Author Topic: Which gun should I grab first?  (Read 3587 times)

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Offline Gregory

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Which gun should I grab first?
« on: March 26, 2004, 12:08:08 PM »
I have the following guns in my safe that I would consider as possible home defense guns.  Which one would you grab first in an emergency situation?

1. Rem 12 ga. 870 with 20" smoothbore slug barrel with rifle sights
2. S&W Model 624 44 Special 6.5" barrel
3. Bushmaster Varminter AR-15 24" barrel with 3-9X scope
4. Beretta Tomcat 32 ACP


Second part to the question, for the gun you pick what would you load it with?
Greg

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Offline KN

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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2004, 12:12:44 PM »
Grab the Shotgun first, then slip the 44spl in your waistband.  KN

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2004, 12:40:01 PM »
870 for sure, buTt the ultimate would be that ar with 16 barrel! the  223 CARBINE IS THE BEST HOME DEFENSE WEAPON THERE IS! AND PLEASE SOMEBODY DOUBT ME! AS I HAVE A NOTE BOOK FULL OF TEST RESULTS AND INFO TO SUPPORT THAT CLAIM INCLUDING VIDEO OF SOME THESE TEST!     FLAME SUIT ON :twisted:

Offline KN

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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2004, 02:03:53 PM »
Deputy, I agree with your analysis but his is a 24" flat top. I do like to keep my shorty handy.   KN

Offline Gregory

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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2004, 01:53:50 AM »
Quote from: KN
Grab the Shotgun first, then slip the 44spl in your waistband.  KN


KN
Would you load slugs or buckshot(00 or #4) in the shotgun?  Handloads or factory loads in the 44?
Greg

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Offline savageT

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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2004, 02:07:29 AM »
I agree about the Rem 870 with 20" smoothbore....but DO NOT use slugs or Buckshot.  I would recommend using birdshot to limit penetration and lateral damage inside the house.  As far as the '44 S&W use factory loads ONLY.  If you end up in court you want all the support you can get.  Outside, well the Bushmaster is OK, but I still worry about where that projectile ends up???  Just my ramblings.

Jim
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Offline Captain Hobo

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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2004, 03:32:47 AM »
You should read the post that is titled "Slugs or Buckshot for home defense." I posted a reply suggesting the use of birdshot for home defense and someone replied to that, stating they did some tests and the birdshot wouldn't penetrate a 1" board at ten feet. And then they go on to say that the birdshot wouldn't penetrate a leather jacket or a carhart coat. I've never done any tests like this, so I am trusting what the guy says. Although I would not want to get shot in the torso at ten feet with a shotgun even if the pellets don't penetrate. I've read that even if a high-powered bullet doesn't go through a bulletproof vest, the energy trama can kill. I also think about my kids sleeping in the next room. That drywall isn't going to stop a shotgun slug, 00buck or a .223 slug.

Offline les hemby

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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2004, 04:14:02 AM »
capt hobo i will have to agree, i also have kids in the next room so my choice may not be the best choice, but in a shotgun i would also choose #4 shot. after the first shot if it dont kill em they wont want another :wink: This may not be a good test against humans,but i shot a coyote at about 35 yds with #4 shot and he went stifflegged and never took another step just fell over dead. No there wasnt a big hole or deep penetration but i guess it was the shock whatever it was worked and well. I feel pretty safe with anything from a 22 to 44 mag. I'm not a authority but for me in a shotgun i would put 2 #4 birdshot in front of 2 #4 buckshot in summer and 3 #4 buckshot in front of slugs in winter. But after the coyote i would agree birdshot probably wont penetrate a good leather coat, but inside it may not penetrate my kids room either. Actually me personally i believe i would rather keep a very accurate handgun or carbine that shoots a handgun cal. bullet just encase intruder is beside something i dont wanna shoot with big pattern. I personally keep a 686 357 loaded with 38+p. 357 is to loud for me without plugs. but i also love my 1894P with 44spec. just my :money:

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2004, 05:35:59 AM »
a 223with a high velocity 55-grain soft point or jhp or varmit load will not even penetrate 2 milk jugs of water at 7 yds! it also is usually trapped in the first layer of an interior wall  or in the insulation i will post the actual data od penetration in the next day or so!  during dept testing we found that most 223 loads int he 55 grain range didnt get 10 inches of penetration in jello testing most dept have gone to 223 instead of 9mm smg's for the saftey factor and increased stopping power.

Offline les hemby

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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2004, 07:02:52 AM »
i would agree 223 with varmit loads should be very effective with explosive results and little penetration. Muzzle blast and noise may be a factor :eek:  :eek:  :eek:

Offline NYH1

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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2004, 07:04:55 AM »
A 12 gauge with buckshot is the ultimate man stopper. You hit someone in the chest and its over. As stated earlier buckshot will over penetrate walls. I have a friend thats on our Sheriffs SWAT team and he always recommends bird shot for home protection.

As far as the 223 Rem go's, Deputy is right on the money. The 223 (5.56mm NATO) with soft point, hollow point and even ballistic tip bullets isn't the same animal that the military uses. The full metal jacket (awesome movie) bullets that the military uses will put a little hole in and a little hole out with out transferring much energy at all. Don't get me wrong they WILL KILL and over penetrate. If you use expandable bullets they transfer most if not all their energy and as Deputy said they may not go all the way through a person.

The 223 rifles such as the AR 15 and Mini 14 are much easier to shoot then a 12 gauge. Recoil is almost nonexistent. Making it a lot more fun to practice with. The more you practice the better off you'll be if you ever have to use it to save you and/or your families life.
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Offline NYH1

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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2004, 07:18:29 AM »
One more thing. As far as handguns go, their "defensive" weapons meaning their usually your last resort. When police go to a "seen" or a "stand off" and they think they might have use a weapon they have a rifle or a shotgun or at least some of them do. Their much more effective. Just something to think about.
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Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2004, 11:59:15 AM »
DEPUTY,

I agree with you on the .223 except that more and more today's felons are using body armor (bulletproof vests).  Just what does your tests show about the effectiveness of the .223 with 55 gr. soft point or jhp or varmint load on a vest?  The reason I ask is that my old department recommends that neophytes use a shotgun loaded with 0 or 00 buck and to aim for the upper body area (includes the head/neck).  I know that the last few burglars I arrested were wearing vests.

New York Hunter,

Forget the birdshot idea.  Most times it will not penetrate the thickness of most coats.  I still carry a few #6 shot from a hunting accident when I was a kid.  The distance was just over 20 yards when the guy cut loose on a pheasant and hit me too.  It was a warm day and I was wearing a shirt and a tee shirt.  Lawdog
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Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2004, 01:40:23 PM »
keep pressing the trigger you will punch through it i often keep a spare 20 rnd with fmj

Offline NYH1

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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2004, 07:51:01 PM »
Quote from: Lawdog

New York Hunter,

Forget the birdshot idea.  Most times it will not penetrate the thickness of most coats.  I still carry a few #6 shot from a hunting accident when I was a kid.  The distance was just over 20 yards when the guy cut loose on a pheasant and hit me too.  It was a warm day and I was wearing a shirt and a tee shirt.  Lawdog
 :D


For "home defense" where the distance is more likely to be 10, 20 maybe even 30 "feet", #8 trap loads are devastating. You really can't beat a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with anything for the typical "home defense" gun.

If a person does get shot with a 12 gauge at 10 to 20 "feet" and their wearing "body armor", its gonna knock them down so fast their not gonna know what happened! Be it #8, 00 Buckshot or slugs. Then you shoot them in "face" when they look at you , either way you win! :drink4:
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Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2004, 01:54:38 AM »
We had a man shot 2 yrs ago 5'7" 170 pounds at 11yds with a 12 gauge 00 federal tactical buckshot he took all nine pellets and a pair 45 hydra shocks 230 grain and lived!  no gun is a true fight stopper he survived, and has 11 holes in him, all were in the torso!one pellet was lodged in his strenum, bird shot is for shooting bunnies and birds not bad guys! do this measure your furthest shot in doors put up human target , now add a t shirt and say sweat shirt then shoot it using 8shot, then add a jacket of sorts then do it again! you will be suprised

Offline Captain Hobo

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« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2004, 10:10:06 AM »
Well, my indoor range won't let me shoot a shotgun there, and the wife won't let me shoot one in the basement. So I can't try the expermint and be surprised. Gie me hint, what will happen?

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2004, 12:23:16 PM »
you wont get the penetration neede to stop a bad guy

Offline Old Griz

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« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2004, 12:38:17 PM »
:cb2: My next door neighbor shot a desk one night with his .223 using a 68-gr. Hornedy BTHP. Hit it in the middle pencil drawer. Went through the front of the drawer, destroyed a bunch of writing utensils, but the bullet fragments did not exit the drawer. We're not talking solid oak, but cheap bargain desk. I was really surprised that it didn't penetrate any further than that. He was relieved, too. The hot water tank was on the other side of that wall the desk was up against! Hate to put a hole in that!

Asked him if he was going to have that desk stuffed and mounted, but he said it would take up too much space.
Griz
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Offline BamBams

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« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2004, 07:12:23 PM »
I'd grab the shotgun AND the 44.  "00" buck shot and hollow points.   I'd also have tritium night sights on both, and a "Surefire" tactical light on the shotgun.  The 3X9 scope on the Bushmaster isn't going to do you a whole lot of good in the dark.  The 32 ACP, well, ummmmmm......that would be my last choice.
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Offline Old Griz

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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2004, 05:39:13 PM »
:cb2: By the way, just because I'm not worried about over penetration by the .223, the first one I'd grab would be the 12 ga. Why hit the guy with one bullet, when with the same shot you can hit him with nine?!? Use the shotgun and spread the joy around!
Griz
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Offline Daveinthebush

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Won't penetrate a jacket.
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2004, 07:07:19 PM »
Birdshot won't penetrate a jacket?  Your using the wrong size and type of birdshot. My protection gun ia 21" 870 and has 3" mag. #2 steel in it.

Next to the bed is the 1911 .45 with 235 grain Remington hollow points and six clips.

If he is really big I have 15 rounds of 3" Brenneke 1 3/8 oz. mags.   :eek:
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Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2004, 01:55:12 PM »
As a compromise, I like #4 buckshot, backed up by a slug or two.  If I've failed to stop the bad guy with three rounds of #4 buck, the slugs oughta do it!   :shock:
44 Spl., W-W Silvertips or Gold Dots.
As for 223, the 40 grain Tactical loads are great for indoors, but LOUD!   :eek:
BTW, a famous African hunter used to carry a 12 gauge as backup after wounded leopards, a single shot loaded with #12 shot.  A leopard tried to pounce on him as he followed up the trail, he pulled the gun up and let fly, the leopard fell dead on (Not at!) his feet, with no face.  Sounds like it worked for him!   :wink:
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Offline Captain Hobo

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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2004, 02:42:46 PM »
Some guy that I work with told me that if you shoot a gun in your house at night, you will probably be blinded (temporary) and deafed by the blast. My bedroom is about 14 ft x 12 ft. If it's dark and I fired a 12 gauge loaded with 3 inch mag in my room at a burglar, I figure that would happen. I'm not sure about some of the posts where they claim they would fire off 6 rounds of 00buck 3 inch mag, then empty their .45 into the guy. Any comments?

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2004, 01:16:50 PM »
papajohn428,

Quote
BTW, a famous African hunter used to carry a 12 gauge as backup after wounded leopards, a single shot loaded with #12 shot. A leopard tried to pounce on him as he followed up the trail, he pulled the gun up and let fly, the leopard fell dead on (Not at!) his feet, with no face. Sounds like it worked for him!


Take a look at http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm and maybe it will change your mind on using a shotgun loaded with buckshot on dangerous game.   :D

Captain Hobo,

Quote
I'm not sure about some of the posts where they claim they would fire off 6 rounds of 00buck 3 inch mag, then empty their .45 into the guy. Any comments?


People that tell you stories like this do not know what they are talking about.  Period.  You put one mortal shot into a felon and then go on to empty your ".45 into the guy" are going to find yourself in more trouble than they could ever imagine.  Instead of the burglar going to prison for five to ten it will be them going for a heck of a lot longer.  Do not listen to these foolish people.  Just like the story some will try to tell you that if you shoot someone and they outside of your house to just drag them inside and you will be OK.  WRONG!!!  Lawdog
 :D
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Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2004, 07:12:03 AM »
Please all... bear with me as I answer the original question in this thread with my own opinion? And please remember the following is my own opinion?

First of all..... why are all your guns inside the safe? If a bad guy comes into your home there won't be time to open that thing and grap a gun!

Secondly, as far as the first gun to grab............ the loaded one! regardless of type or caliber or what it is loaded with.

Thirdly, as far as ammo goes....... I really can't say much about that since there are too many variables. If living alone with no close neighbors then buckshot is good for a shotgun.... hollow points for handguns... softnose for rifles. If family is also in the home or close by neighbors are in the possible line of fire... bird shot for the shotgun.... then move around to change the line of fire (if possible!) before going to a handgun or rifle.

Fourth, the point of aim is also going to be different depending on the gun used. Shotgun.... go for the upper chest/face area with birdshot, center of mass with buck or slug. Pistol or rifle... go for center of mass.

And lastly, all this is going to be acedemic when the actual situation is going down simply because events will be happening so fast, everything will be so confused, no one will be standing still waiting to be shot but will be either ducking or charging you ....or both and it will be hard to remember where your family/neighbors are in relation to the bad guy, your own adrenalin will be pumping affecting everything from decision making to holding the gun steady, you will experience tunnel vision, and if it is dark the muzzle blast will take even that away for a while, and you will go temporarily deaf from the report.

As far as worrying about what the courts or a jury will say about what ammo you used... which gun you used or how many times you shot the bad guy... the whole idea is to survive the encounter with the bad guy and worry about the courts later. I personally think it is better to save the lives of myself and my lady even if I end up in prison than to let the bad guy kill us. Hell, if allowing the bad guy to do his thing were the whole idea... why have a gun in the first place?

Which gun do I grab first when I think something isn't right? The closest loaded one! Which in my personal case means the one I'm wearing on my hip... even when home and outside or inside my house.
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Offline Robert357

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why not
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2004, 08:48:19 AM »
The best approach to a home invasion is to hole up behind several locked doors with proper protection after the police are summoned or get the hell out of the house and let the police deal with a potential life and death situation.

I would grab the shotgun.  Unlike almost everyone else in this thread, I don't believe that one type of bullet or cartridge is perfect for all situations.

Therefore, and this is why I have different 12-guage cartridges lined up in my gun safe at home.   The first shot is going to be the most important shot in a confrontation situation and may be fired without proper aiming due to being surprised.  Lots of different folks have different opinion.  This shot will either be a hit or it will not stop things.

If it doesn't stop things the best option is to back away and exit if you can.
If you can't exit, then you have to assume that your opponent is either attacking you or has taken cover.  If they have taken cover, I want something with penetration, i.e. slugs.  If they are hiding behind a plasterboard wall, I want something that will go right through that wall.  If they have taken cover, I also have an opportunity to waste a shot to give them something to both think about and to cycle a more penetrating round into my chamber. (which also might give me time to leave or them time to leave)

If on the otherhand they are charging at me, I want something with knockdown power, either large buckshot or slugs, probably large buckshot.

From my perspective, the shotgun (and yes the magazine plug should be removed!) should be loaded (reverse order of insertion) so that it fires, buckshot, buckshot, slug, slug, slug.

One person's perspective.

Offline Frank_Symptoms

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Which gun to grab first
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2004, 02:49:17 PM »
:money: I'd like to add a few words to the above discussion.
I keep WW Silvertips in ALL my handguns... guns are in a "fast-open" safe. I live in an apartment and have neighbors below me and in front. I'm SERIOUSLY considering Glaser Safety Slugs... but at $2.50 they are just a little pricey. :eek:
Considering the AR-15: Consider some of the new frangible bullets loaded for .223, in a couple of specially-marked magazines. These are 'sintered', not cast, slugs; the process involves heating metal dust to a high temperature, when it becomes malleable but not molten. Then they are pressed into shape. This means they will 'come apart' when they hit a backstop, felon, or other suitable target. These are the ONLY high-power bullets my local range allows. At 75 feet they provide adequate accuracy from my T/C Contender carbine. The local range charges $20 per 40 rounds... still less than the Glasers.
A good day shooting is when my bullets group better than my brass!

Offline huntsman

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« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2004, 03:46:01 AM »
It would depend greatly on the situation at hand. I would try to have the safe secured with a single quick-opening lock, key around my neck if possible, located in a secondary room where I slept, preferably behind an obstacle (closet door, bed, dresser, etc.) to provide some cover if the intruder did burst in while I was still arming. I will assume for discussion that you will have time to open the safe while not under fire and have a few seconds to arm yourself. If not, then I would reach for whichever of the loaded handguns could come out first and firing. After getting some space and time, if possible, then I would pull out a longer gun and stuff the handguns in my belt as below.

If I was in a spacious home during daylight hours where lighting is adequate and space allows for shots over 25', not a lot of corners or small rooms, then I might lean toward the AR-15, but I would grab it only after quickly belting the 44 special as a close-range, one-hand backup gun. I would also put the 380 in my belt on the off side if time allowed. Be sure the AR scope is turned down to the lowest magnification setting if a variable.

In a tighter space or at night I would prefer the shotgun loaded with alternating rounds of 2 3/4" 00 buck and slugs. The lighter rounds would reduce the possibility of collateral damage. I would keep a small flashlight strapped to the business end of the barrel that you could turn on at night. Put it far enough back on the barrel that the light illuminates the front sight bead. Then if given time I would tuck in my handguns as above.

While the .223 may well be the best round for rapid energy diffusion in the target, the weapon configuration of the AR-15 (24" barrel and especially the scope) would make it much less manueverable in a close-range situation. If collateral damage is a high concern (such as in a home with tight quarters and many occupants), then I would try to find someone to handload some reduced loads of the slugs (to about 900 fps) for me or do it myself if I'm a handloader. If not I would avoid the shotgun or else go all buckshot with one or two last slug rounds only. The handguns would be loaded with hollow point ammunition.

An alert house dog is an invaluable defense in a home intrusion, especially at night. First, it will wake you and/or warn of an intruder faster than you will generally know yourself. Second, it may deter the intruder, causing him/her to abort the intrusion and avoid a confrontation altogether. Third, it gives the intruder an immediate obstacle to deal with, possibly one that wasn't anticipated. Fourth, the dog may actually handicap the intruder by attacking or take a bullet that would have been aimed at you or a family member. While it is heartbreaking to lose a beloved pet, it is a worthwhile price to pay for your own life and that of your loved ones.
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Offline Bikenut

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« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2004, 04:44:06 AM »
Quote from: huntsman
It would depend greatly on the situation at hand.


Absolutely! The thing that is disturbing about those "situations" is they never work out the way we think they will. But they do share some commonalities.......

1. There will not be much, if any, warning.

2. There will definately NOT be any time to respond.

3. The bad guy will always have the advantage because he started it and we can only react.

4. Unless the gun is in your hand, or on you, or within reaching distance you will probably not have the chance to use it.

5. Conditions will be less than optimal... it will be dark, raining, snow underfoot, nothing to hide behind, etc....

6. Any gun not loaded and ready to go is useless. (See 1 and 2.)

What to do? Keep a loaded gun, any loaded gun, within easy reach at all times. That includes while home relaxing watching TV with the family or asleep at night.
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