Author Topic: 45/70 for Lion (Read 6148 times)

Ghoster · « **on:** March 26, 2004, 12:57:52 PM »

How would a 45/70 work for Lion? From what I've read on this cartridge

, it has some decent stopping power.

Lawdog · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2004, 11:24:51 AM »

Ghoster,

While it would kill a lion maybe the question should be SHOULD you use a .45-70 for African Lion hunting? I asked a few PH's on their opinions on using my .450 Marlin(the ballistic twin or better of the .45-70) and although they didn't actually say no the sound of silence said volumes. Also I understand that a number of countries in Africa have an energy minimum which the standard factory load(such as Win. and others as this is what they use not hot loads from Buffalo or Cor Bon or your own reloads) .45-70 falls short of. If I were you I would ask this question on the African Hunting board. Our resident PH, JJ Hack, will give you an answer. Lawdog

Riflemanz · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2004, 03:04:31 PM »

Ask on this site!
http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&PHPSESSID=

500grains · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2004, 03:37:11 PM »

Quote from: Ghoster

How would a 45/70 work for Lion? From what I've read on this cartridge , it has some decent stopping power.

In Zimbabwe, a DG caliber must generate at least 3909 ft. lbs of energy. The hottest 45-70 load I have found, outside of fantasy ballistics, comes in at 3200 ft lbs. And even then, sectional density has been sacrificed to get energies up. With a 450 or 500 grain bullet, the 45-70 is looking at less than 3000 ft. lbs. of energy - a far cry from the legal minimum.

That being said, even spears work for lion if you place your shot just right and the lion runs in the opposite direction after being hit. However, with lion hunts costing $30,000+, I cannot see any advantage in taking a caliber that is under the legal minimum.

Further, we should ask ourselves why the shooting public ran away from the 45-70 and flocked to the 30-30 beginning in 1894. In the field it has been observed that velocities above 2000 fps (with appropriate sectional density) kill much better than velocities in the 1500 fps range. The 45-70 with 500 grain bullets is a 1500 fps affair.

Buckeye · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2004, 12:07:45 AM »

Big,heavy, slow moveing bullets make big holes that useally go all the wat thru.
The 405 Win. was revered,as loin medicine,it is the ballistic twin to a 444 Marlin.
It would hard to Imagine a better round than a properly loaded 45/70,being fired out of a short barreled ,fast handling 7lb. fast cycling carbine,that can send a 400gr. hardcast bullet all the way thru. (lengthwise) a Cape Buffalo !
Personly I'd handload a 45/70 as if I was hunting a Big Black Bear,with 405gr. Rem. softpoint pushed to bout 1850fps. Big hole going in ,bigger going out!

Buckeye

va_hunter · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2004, 02:43:42 AM »

Very good article (actually two) on the Garrett Ammunition site, under zlupo Safari about Vince Lupo's AFrica trips to bag his Big Six with a 45/70. Good read, very informative. Describes killing an elephant, white rhino, cape buffalo and yes, a lion. Obviously there may be restrictions in some areas, but not where he went. www.garrettcartidges.com

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2004, 01:55:07 PM »

Depending on local laws, I guess a lion could get one if he wants to. Never mind. Really, if you are going to blow the big change on the big trip, take something that's proven. The 45-70 comes too close to being a stunt. The middle of thorn thicket might not be the place to find out that it really didn't work as well as it said in the magazine. You may only get one good shot, why take a chance with it after all that time and money?

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2004, 08:48:50 AM »

Ghoster

"How would a 45/70 work for Lion? From what I've read on this cartridge

, it has some decent stopping power.[/quote]"

From the comments already posted it is easy to see a divergence of opinion. Some have experience based opinions and others are just quoting factory energy figures. There are 45-70s and then there are 45-70s. If you are talking about trapdoor level (original specs) then it would do if you had no better choice. If you are talking about Marlin/Garrett level performance then you are into decent "lion" medicine. However, if you are talking the level of power attainable from a Ruger SS or a Siamese Mauser actioned 45-70 then lions are well within their relm. In my own Siamese Mauser 45-70 I push a 400 gr Barnes SP at 2300 fps. How fast does a .416 Rem or Rigby push the same weight bullet? I also push a 500 gr cast at 2025 fps which only trails the .458 Mag by a very few fps and I doubt a lion would know the difference.

The big point is, as mentioned in an earlier post, with the cost of a lion hunt you will want to go with something proven. Most people will consider police officers to be a "firearms experts" but they do not know how little most police officers know about firearms. Conversely I have conversed with numerous PHs and guides, seen enough videos and have an extensive book collection to know that most guides and PHs are not "firearms experts" either. They have opinions right, wrong or indifferent and most often prefer to "go with" what they know works. If they are not familiar with it they will usually cast aspirations against it. There are of course exceptions with either police officers and PHs as a few (very few) are quite knowledgeable about firearms. Those who think a 400 gr bullet out of a Marlin 45-70 at 1700 to 1800 fps is not lion medicine are speaking from opinion not experience. I certainly would not hesitate in the least to hunt lion with my "45-70" Siamese and the 400 gr Barnes SP load.

The legality of it in certain locations has its limits, but if legal a properly loaded 45-70 should (and has) suffice nicely on lions.

Larry Gibson

Fla Brian · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2004, 10:41:19 AM »

Quote from: 500grains

Quote from: Ghoster
How would a 45/70 work for Lion? From what I've read on this cartridge , it has some decent stopping power.

Further, we should ask ourselves why the shooting public ran away from the 45-70 and flocked to the 30-30 beginning in 1894. In the field it has been observed that velocities above 2000 fps (with appropriate sectional density) kill much better than velocities in the 1500 fps range. The 45-70 with 500 grain bullets is a 1500 fps affair.

1) It couldn't possibly have been the fact that the .30-30 was the first smokeless sporting cartridge, offered in a light, handy repeater - in 1895, by the way, could it? American shooters and hunters have always had a tendency to go for the latest and fastest.
But, as you might have noticed, the .45-70 is still going strong after all these years. How is that possible if we've "run away" from that cartridge?

2) Quoting Trapdoor Springfield ballistics as representative of what modern .45-70 cartridge/rifle ballistics are is just as fair as quoting .44-40 ballistics for a .44 magnum.

3) "In the field it has been observed that velocities above 2000 fps (with appropriate sectional density) kill much better than velocities in the 1500 fps range." In the field observed by whom? You don't consider bullet weight to be a factor? Are you saying that 500fps additional speed will overcome a 330 -350 grain advantage in bullet weight at any reasonable range? Those old black powder .45-70s did a pretty good job of knocking down American Bison, a pretty large critter, not to mention elk and large bears.

4) There are modern .45-70 loads that fall within a few hundred feet shy of a .458WM, exceeding the 2000 fps figure you mentioned. I don't think there are any lions out there that could tell the difference.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 14, 2004, 06:21:45 AM »

Why do we hear & read so much about the 45-70 being used on cape buf and elephants as great killer, but when it comes to lions it seems to fall short ? I would think a lion would be significantly easier to kill than a lion.

moosehead · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2004, 06:38:31 PM »

Hi all...Im new here but would like to comment on this. Hunting lion is a little different. You usually use a solid for a headshot on an ELEPH. A loin, on the other hand, a broadside shot is usually the best. A 45-70 with the right bullet and the right load will do the trick. Make sure you put him down though. They don't like getting shot at and will come after you.

Lawdog · « **Reply #11 on:** May 30, 2004, 08:49:04 AM »

Fla Brian,

Quote

4) There are modern .45-70 loads that fall within a few hundred feet shy of a .458WM, exceeding the 2000 fps figure you mentioned. I don't think there are any lions out there that could tell the difference.

When talking to the outfitter the other night I brought up this subject and was told that the governments used standard load data(Win., Rem, etc.) as a guideline when deciding whether or not to allow the use of a certain cartridge. Data from companies like Cor-Bon, Hornady Magnum, etc. are not taken into account. He also told me that the PH is the person that usually decides whether or not you can use whatever caliber or not. If he says OK and you end up wounding a dangerous animal that gets someone hurt/killed it is his license/career that is on the line. Use what your outfitter/PH recommends. Small groups and tight lines to all. Lawdog

Rmouleart · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2004, 03:31:17 AM »

The man to ask any questions about Hunting in Africa and the 45/70 is Vince Lupo he is the man, he has killed all the top six trophy animals in Africa using a 45/70. There is some info on http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupoindex.asp
Enjoy Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Vince Lupo and lion taken with 420-grainers. One shot through the shoulders and one through the brain

onesonek · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2004, 01:38:50 PM »

There's no doubt in my mind that a 45-70 with the proper bullet, will kill a lion, but stop him, under less than ideal circumstances may be another matter!
Ultimately, it's up to the governing laws and or, your PH whether it's legal or feasible to use.
Dave

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2004, 01:54:49 PM »

Every time I read that guy's story about the elephant "hunt", it just turns my stomach. I can't agree with why or how that guy hunts. Using spotter planes or ultralights isn't hunting. Neither is bragging that you'll go into the Guiness book of records because you used a 45/70.

I just cannot respect someone like that.

vhunter · « **Reply #15 on:** September 11, 2004, 02:03:36 PM »

I believe there are better cartriges for the task but the 45/70 will do the job within it's range and proper shot placement, I would use it!

dannytoro · « **Reply #16 on:** September 24, 2004, 12:11:56 PM »

....I'm well aware that the 45/70 loaded with a 400 grain Barnes original or SSP bullet to 1900 FPS will break the bone structures of both the Brown bear and the Polar Bear for that matter. I do not think a lion would be much different. In fact Barnes says it's ok for Cape Buffalo. I doubt I'd try it loaded to 2300FPS in my Straight Double, that would certainly give quite a pop to the shoulder!

Judson · « **Reply #17 on:** October 19, 2004, 03:41:58 PM »

Unless you have a rifle that can handle the hotter load like those for the Ruger # 1 you might be a good lunch for the kitty!!!!

Questor · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2004, 05:13:27 AM »

Somewhat off the topic of lion, but I know a rancher that allows bison to be hunted on his land, and he takes a very dim view of the 45-70 and related cartridges. He has seen their killing power and recommends a higher velocity cartridge instead, like 300 magnum and up using bullets built to penetrate.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2004, 07:18:58 AM »

That is a weird remark about the 45/70, due to the 45/70 been killing Buff for many years, with in it's range the 45/70 properly loaded can bring down anything with fur on the planet, of course proper shot placement is a must, I seem to remember a year ago, a hunter shot a buffalo using a 45/70 using buffalobore ammo, his shot was a front chest shot, not the best shot, but he wanted this paticular buffalo, so he let it fly, after recovering the buffalo noticed the bullet traveled the whole length of the body, to me thats true penetration any day of the week

, maybe some of those folk were using lower pressure trap door ammo, but even at that they should do the job just fine, back in the days it was blackpowder pressures and still knocking them right down, but like I always say shot placement is bottom line, and a properly constructed bullet plays in as well. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Questor · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2004, 08:51:22 AM »

Rmouleart

I was surprised by it too, but they have shot a lot of buffalo there over the years and they know what works and what doesn't. Meat quality is an issue because the hunter is stuck with a lot of meat at the end of the hunt. To ensure best quality, they want the animal to die as quickly as possible. They have learned that modern cartridges work much better, and truly discourage the use of blackpowder era cartridges. Another interesting phenomenon is that a wounded and struggling buffalo will be attacked and killed by others in the herd. If the animal dies quickly, the others are not bothered.

I always like to get the opinions of the people who actually have a lot of experience, and I've found that my preconceived notions often prove to be total garbage.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2004, 03:03:47 PM »

Quote from: 500grains

Quote from: Ghoster
How would a 45/70 work for Lion? From what I've read on this cartridge , it has some decent stopping power.

In Zimbabwe, a DG caliber must generate at least 3909 ft. lbs of energy.
.

Is this for real ?

I can't imagine any hesitation on using a 45-70 for lion. If you can use a 45-70 to kill the largest preditor on the planet (brown bear), how can it fall short on lion which is significanlty less of an animal. I think all this talk about the 45-70 falling short for lion is a bunch of BS. I would use a 30-06 without hesitation on lion and some lesser calibers yet.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2004, 04:56:34 PM »

Those requirements are included in the Zim Game Laws. It wasn't targeting the 45/70, in particular, but trying to keep people from hunting DG with cartridges they didn't deem adequate. I think the 3909 ftlbs was set as the minimum, because at the time, they considered the 9.3x62mm to be what they considered the least powerful cartridge that they would accept. That ft-lbs of energy and the 9.3mm diameter are both requirements. Probably identified to keep the Nato military rounds and firearms out of the hunting fields as well.

This law has been abused in the past few years, so I'm not sure if they are really enforcing this or not, but it is the law. I, for one, would not want to end up in a Zimbabwe prison given the current state of affairs there right now.

coltnavy36 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2005, 06:33:26 PM »

That is true.
As for Lion, anyone who would want to use a 45-70 on one, needs to kneel down, and pray for blessings to be upon himself and his rifle for at least 24 hours before embarking on such a foul endeavor.
Then again, it has been done.
But i'm not one who is about to try it, EVER.
D

pc · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2005, 12:15:24 AM »

Quote from: cabin4

Quote from: 500grains
Quote from: Ghoster
How would a 45/70 work for Lion? From what I've read on this cartridge , it has some decent stopping power.

In Zimbabwe, a DG caliber must generate at least 3909 ft. lbs of energy.
.

Is this for real ?

I can't imagine any hesitation on using a 45-70 for lion. If you can use a 45-70 to kill the largest preditor on the planet (brown bear), how can it fall short on lion which is significanlty less of an animal. I think all this talk about the 45-70 falling short for lion is a bunch of BS. I would use a 30-06 without hesitation on lion and some lesser calibers yet.

If I ever get to hunt lion it would be with either a .375 H&H loaded with a 300 gr soft nose or a .416 Rigby loaded with a 410 gr woodleigh soft and I would prefer the latter gun.

I will keep my marlin 45/70 for shooting pigs and grassy's at which it works extremely well.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 13, 2005, 02:56:04 AM »

No matter how much I love the 45-70, I would use my 416 Rigby on a Lion.

Les Staley · « **Reply #26 on:** November 13, 2005, 05:24:37 AM »

I cleanly killed a bison cow with my Shilo Sharps Hartford model in 45-70.. I had a 300gr hp ahead of 43 gr of RL 7.. a fairly mild load.. shot in the base of the skull, dropped instantly.. the rancher and his wife were duely impressed as they had had several killed with deer rifle calibers that were not so quick.. one experiance is better than none.... FYI Les

tanoose · « **Reply #27 on:** November 23, 2005, 09:52:26 AM »

I myself would prefer a 458 LOtt with 500 grainers at 2300fps or a 470 with 500 grainers at 2150 but i dont see why a 45/70 with 460 grain wfngc at 1800 wouldn't get the job done. the 30/06 with 220 grain bullets has taken alot of lions also.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 23, 2005, 11:31:29 AM »

Quote from: Les Staley

I cleanly killed a bison cow with my Shilo Sharps Hartford model in 45-70.. I had a 300gr hp ahead of 43 gr of RL 7.. a fairly mild load.. shot in the base of the skull, dropped instantly.. the rancher and his wife were duely impressed as they had had several killed with deer rifle calibers that were not so quick.. one experiance is better than none.... FYI Les

Big difference between Lion and a Bison cow.

Lawdog · « **Reply #29 on:** November 23, 2005, 12:42:36 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

Quote from: Les Staley
I cleanly killed a bison cow with my Shilo Sharps Hartford model in 45-70.. I had a 300gr hp ahead of 43 gr of RL 7.. a fairly mild load.. shot in the base of the skull, dropped instantly.. the rancher and his wife were duely impressed as they had had several killed with deer rifle calibers that were not so quick.. one experiance is better than none.... FYI Les

Big difference between Lion and a Bison cow.[/quote]

You mean that one eats grass and the other eats a**!! Lawdog