45/70 for Lion

[Redhawk1]

I cleanly killed a bison cow with my Shilo Sharps Hartford model in 45-70..  I had a 300gr hp ahead of 43 gr of RL 7.. a fairly mild load.. shot in the base of the skull, dropped instantly.. the rancher and his wife were duely impressed as they had had several  killed with deer rifle calibers that were not so quick..   one experiance is better than none....   FYI    Les

Big difference between Lion and a Bison cow.[/quote]

You mean that one eats grass and the other eats a**!!  Lawdog
 

Yea that one... :-D

[ironfist]

There is a lion hunt footage I forget where I saw it recently. Shows a guy with a group of about five hunters. The PH instructs the guy to shoot, he has a rifle supported on sticks etc. Well he shoots, probably wounds the big cat and then like in out of africa the darn thing comes charging in. Two hunters shoot into it as it charges at about five or so feet...no effect it claws the guy who first shot it...stumbles as a volley of shots are fired, turns around and runs back towards the bush/jungle...finally it dies . Man I really wonder what caliber would stop such a huge pissed animal.

I'll try to find the video and post it. OOps its already here read the post entitled big brass ones. Don't know what they are blasting with but that's real scary.
  Ironfist

[jro45]

The 45/70 might have enought power but I don't want to find out. For any DG I would use my 416 Rem.

[coltnavy36]

In my experience, what grips me more about the Lion is their intelligence.
They would give the Chimpanzee and the Dolphin fits in an IQ test.
As the case may be, your not dealing with an Elk, or a Bison, as has been mentioned above.
They have the ability to get to you very fast, and when they do, they do not stop to ask when you may want a breather. They will kill you just as dead as the poor souls you may find at your funeral home.
They don't care, and you will find that out quickly in a few milliseconds, when one turns on you. After all, they are the ones being shot.
In this case, the 45-70 is just plain not enough. And to be honest, neither is any other caliber. No matter how big.
I've personally seen a frisky feline take two consecutive hits from a .450 double, and only get into an overdrive mode.
Accuracy is the best factor in any case. No matter the caliber.
If you don't hit him right the first time, your in trouble.
I would not recommend anything less than 500grs. at 2100-2150fps.
The .470 is good.
But there have been times when a .577 was not enough.
I LOVE the .450, mainly because I have a hand-me-down double in this caliber and I shoot it well, and this should be the first priority at all times. Shooting your rifle with ACCURACY.
I have often thought that if I had back-up on Lion, I would want him there with a double or pump 12 ga. with heavy handloaded hard-cast conicals, much like the old Paradoxes.
OK, I'm long-winded here, but I'll finish by saying that, from experience, it is good policy to go with the LARGEST rifle, that YOU can shoot ACCURATELY under pressure. For cats, the larger the dia. of the bullet the better. But, that bullet needs more velocity than the 45-70 can produce with a 500 grainer.
Because if you try it with 350 grainers, your either trusting too much in your PH, or you have a death wish. Neither of which is going to get you to heaven any quicker.
As a note, I have a good-ol cat rug here in the living room. Rug, with head mount, in your basic story-book angry looking stare. I can walk up to it, kneel down at the head mount, and when 45-70 comes to mind, the second thought is "un-even odds".
-coltnavy36-

[JoeLansing]

Here's the video that was mentioned earlier of the "exciting" lion hunt.  Maybe these guys needed a 45/70?  I think I'd have wanted my 12ga pump once it got interesting...:shock:

http://www.gwapo.org/fun/lionhunt.wmv  3.2MB

  -  Joe

[Lawdog]

Here's the video that was mentioned earlier of the "exciting" lion hunt.  Maybe these guys needed a 45/70?  I think I'd have wanted my 12ga pump once it got interesting...:shock:

http://www.gwapo.org/fun/lionhunt.wmv  3.2MB

  -  Joe

Before you grab that 12 ga. pump for protection against a Lion you might want to read the following; http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm.  It's far from the best shoice.  Lawdog
 

[coltnavy36]

Gave the .450 Nitro a couple of rounds through it today, at a Coke can, and my opinions are still the same. Whereas my 45-70 puts neat holes through the Coke cans or sometimes cuts them in half if hit oddly, with the .450 I have to walk all over the place picking up small pieces of red and silver tin.
Would you want the 45-70 hitting the shoulder of that 500 pounder, or that .450 Rigby?
And for those that complain of recoil, I always have to wonder if they have thought of how much their shotgun kicks when bird hunting.
Not much difference.
And when it comes time, recoil is not much, because your mind is preoccupied with the animal, much as in bird hunting.
I understand that economical reasons also come into play.
I Fully understand this, believe me.
But their are options, and I have seen good Mauser actioned rifles of good caliber, go for a lot cheaper than any #lever 45# on the market.
Or is it general interest for the firearm or caliber-45-70 in question?
If this is the case, then go for it, I say.
One has to be interested in something, be it a particular gun, or cartridge, etc.
Nothing wrong with that.
And in that respect, I suppose one could get quite proficient with a certain caliber, enough to trust it, and be accurate with it.
Interest, accuracy, and trust in your skills as well as the firearm.
If a 45-70 meets all of these, then it's the ticket.
Downright lovely.
---coltnavy36---

p.s.-I would not go with a pump 12 gauge, unless loaded as I mentioned earlier.
Factory slugs of any kind are out of the question.
OO-Buck is good Leopard medicine though at a handshake distance, or so I've read. Have not had the courtesy of living through that type scenario, and don't want to either.

[mr.frosty]

Here's the video that was mentioned earlier of the "exciting" lion hunt.  Maybe these guys needed a 45/70?  I think I'd have wanted my 12ga pump once it got interesting...:shock:

http://www.gwapo.org/fun/lionhunt.wmv  3.2MB

  -  Joe

Before you grab that 12 ga. pump for protection against a Lion you might want to read the following; http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm.  It's far from the best shoice.  Lawdog
 

good read and yes the old shotgun doesnt stop everything......

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Very interesting viewpoints on this thread...  What I find amazing is how the "safari" guys downplay something like the Marlin 1895G while at the same time it has become one of the top choices for Alaskan brown bear guides?

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Link to Linebaugh's penetration tests

Jim

[coltnavy36]

Well,,,,
could be because a Lion is not a Bear.
And in Africa, you have more than one species to deal with at ALL times, no matter what you ARE hunting for.
Also, I've pretty much heard that everyone up there in big bear country caters more to the .450 Alaskan these days when they can get there hands on one, which is hard to do. They are prized way more than the 45-70.
AND, I'd rather have a bear headed in my direction than a Lion-any day.
While big bears are certainly not a species to be trifled with, they are still bears. Not Lions.

[Lawdog]

Very interesting viewpoints on this thread...  What I find amazing is how the "safari" guys downplay something like the Marlin 1895G while at the same time it has become one of the top choices for Alaskan brown bear guides?

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Link to Linebaugh's penetration tests

Jim

I know a number of "Bear Guides" in Alaska and none of them own much less carry a .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun.  The preferred cartridge of them for defense is the .375 H&H with the .416 Rem. and the .458 Winchester after that.  Lawdog
 

[bulldurham]

when my buddy came back from alaska in 95 he brought with him a 45-70 i asked what the heck did you buy that ol time caliber for and he said thats what just about all the locals carry for bear medicine. maybe they were just bs'n him or he me ? dunno never been there.

i was doin a lil research on this site about the ol 45-70 and came across a link that some one posted and it showed the 45/70 had penetrated 52" of wet newspaper more than even a 470 nitro exspress...... to my point have any of you ever heard of peter capstick? i used to read his safari books all the time when i was a kid, and he talked about a particular lion hunt wich bares relevance. this particular lion was shot in the heart 6or seven times by his ol 375 h&h and a few times with a 470 nitro and it died about 8 feet from there feet when they skined the animal its heart and lungs were mush literally and he said that sometimes no matter what you throw at them lions it just isnt enough. so yes a 45-70 will most likely kill a lion but if im going to africa and spending the big bucks not to mention my life will be at stake im taking the biggest baddest catridge i can find period. incidentally i have a buddy that works with a doctor whose family owns a big ranch in africa and he travels there frequently and he has killed just about everything africa has to offer with a .404 jeffrey long winded i know you guys orta check out some of peter capsticks books good reading material

[Yukon Jack]

I know of exactly one BB guide that carries a 45/70 and he doesn't carry it all the time, though he does typically carry a lever gun of some sort.  All the guides I know carry 375 H&H's, 416's (various) and 458's.  Lots of Alaskans carry the 45/70 as backcountry protection firearm, but of those, I don't know many that have killed a bear with them.  Some Alaskans hunt with their 45/70 when going after BB, but most use something else.

Not trying to stir the pot, just the facts as I know them in my neck of the woods.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Not trying to stir the pot, just the facts as I know them in my neck of the woods.

 :-D   No problem with stirring the pot a little!

Ok, why ISN'T a hot loaded Marlin 1895GS enough for lions?  Would not a hardcast slug hotloaded go lengthways through a lion while crushing any bone that got in the way?  A lot of people are talking about the "old school" safari calibers...  Doesn't a heavy, hard cast bullet with a large meplat cause more tissue damage than those safari guns shooting their solids?

Jim

[bulldurham]

Not trying to stir the pot, just the facts as I know them in my neck of the woods.[/quote]

speaking the truth is not stirring the pot. all i know is what i been told i do not regrettably live there. thanks for the info  prolly for the better even colorado was too dang cold for this desert rat  :-D

that lion video was awesome. that guied really kept his cool under pressure. i believe had that of been a griz things would have been much worse IMHO. thats pretty funny how they show an ad for an outfitter outta delores colorado. my cousin lives in colorado and i have hunted elk with him up there. thats the last place i would exspect to see a ad for a delores outfitter.

[Yukon Jack]

Not trying to stir the pot, just the facts as I know them in my neck of the woods.

 :-D   No problem with stirring the pot a little!

Ok, why ISN'T a hot loaded Marlin 1895GS enough for lions?  Would not a hardcast slug hotloaded go lengthways through a lion while crushing any bone that got in the way?  A lot of people are talking about the "old school" safari calibers...  Doesn't a heavy, hard cast bullet with a large meplat cause more tissue damage than those safari guns shooting their solids?

Jim

I have no idea if it is enough for lion, seems like with the proper bullets and load, it would be fine.

Most people hunting lions use expanding bullets, not solids.  That would be the only drawback of the 45/70 (if there is one) not getting expansion from the hardcast slugs, but the slap of those big meplats should cause some serious damage.  I don't think penetration from a .45 caliber rifle with a bullet of good construction and sectional density pushing along at good speeds should be an issue.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

Most people hunting lions use expanding bullets, not solids.  

Kinda' shows you how much I know about hunting lions! :-D

Jim

[coltnavy36]

Most of the time, penetration tests are not very good indicators of how a particular bullet is going to act in the field.
There are too many variables.
Even with the large "safari" rifles as you put it.
No matter the caliber, or energy, there are ALWAYS variables.
What one has to do, or what common sense says to do, is to have an EDGE over these variables.
In my opinion, although not the only one accepted of course, is that "bigger is better, but not too big to effect personal shooting abilities".
In other words, if you find it hard to shoot anything bigger than the 45-70 accurately,  then go with the 45-70.
It is better to have a rifle that is good for YOU, than to have one that is going to cause even more trouble because one cannot shoot it well due to either recoil, or a host of other causes.
My 8mm Mauser is not THAT big of a cartridge, compared to most, but it is one rifle that I am very familiar with and that I trust to hit dead-to-rights spot on most of the time, even with surplus ammo.
If I were to go Elk hunting for instance, and were offered a new heavier caliber rifle that was not familiar to me, I would stay with the 8mm I have, and it is because of the simple fact that I know it's limitations and it's true abilities, both in rifle and cartridge. Possibly it would be on the very light side of Elk calibers, but I would know and be familiar with THAT gun and cartridge.
To be honest, if I were a PH, and my client pulled out his guns for show and tell, I would rather he have a .375H@H that he can be deadly with, than a .600 Nitro, that he cannot hit an Elephant at 15 paces with, and believe it or not, that has happened in the past.
So, long story short, if you are proficient with the 45-70, then go with it.
Only work up to larger calibers, as time may permit, and become familiar with those also.
Steadily work toward a happy medium, both in rifle, cartridge, and shooting abilities.
In other words, if you are just as deadly with a .470, as you are a .45-70, then go with the .470. There is no need in INTENTIONALLY going with a lesser caliber, when one is just as deadly with a larger one.
But if the 45-70 is all you can be proficient with, then by all means STAY with it.
---coltnavy36---

[Lawdog]

Not trying to stir the pot, just the facts as I know them in my neck of the woods.

 :-D   No problem with stirring the pot a little!

Ok, why ISN'T a hot loaded Marlin 1895GS enough for lions?  Would not a hardcast slug hotloaded go lengthways through a lion while crushing any bone that got in the way?  A lot of people are talking about the "old school" safari calibers...  Doesn't a heavy, hard cast bullet with a large meplat cause more tissue damage than those safari guns shooting their solids?

Jim

From what different outfitters and PH's have told me is that the velocity data used by the different countries in Africa comes from major ammo companies like Federal, Winchester, etc.  No handloads or hot loads are considered.  I went thru this when I asked about my .450 Marlin.  Hornady factory loads don’t come up to their velocity/energy standards.  Lawdog
 

[DakotaElkSlayer]

From what different outfitters and PH's have told me is that the velocity data used by the different countries in Africa comes from major ammo companies like Federal, Winchester, etc.  No handloads or hot loads are considered.  I went thru this when I asked about my .450 Marlin.  Hornady factory loads don’t come up to their velocity/energy standards.  Lawdog
 

You guys have "been around the block" a lot more than I have so I was wondering about this whole KE thing.  What do you guys think of the following article?  One thing to take into account is that the author is a cast bullet manufacturer...

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/55

Jim

[Coyote Hunter]

One of the members at www.marlinowners.com is a vet that has had to cull bison herds.  I think hes taken something like 29 bison with a .45-70 and I think all were one-shot affairs.  Granted, this is a bit different than shooting a charging lion.

Vince Lupo took the Big Six in Africa and the .45-70 with Garret Hammerheads aquitted itself well.  You can argue about his methods and reasons but its hard to argue with the results of the .45=70 Hammerheads.

In one of the gun rags the authore went on a cape buff hunt and took a broadside shot at one, not realizing there was another one standing a ways behind it.  The bullet killed them both and exited the second.  

Having seen what a 460g hardcast at 1812fps or a 350g North Fork bonded will do at 2183fps, I wouldn't hesitate to use them on lion.

[coltnavy36]

There have also been two one-shot kills with a .22 rimfire on Elephant. :roll:

"Use enough gun." Ruark

[coltnavy36]

DakotaElkSlayer----

for some reason my browser will not open that article. Probably the server I'm running through.
 
I pay a good deal of attention to Taylor KO values, which as they are, many people argue about them, but I have found them to be good to go by. Have even made my own complete game-categories using them, and most of the time I go by them, although opinions differ, and sometimes I may stress for a larger caliber than one may wish to use, such as the 45-70.
There is definately nothing wrong with the 45-70, as it is one of the ALL time greats, but it has limitations also, and I could never trust it, speaking personally, to drive a buff's nose in the ground at 20 ft.

Yes, it has taken nearly ALL of the American Bison that there was, and many other game animals. Wonderful cartridge.
I've got one, and I love it.
But I can't see myself using it for some applications, such as what has been discussed.
Not when a barrel for a .416 Taylor costs a mere $80.00, and a Mauser action $30.00.
I simply fail to see the logic behind any use of the .45-70 against dangerous game.
I simply fail to see it.
But, that should not influence anyone else, as ALL of this is personal opinion, and one should go with what he wants to go with-given the countries regulations.

Sorry to have to quit this thread, but I have something more interesting in a few others.


Take care and Lovu Zdar.


---coltnavy36---

[oso45-70]

Gents

I would have no qualms about using a 45-70 on an african lion Just like i wouldn't hesitate to use the old 45-70 on the big bears of the north,  500 plus grains of lead will put them down to stay. :yeah:   .........Joe......

[Sourdough]

Maybe I missed something, but the original question just said lion.  I took that to mean mountain lion, couger, panther, anyway one living in North America.  A 45-70 would be devastating on one.  

As for using the 45-70 in Alaska.  My 15 year old son took a Grizzly two years ago with his 45-70 Handi.  One Shot, One Kill.  That's his brag.

[GeorgiaDave]

Hello from Georgia,
   I have all the respect in the world for Lions and don't think that they should be hunted in the first place. But since they are, they should be shown enough respect to be dispatched as quickly as possible. I feel that a well placed shot from a 45-70 will take any animal as long as bullet construction and placement are optimum.
   Perhaps big dangerous game should be hunted with a good semi auto .50 BMG. Several 700 gr. bullets should do the trick. Maybe a full auto belt fed Browning would be even better. Just a thought.
 Dave

[Redhawk1]

GeorgiaDave, don't come here with your bleeding heart and pick and choose which animals should and should not be hunted. And then came and make your statements like "Perhaps big dangerous game should be hunted with a good semi auto .50 BMG. Several 700 gr. bullets should do the trick. Maybe a full auto belt fed Browning would be even better" .

If you can't contribute to this thread in a intelligent  way don't bother posting. The only thing worse than a anti-hunter is someone that clams to be a hunter and points out faults in other hunters.

[oso45-70]

If you can't contribute to this thread in a intelligent  way don't bother posting. The only thing worse than a anti-hunter is someone that clams to be a hunter and points out faults in other hunters.[/quote]

Redhawk,

I think the man should be able to post any thing he wishes. Do we censure the posts here on GBO The man has a right to his opinion just as you do. I may not agree with him, but he has the right to his opinion. I may be out on a limb on this one but thats the way i feel.

And i think the 45-70 is very capable of killing a lion .......Joe......

[Redhawk1]

If you can't contribute to this thread in a intelligent  way don't bother posting. The only thing worse than a anti-hunter is someone that clams to be a hunter and points out faults in other hunters.

Redhawk,

I think the man should be able to post any thing he wishes. Do we censure the posts here on GBO The man has a right to his opinion just as you do. I may not agree with him, but he has the right to his opinion. I may be out on a limb on this one but thats the way i feel.

And i think the 45-70 is very capable of killing a lion .......Joe......

oso45-70, sure he is intitled to his opinion, but not to bait others into arguments with his comments.  When someone come's to a hunting and gun forum and then select what should and should not be hunted. And then make a statement about "Perhaps big dangerous game should be hunted with a good semi auto .50 BMG. Several 700 gr. bullets should do the trick. Maybe a full auto belt fed Browning would be even better" .

I stand by my post and if you don't like it, tough.  In my book, a claimed hunter that speaks out about others hunting methods and tries to make themselves look better is no better than the anti-hunters. I stand firm on my beliefs.

[oso45-70]

Redhawk1

I do not see where GeorgiaDave was baiting any one and by the way he don't sound like a anti hunter or a  troll. Go back and read his posts and also read his profile. I think you owe GeorgiaDave an apology, If it was me that said that i would go back and Apologize to the man, But thats the way i was raised, As far as i'am concerned thats the end of this discussion. Hope you have a good day .......Joe........