Author Topic: Magnums, and magnumitise (Read 2850 times)

John Y Cannuck · « **on:** January 06, 2003, 01:16:37 AM »

Ok do you really nead a magnum?
I've carried a 338WM for moose the last ten years. I found that in some areas, where ranges were long, there were lots of magnums (mostly 7mm, and 338).
Then, I had to move my hunting area, and I found guys hunting with the 35 rem, and the 30-30.
They can't be serrious? Can they?
Then I started talking to these guys, some wanted magnums, but couldn't see the need, when the old brush buster did the job. Some were downright hostile about it!
No nead for anything bigger than my '06 was common.
I soon sold my 338WM, will I miss it?

Tony D · « **Reply #1 on:** January 06, 2003, 09:02:18 AM »

A 30-06 will do anything you want in the lower 48. Some with Magnumitis will want one to stretch their range, but most don't put in the range time. I've been an avid bowhunter for over 15 years and like to get close, even when carrying my 308 Bellm. Hunting means getting as close as possible and placing the bullet in the animal's vitals. When you can shoot an animal out to 400 yards are more, is it really hunting or more like shooting?

Bob/FLA · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2003, 01:54:47 PM »

Amen Tony!!!
I also hunt with bow and pistol. And I might as well chime in saying that I shot more mulies while in Wyoming with my 30-30 than any other gun I've ever owned. A friend of mine also gets his elk every year with a 170gr flat nose from his 30-30...at about 25 yards!

Matt in AK · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2003, 07:15:09 PM »

I own a 35 Rem that's older than I am and mt dad used to hunt deer with when he was stationed in Maine. I also own a nice 338 Win Mag. I'm not altogether certain I "need" the 338 (but when you hunt in my part of Alaska...you're always "hunting" brown bear) but you have to admit that the extra 'push' at the shoting bench is fun :grin:

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2003, 11:47:18 PM »

Hey Matt, I hear ya, now take that 338, crawl down into the prone position, and let it pile drive ya for about two boxes of amo.
That was my introduction to the 338WM I didn't have a bench, and I was sighting in , and having "fun". First time I was ever briused by any gun.
Given the big brownies, I'd still have my 338, or I'd dig out the 45-70.

longwinters · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2003, 10:40:16 AM »

Gee, I hardly figure a 7mm is even a "magnum" anymore. About the same kick as a 30-06 or 270 according to Chuck Hawks recoil tables. And with all the small hand cannons out there in Weatherbys etc... a 7mm seems more like the 243 of the magnum rifles.

zoo · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2003, 03:41:12 AM »

I think my 45/70 in Marlins guide gun is much more punishing than my .338.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2003, 01:09:51 PM »

Heavy loaded, I'll agree, the 45-70 can really smack the shooter. Try it prone with no pad in a T shirt some time.
I've found that the old girl is quite diversified. You can load it to do a lot of different things, and that bone crunching power is not really needed for anything short of big bears anyway.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2003, 06:20:27 AM »

It's called marketing.

Can you imagine what it would do to the CEO's yacht budget if we all realized that the .30-30 or .30-06 that is in the gun cabinet is just fine?

Someone needs to convince you that whatever Super-Duper XYZ on the gunstore shelf is far superior than whatever sits in your gun rack. So the first thing they do is downplay the guns that are ubiquitous in American's cabinets.

Even for dangerous game, I have my suspicions. Perhaps if you INTEND to take a shot at Ol' Ephraim from 100 yards - then you want some assurance that you won't just tick him off.

But for simple "berry picking" in grizzly country, I question the choice of a magnum. In a berry picking situation, my guess is at 100 yards or more, you and the grizz will avoid any confrontation. The situation you need to defend yourself in is when you are suprised by a charging bruin.

In this situation, what might matter more than magnum power is the lightning quick ability to get off a shot.

Will someone do me a favor? Will someone figure out the time it takes for a charging grizzly to close a 30 yard gap?

Then see if you can unshoulder the .338 WM and hit a coffee can in that amount of time? Then try it with a .30-30 or .35?

Now, while you're at the range, try hitting the coffee can from off the hip. Time yourself to see if off the hip shooting is faster. Keep practicing with both the magnum and the old guns until you get proficient.

Then post the results here.

sideironjohn · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2003, 09:09:15 AM »

And then there's the point Boddington makes in whatever issue of gun-whatever last month, about the 416 Remington mag: "magnum of what?"
The 416 Rigby, Hoffman, Dakota, Rimmed (A-Square), these all do a 400gr @ 2400 or better already, and then Remington puts out a "Magnum" that does the same thing!?
It really is just marketing, and it's a word so over-used it means nothing anymore, except, "Hey! Look at me!!"
The question, of course, is simply do you need x amount of velocity in x bullet weight.
Answer - OF COURSE YOU DO! (If you do, that is.)
Something my father taught me early as I'd listen, you don't need to rationalize a gun purchase or cartridge selection, unless it makes you feel better.
You got ol' what's-z-name, Bell? shooting elephant with a 270, c'mon.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2003, 01:40:22 PM »

Black Jaque Janaviac
Tell you right now, if I practiced for a life time, I could never shoot any bolt gun as handily, as fast, or as accurately, in a close range quick shot scenario, as a '94 Winchester. Maybe that's just me, but I doub't it.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2003, 07:02:28 AM »

it is always about marketing. i took a buddy of mine to a gun shop recently. he just recieved his pal and didn't really know much about guns. when he asked the clerk about a good starting gun for deer he handed him model 700 in .300 WSM. those puppys have a hefty price tag, especially if you only work part time!! my buddy wasn't to sure and the guy was pushing hard to make the sale.when he asked my pinion i gave him the truth. that no4 lithgow .303 on the rack for $80 will kill'em just as dead as $2,000 custom gun. or if you don't want milsurp by a model 94.he finally took a .30-.30 trappers model for $110. the looks i got from the clerk as he wrung it up could have melted lead!! guess i cheated him out of his commission. the truth hurts. :grin:

Rick Teal · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2003, 12:52:17 PM »

Something similar happened to me a few years ago at the range.

There was this guy trying to sight in a 30-30 with a red dot sight, and was having an awful time. Because I was shooting red dots too, we got to talking. It seemed we both hunted the thick stuff - although his gang did more drives than mine. I suggested the usual stuff (loose bases etc.), but he was convinced everything was OK.

I noticed he was talking to one of the range regulars as well as me. A little later, he came back to me and asked my opinion of the 30-30. Since I'm no fan of the cartridge, I gave my opinion, and suggested a "middle" cartridge would be better, but that he not get away from quick actioned rifles. He went back to the other guy, and then they both left to go to the pro shop.

As I was packing up to leave, they came back, and now he had his new "darling. It was a bolt actioned abomination in 7mm magnum with a scope that was something like 16 or 20 power. I choked back my real feeling, told him it looked nice, and left.

They sure took him to the cleaners - that combo probably cost $1,500. I wonder how he was able to deal (that fall) with a running deer at 30 yds with that POS.

TopGun · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2003, 03:09:28 PM »

Mr. Cannuck, growing up in the hemlock forests of North central PA, I used to feel the same way as you do about bolt guns. EVERYONE uses either a Marlin, or Winchester lever, or a 760/7600 remington pump. Then I found the Ruger m77 RSI in 308 with a 18 1/2" bbl. It is the sweetest pointing/shooting rifle I have ever uesed. I can site over teh 1-4x Leupold or focus on a 7yd deer if need be. I've shot a few after jumping them out. It's obviously not a fast 2nd shot, but it swings great on a fast moving deer, and swings real easy in the hemlocks. I rank it as high as any of the above in first shot speed on target and accuracy. It does kick. I find the Remingtons on the heavy side for all-day deer drives, and the RSI gives me a lot more 'field' range than the levers (censored word) the BLRs). I still have the lever guns, my brother still has his 760 '06, and some things never change! Escept me. I still have the RSI but it relegated to 'safe-keeping', as I rarely carry a rifle anymore. Only occasionally my 444 or 45-70. One can't have too many choices. No big belted mags here. The most power I have is my 35 Whelen, but you already it's merits! Great job!

kevin.303 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2003, 05:47:07 AM »

i've always liked the 94. even though i am a big fan of the enfield, it doesn't offer a quick follow-up shot if your a lefty. since it cocks on closing the extra force you have to use to close the bolt can cause the stock to slip from the shoulder and get ya in the teeth if you don't have an iron grip on the rifle. the other nice thing about the 94 over a marlin lever gunis that it ejects straight up so those hot shells aren't whipping by face.

Moose-Hunter · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2003, 11:48:06 AM »

All I own is magnums and I find anything smaller is boring. Maybe one day when I get older and have the mentality I don't need magnums anymore, but I highly doubt that'll ever happen.

Lawdog · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2003, 12:01:13 PM »

John Y Cannuck,

For 80% of the hunting done in the states NO you don't need a magnum. You also don't need air conditioning in your car or a radio or even a heater. Sure a person can get by with a .30-06, .308 or whatever he likes but many of us like having the option of taking shots at somewhat longer ranges or having the additional power a magnum gives. Example is say you kill that trophy elk and while you are dressing it an cagey ole grizzly come along to challenge you for ownership. Now he's 50 yards away and getting closer fast, you still want that 06 or would you rather have that magnum? Me I love my magnums and I use them. Lawdog

bearhuntr · « **Reply #17 on:** March 29, 2003, 02:48:00 PM »

"Will someone do me a favor? Will someone figure out the time it takes for a charging grizzly to close a 30 yard gap?"

B.J.J.,
The answer to your question is: 3.0 seconds. No thanks necessary; glad I could help.(TIC)

best,
bhtr

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2003, 03:14:57 PM »

Yup I can see where you'd like one, the griz though, and the polar bear are the only real reason, unless you are realy into the long range stuff.
I'd guess that it's closer to 90% of all hunting does not require a magnum, and even stretch that to world wide, from the comfort of my chair.
How? Except for the long range stuff, there are non magnums that can do the job. You'd rather have a magnum to face the charging bear? the 505Gibbs, is not a magnum, niether is the lowly 10guage.

bearhuntr · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2003, 01:22:30 PM »

In bear country, 400 grains at anything over 2000 fps answers most questions decisively. No firearm will ever replace a good "thinking cap" for the best defense. Anyone who does not consider his surroundings and or his MO. whilst in the woods will have a run-in at sometime that places an awful amount of reliance on lady luck to save the day. I prefere a combo package of firearm and thinking cap myself.
best,
bhtr

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #20 on:** April 02, 2003, 02:57:43 PM »

I agree. Cool shot beats most situations any day.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #21 on:** April 03, 2003, 07:02:52 AM »

I have to admit, I don't understand the jist of this topic too well. It seems folks are wanting to criticize the folks using magnum cartridges. Why? What do we care as long as they are used effectively? I own both magnum and standard chambered rifles. I use both.

Here's the question. We buy, say a 270 Winchester, 30-06, or 25-06, in part because they are flat shooting and help take out guess work at varying unknown ranges. So, if that is the case, why not shoot something a little flatter? Why not shoot a 270 Wby Mag, 300 Win or Wby Mag, 257 Wby Mag instead? I mean after all, if flat is good, flatter should be better. Now days we have bullets that can take the extra velocity produced by these cartridges. Like Elmer Keith was fond of saying, I didn't think you could kill something too dead.

The question for someone wanting a magnum cartridge is not why, but why not. Rifles are the same price, if you handload, ammo isn't much more expensive and there isn't anything wrong with them. Why not use a magnum?

A lot of the arguments I seen on this issue are from folks that use rifles that are more powerful than needed for the species they hunt anyway. I see alot of the "new" hot loaded 45/70 fans using these rifles on 100 lb deer. Surely the hot loaded 45/70 isn't needed on something as small as deer. Neither is a 30-06, but nobody complains about someone using a 30-06 for whitetailed deer. What's the difference?

bearhuntr · « **Reply #22 on:** April 03, 2003, 08:35:41 AM »

Yukon,
Greetings my fellow Alaskan-ite! Hey, I would'nt get too excited about this kind of thread. They are usually nothing more than a fun exercise in spouting! Some posters will always come out on the side of generalization and suggest that their opinion should effect the masses. Firearms choices are not (and never will be) anything more than a personal decision based on personal experiences, desires, game type pursuits, etc. They (the choices) are not like wrenches where only a 1/2" box end will do! I believe these threads work wonders to fight the winter doldrums that effect many. Some, however, are affected more than others it seems...
best,
bhtr

Ka6otm · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2003, 12:08:20 PM »

It seems everyone here is overlooking the reason why those of us with wives who shoot with us need a Magnum (or reasonable facsimile thereof).

My wife also shoots and accompanies me to the range. When she does, she wants to get a bench next to mine...just in case of a problem, I guess. Frequently, all the other shooters are spread out so one unoccupied bench separates them and we can't get two together.

So......

I take an unoccupied bench, unlimber the Loudenboomer and begin practicing. By the time I have popped off 10 or so rounds, someone adjacent to me (frequently both) will vacate his bench and move to another unoccupied bench further away from me.

At that point, my wife takes the now unoccupied bench next to me, unlimbers her .220 Swift and I switch over to my .25-06 or .30-06 and continue practicing.

Ka6otm

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #24 on:** April 04, 2003, 12:45:18 AM »

True, but muzzle brakes, or just a few heavy loads from the 45-70 have similar results.
Also, the loudest gun in our camp was not the 338WM I had, but a freinds 270Win with the 18" bbl. :eek:

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #25 on:** April 04, 2003, 12:46:53 AM »

I think I said earlier That magnums have their place, and I think long range is it.
But for most everyone, the shots are under 200yds, and you don't need a magnum for that.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #26 on:** April 04, 2003, 06:23:25 AM »

That's true Johnny, but the most popular deer rifle is a 30-06, and a deer doesn't require an '06 either. If you go by just what people need, a 30-30, 243, 25-06 would be what 90% of all rifles would be chambered for. If you take the arguement of not using more than you need and, as you say, limit to 200 yards, shoot the 30-30 is just about all anyone would need for anything except the big bears. That would do away with not only magnums, but 270 Win, 30-06, 280, 7x57, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 45/70, 35 Rem, 444 Marlin, and a whole host of other "standard" chamberings.

I know this is a campfire discussion, but to be truthful, let's include all chamberings that do "more" than is required. It's not a magnum beef when you get right down to it.

sideironjohn · « **Reply #27 on:** April 10, 2003, 07:17:27 PM »

Another nice thing about hotter cartridges (with or without the name "magnum") is the ability to shoot heavy-for-caliber bullets.
You never really know what a bullets terminal performance will be - just statistics (and usually very week ones at that.)
So, throw a heavier bullet, make a bigger hole, penetrate deeper, maintain a little more speed down at the target end.
It's not the end-all-be-all, but in many situations, "it cain't hurt!"
If the question is "do you need a magnum," I think the answer comes from the same place as the answer to "do you need to hunt?"
After all, those slaughterhouses are mighty effective at what they do....

TopGun · « **Reply #28 on:** April 11, 2003, 03:04:13 PM »

Hi guys. I need some help. I just picked up a Weatherby 30-378 that has exactly 13 rounds thru it. It is topped with a Leuopld VXIII 4.5x14, dies, brass, ammo, and a 5lb can of 5010. Cost? I will not embarrass the guy who sold it to me, but a fella can buy a new Leupold for more money! He said it kicked the snot out of him. I wanted it , I got it. He and I are very happy campers! I took it ot the range and I am amazed at how little it kicks. I was shooting from a bench, and I still can't believe it. I sighted 3" at 100 and it's still 3" high at 200, and it was under 2" group. That's as far as I can shoot locally. This is with the 180 Noslers. Does anyone have a favorite load, or info? I've never re-loaded a Weath'by case. Is is difficult? As far as recoil goes, I have a Ruger M77RSI in .308 winchester that kicks and hurts like a small mule! The Weath'by brake is extremely efficient. Anyone els have similar experience with these rifles.

SeanD · « **Reply #29 on:** April 11, 2003, 04:09:32 PM »

People associate the word "magnum" with something special. Its just a name. Is a 350 remington magnum more powerful than 35 whelen? No, but the name makes the uninformed think so. Is a 338 win mag a magnum more than a 30-06 is? It's really just a 30-06 that is bigger all the way around, but not faster. A 300 win mag is only bigger than a 30-06 when it comes to velocity. Generally i think most people associate "magnum" with velocity. Also most people think more velocity means more killling power, which isnt always the case. The average hunter is ignorant about the effects of high velocity. A 30-06 will penatrate more than a 30-30, but will a 300 ultra mag penatrate more than a 30-06? No it wont. I sold a 300 win mag to a guy, and he bought it because he wanted more power than the 30-06. He also isnt planning on buying premium bullets for it, because he is convinced the 300 win mag's extra power will make up for it. Like the 30-06 with premiums is equal to a 300 win mag with conventional bullets. When in reality, the higher velocity 300 win needs a controlled expansion bullet, because it will penatrate less than the 30-06 with the same bullets because of the higher velocity. But that doesnt make sense to some people.

My personal opinion is that most people are better off with a bigger, slower round. A 358 win or a 338-06 or 350 rem mag makes a whole lot more sense to me than a 7mm stw. I guess i dont equate velocity with killing power at all. Most of the standard round like the 30-06, 270, etc. gain nothing by increasing velocity for the average hunter.