000 on the 2017.

[ironglow]

I'm well on my way to that 250,000. I have a few miles over 22,000 now on my 2017 Toyota Tundra. I figure if I live another 75 years I'll get there. Now Matt I think is already over 200,000 on my 2011 Tundra I gave him. It had around 12,000 when I gave it to him.

I doubt I'll live long enough to roll 50,000 on the 2017.

  No surprise there, Bill.. I have noticed over the years, that the Toyota brand is like the Energizer bunny...they just keep going...and going..

   ..And experts seem to agree..  https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/17aw5y3/why_are_toyotas_perceived_as_more_reliable_cars/

[Dixie-Dude]

Ford used to make a 300 cu. in. straight 6.  In a truck it had a lot of torque and was good for pulling.  The old straight 6"s were used to turn large assembly line conveyor belts, and used in emergency generators.  They quit making them several years ago.  I had an old truck with one, and it was easy to work on.  All the spark plugs lined up on one side, exposed, with nothing in the way of being able to change them. 

[wtxbadger]

My 2007 Toyota Sequoia has over 183,000 miles, runs good and haven't had any major issues with it. On the other hand my 1966 Ford F100 has been very reliable over the past 35 years that I have owned it as well. Regular oil changes and other maintenance as needed have kept them both on the road and doing what I need done.

[ironglow]

Ford used to make a 300 cu. in. straight 6.  In a truck it had a lot of torque and was good for pulling.  The old straight 6"s were used to turn large assembly line conveyor belts, and used in emergency generators.  They quit making them several years ago.  I had an old truck with one, and it was easy to work on.  All the spark plugs lined up on one side, exposed, with nothing in the way of being able to change them.

  That was an outstanding engine in gas.. 7 main bearings helped greatly toward it's durability.

  Ford however, made a major mistake with it when they decided to switch it to diesel for their model 6000 farm tractors. ..A different situation,
   which almost drove Ford out of the Farm equipment business in the 1970s.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and its not just toyota. any of the big 3 v8 trucks will easily hit 200k. back in the 60s and 70s most wouldnt buy a used truck that had over 70k on it. today 70k is just broke in. heck ive got a 2006 gmc that just turned a 100k and id hop in it tommarow and drive coast to coast as confidently as i would in my new silverado. dad bought a new 63 impala and got it with a 283 because back then it was about the only motor that would make a 100k without a rebuild.

big difference today is people are afraid to work on them saying there to complicated. fact is today they rarely break down and in fact are no harder to work on. in many cases easier. you can buy a decent code reader for a 100 bucks, plug it in and the car will tell you whats wrong with it. usually just a matter of unplugging a sensor and replacing it. no voodoo magic in those motors. anyone can do it. no more do you need to throw parts at it hoping you guessed right. stuff like plugs last a 100k not 3k. oil changes at twice the mileage. even brakes and tires last twice as long. all for about the same money factoring inflation that dad paid for that 63 when he made 2 bucks an hour then at a good civil service job.

  Admittedly, you have a point, in that most American drivers opt for luxury & performance, rather than simplicity and efficency, since it looks like
  trhe efficient, sub-compact cars are not selling in numbers but what manufacturers are dropping them...so far as trhe US is concerned.

  I may seem different, but I can roll my own windows up and down, turn on my windshield wipers when needed...and I don't need a monumentally complex computer drive system aboard.

  I don't need 6-8 speakers with the radio...nor many of the accessories offered in most cars...since there is one basoic fact that haunts such systems
 with so much complexity.

  Grandpa used to say a machine would not last long, because it  has "too many moving  parts"..

  ...But actually, grandpa was onto something there..  With the surge of "conveniences" and the growth of mandatory govt additions, (e.g. tire pressure monitors)  in many of today's cars..reliability has gone down.

    Now with the very costly computer systems and luxury items...potential failures have increased remarkably.

  ...But to the OP...Yes Dodge and Ram, as well as any other electric truck producers, must be carrying a healthy helping of chagrin..

  BTW...  One other factor... Purchasing a new sub-compact 3 cylinder, need not cost anywhere near $60 K..  See below..

    https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/mirage

Reliability has NOT gone down.  Todays cars and trucks are soo much more reliable than those of the 70's, 80's and even 90's.  I remember when I started driving (1977), it was pretty rare to "roll over" an odometer (when they only went to 99,999).  Today, it's nothing to go 250,000 or more miles on a vehicle.

[ironglow]

No doubt, engines are more long lasting than ever,which I would assign to the more precision work being done with current manufacturing capability.

  What used to be called "blueprinting" an engine years ago..weighing each component..push rods, valves etc all brought in very close weight of each other etc, .along with other precision measures.. is now production routine.

  Little doubt in my  mind Lloyd,. you are a far better mechanic than I, but I lay much of todays problems onto the complexity of current cars.
   My mechanical days were when cars had carburetors and generators..      

   THe simplicity I am looking for, is such as when I drove VW beetles  for 15-20 years, and did my own work on them.  Yes, back then for all cars, it
    was routine plugs, points and condensers every 12K miles..like clockwork.. .But then, those parts cost me about a $10 bill. And I could replace the entire exhaust system (JC Whitney) for $19.

  Today, I don't consider German cars... It seems their engineers are so impressed with their own ability, that they want to demonstrate their
  skill by making their cars very "sophisticated"..to the point where it directly affects their reliability.

  Basically, I think that the hard-ware in today's cars  (engines, transmissions, running gear, brakes), is much superior to yesterday's cars, but
   It seems if any 'system' fails..it is very costly.  Yesterday, if you speedometer quit, it was usually the cable..a few buck and it is good again.
    Those built in computers are very costly to replace, as well as any of the electronic systems they are built to control.

  ..And it appears to my amateurish eyes, that the more "presteigous' the brand..the more costly to repair.  I don't see a Bently, Porsche or Lambo,
  running day after day , like a Toyota or Honda...but those who can afford those very costly cars..can afford to repair them, so you hear little
    complaint from  owners.

  Perhaps thatn
 is because if a manufacturer makes say half a million cars of any model...durability is assured purely by experience with that model.
   .. But if they make just 40 to 200 of any given model..they haven't yet "gotten the bugs out"..
 
  Just unloading...don't take me too seriously..

[Lloyd Smale]

https://carcomputerexchange.com/dodge/challenger/2011-dodge-challenger-3-6l-pcm/prod_15000.html

300 bucks for a computer for my 392 challenger. thats about 30 bucks in 1970 money

[Lloyd Smale]

my prayer

[Lloyd Smale]

this or

[Lloyd Smale]

or this?  guess which is sitting in my garage

[Ranger99]

No doubt, engines are more long lasting than ever,which I would assign to the more precision work being done with current manufacturing capability.

  What used to be called "blueprinting" an engine years ago..weighing each component..push rods, valves etc all brought in very close weight of each other etc, .along with other precision measures.. is now production routine.
   

Not so much "blueprinting" as more sophisticated
manufacturing techniques.
Especially casting procedures.
They can pretty much make a performance
cylinder head now that needs very little
final machine work before it's ready to use.
All the porting work and combustion
chamber work that would have taken me
a week or so of late nights after work to
do less final assembly is now unnecessary.
You can have a ready to bolt on cylinder
head delivered to your doorstep with your
choice of port and combustion chamber
configuration and whatever valves and
spring setup you specify, and the
hardest thing you have to do is get
it out of the box
A good bit of today's factory automotive
technology was "borrowed" from racing
technology of 60 years ago

[Drilling Man]

[GTS225]

I realize this was posted in jest, but.......
     EVERY time I see a smart car, or something similar, I can't help but think......"perfect start for an altered gasser."

Roger

[Lloyd Smale]

yup a modern v8 vega or willys gasser. dont know where youd put the motor though. seriously though. id never put my wife or daughter in one of those little coffins. heck if you hit a deer it would probably kill you. all to save 5mpg? not this guy. my wife drives to work every day in the winter right on the lake superior shoreline on probably the most often closed road in the midwest. she tried smaller cars. last one was a buick verono we bought new. had it one winter and it cured her. low to the ground so every car in front of you kicks up snow and blinds you. she also got tired of every other day cleaning the snow out of the wheel wells that because the close them up for areo plug so bad it effects steering and wheels designed for the same reason that plug with snow and will about shake you off the road. bought her a new truck in 15 and shed never go back to a car. they sit up higher, have 4x4 and most importantly have a full steel frame that wont fold up like that little go cart. we just bought a new truck and she made noise about wanting a smaller suv. i told her to buy what she wanted. she sat in a couple chev sort utilitys and said nope shed rather a truck. sure the hell didnt break my heart. you couldnt give me one of those clown cars.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup cnc machining and computers changed the game.

No doubt, engines are more long lasting than ever,which I would assign to the more precision work being done with current manufacturing capability.

  What used to be called "blueprinting" an engine years ago..weighing each component..push rods, valves etc all brought in very close weight of each other etc, .along with other precision measures.. is now production routine.
   

Not so much "blueprinting" as more sophisticated
manufacturing techniques.
Especially casting procedures.
They can pretty much make a performance
cylinder head now that needs very little
final machine work before it's ready to use.
All the porting work and combustion
chamber work that would have taken me
a week or so of late nights after work to
do less final assembly is now unnecessary.
You can have a ready to bolt on cylinder
head delivered to your doorstep with your
choice of port and combustion chamber
configuration and whatever valves and
spring setup you specify, and the
hardest thing you have to do is get
it out of the box
A good bit of today's factory automotive
technology was "borrowed" from racing
technology of 60 years ago

[GTS225]

Lloyd.....Lloyd......open up your imagination.  Full tube chassis, engine outside the body, out front, in the open, almost like an old-school slingshot.  Cage the body and go high-speed drag racing.

Roger

[ironglow]

No doubt, engines are more long lasting than ever,which I would assign to the more precision work being done with current manufacturing capability.

  What used to be called "blueprinting" an engine years ago..weighing each component..push rods, valves etc all brought in very close weight of each other etc, .along with other precision measures.. is now production routine.
   

Not so much "blueprinting" as more sophisticated
manufacturing techniques.
Especially casting procedures.
They can pretty much make a performance
cylinder head now that needs very little
final machine work before it's ready to use.
All the porting work and combustion
chamber work that would have taken me
a week or so of late nights after work to
do less final assembly is now unnecessary.
You can have a ready to bolt on cylinder
head delivered to your doorstep with your
choice of port and combustion chamber
configuration and whatever valves and
spring setup you specify, and the
hardest thing you have to do is get
it out of the box
A good bit of today's factory automotive
technology was "borrowed" from racing
technology of 60 years ago

  ..And I concur...

[ironglow]

I realize this was posted in jest, but.......
     EVERY time I see a smart car, or something similar, I can't help but think......"perfect start for an altered gasser."

Roger

   That smart car looks like a big old Buick sedan that pulled out directly in from of the IH gravel truck my Brother-in-law was driving..

   He cut it off neatly at the firewall.  The female driver did walk away.. 

  Even though she thought he should have stopped for her, since he went through a blinking yellow light, while she has d blinking red light...which of c    ourse, gave her the right of way...   

[Lloyd Smale]

whats real comical is they call them smart cars 99 percent of them are sold to under 25 year old women and gay guys who voted for biden and would again

[ironglow]

  I call them not -so-smart cars...

[Dixie-Dude]

My son has a turbo V-6 in a Ford F-150.  He blew the head gasket accelerating to get onto the interstate.  It cost him $2,600 to get the head gasket replaced.  He said they all are phasing out V-8's due to government regulations on gas mileage.  I told him to drive like an older person so it won't get blown again. 

It is one thing for the government to subsidize the electric car industry and another to make gasoline mileage go up so high that the gasoline vehicles are no good anymore for towing or even driving.  How do you tow something with a V-6 like a travel trailer or a boat? 

Electrics are not going to be ready by 2035 regardless of what the government wants.  Electric prices have to come down, charging time and range have to go up.  Also, the GRID has to be able to handle all the charging.  Fix the grid first, more nukes is the only real answer, other than more natural gas and coal power plants.