Author Topic: K-Frames (Read 2976 times)

L-Roy · « **on:** January 06, 2003, 04:46:19 PM »

Hello All,
Any K-Frame Smith lovers out there? I just received a model 10-4 and a Model 15-4 in my most recent dealing and I love them. Thye fit my hands and carry well! I just need to find the appropriate "rubber" grips for them (ugh, I hate rubber, but it does work better for carry, no slipping)!

Mikey · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2003, 04:40:01 AM »

L-Roy: You hit the nail on the head that time. The S&W is my favorite double action revolver. I have J-frames, K-frames and I have N-frames.

The K-frame fits my hand best and feels absolutely 'right' in my hand. The J-frames needed a new set of grips (Packmeyer??) to fit my hand right and make great carry pieces. The N-frames are an all time favorite - the grip is just right with the small grip panels, the frame is the right size for the heavier magnums and the darn things just feel right.

I have had a couple of Pythons, and let them go. Too much distance between grip and trigger for my short little fingers and the Pythons chambers are too short for bullets loaded long. Same with a 1917 Colt. A 1917 Smith was better.

Some of the other medium frame revolvers out there like the Taurus and Rossi have nice medium sized frames and are quite accurate and reliable but there's just somethin' about a Smith and Wesson that makes me feel real comfortable.

My 2 cents worth. Mikey.

bfoster · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2003, 02:02:54 PM »

Mikey,

Don't dismiss all of the Colt New Service line. If you happen to see a Shooting Master with a round butt you might want to give it a try out. I've seen these gems follow the some of the most dedicated N frame fans home...

Bob

bfoster · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2003, 02:12:25 PM »

L-Roy,

I'm particularly fond of the K frames S&W made during the period 1909 through 1955. The target revolvers in particular show an attention to small details that would be hard to come by at any price today.

Bob

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2003, 09:22:37 AM »

BFoster: thanks for the insights. I've got a gun show coming up at the end of this month and I think I'llkeep my eyes peeled for one of those just to see what I have been missing. Thanks again. Mikey.

Ken in SENM · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2003, 09:31:54 AM »

L-Roy,, I am late to this discussion, but I sure don't think you can go wrong with Pachmayr grips. I have been carrying and using K-Frames for more years than I like to count. I started using Pachmayrs when all they offered was the Presentation series without the relief built in so a speed loader could be used with them. Still have some of those and like them OK.

My very favorite overall rubber grip is the Pachmayr Gripper. All of us have different hand sizes so different grips feel differently to each of us, but Pachmayr has several choices now for hand sizes. The Gripper comes in two sizes, the regular and the Professional. Same grip, but the Professional leaves the back strap of the revolver grip exposed, thereby allowing your hand to sit a bit closer to the weapon and the trigger.

The revolvers you traded for are square butts (unless I am mistaken). Pachmayr makes grips for those as well as the newer roundbutted style. To my mind, the Pachmayr is much less "grabby" as far as clothing is concerned, when compared to other rubber grips. They are pretty firm, almost as firm as wood, but they are not slippery like wood. They make a Decelerator grip that is softer, but I don't like it.

The Pachmayrs are not too expensive, and I highly recommend that you try a set to see what you think. I have them on a bunch of K-Frames, as well as Ns and Js. You can take a look at the different styles at www.pachmayr.com/pachmayr/gripfind.htm . I have found Natchez Shooters Supply to be a good source for these at good prices. I am sure there are other sources as well.

Coastey · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2003, 04:42:26 PM »

L-Roy,

K-frame Smiths are my favorite handgun, but I've always changed the factory grips. I started with Pachmeyer grippers, but then went to Hogue wooden grips. If I were to go back to rubber...I'd use the Hogue rubber grips...much better fit than the Pachmeyers give.

HARD-CORE · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2003, 03:57:41 AM »

L-ROY,

GOT 2 K FRAMES, A MODEL 15 AND A MODEL 66 BOTH ARE 4" AND I LOVE THEM BOTH. BUT MY FAVORATE IS MY 4" L FRAME MODEL 686.

HARD-CORE

alpini · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2003, 10:50:38 AM »

L-Roy
K frame here too.
M 10, round butt, 4in. tapered, really like this one. Wish I had another.
Clayton

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2003, 11:45:54 AM »

Clayton, just how bad you want one?

I have one I'd kinda like to part with. If interested send me a PM or e-mail and we'll talk specifics. It is all original with VERY few rounds ever fired in it.

GB

deerhunter · « **Reply #10 on:** January 24, 2003, 06:09:07 AM »

I have a 4" model 13. It is my favorite defense/field handgun. Balance, durability, power, it has it all.

Mikey · « **Reply #11 on:** January 24, 2003, 09:23:49 AM »

L-Roy: Dang me, I forgot to mention a thing called the Tyler T-Grip that I use on all my S&Ws, K frame or N frame. If you've never seen one it is just a grip filler that fits between the grip and the trigger guard and give you a better handful to grip. It has two prongs that slide right under the factory grips. I continue to use one on each of my S&Ws with either factory grips or custom replacements. I love em.

Deerhunter: The Model 13 is an excellent revolver. Basically a heavy barrel Model 10 in 357, or a Model 19 without sights. (6 of one and a half dozen of the other, I think). Our NYS Troopers used to carry them but they did have problems. The major problem was in the use of high speed lightweight bullets that created such a recoil as to put the revolver out of time. Interestingly enough, there was no problem with the standard 158 grain 357 loads but those doggone lightweights just ate those things up. I once traded a 4" Highway Patrolman to a Trooper. He and I were in graduate school together and talked shooting. He complained about his Model 13 and I took him to my range and let him hammer away with my Model 28. It felt so much better to him that he got approval to carry the darn thing instead of the Model 13. There is a real interesting story to go along with that trade, too. I guess this is just an alert to the use of the high speed lightweight stuff in yur Model 13. Hope this helps. Mikey.

deerhunter · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2003, 02:44:34 AM »

Thanks for the tip Mikey. I have fired 125 grain full power Federal hollow points, and the recoil is not much worse than in my L frame smith. I usually carry and use the 129 gr .38 special+p Federal Hydrashoks in it. It is a lot hotter than regular .38s and it groups good in my M13, M586 and my Ruger sp101. Its good on rabbits out to 50 feet too.

A local gunshop sells them in 50 round boxes for $16. I shoot a lot of reloaded .38s for practice, but I like to shoot the Factory enough to be comfortable with it. Plus I dont get the time to hunt much anymore, so when I do go, I prefer to use the factory ammo I use for carrying.

I remember reading 20 or 30 years ago when the M13 and M10 were still the standard police sidarm, that the 110 grain .357 caused gas cutting of the top strap. That was one of the reasons they created the L frame .357's.

I do use a lot of 110 grain USA brand .357, buyt most of it I run thru the SP101 with 2.25 inch barrel. I think it would make a decent self defense round, and the recoil in the 2.25" sp101 is actually not bad.

The range I did most of my shooting on when I first started shooting a lot when I was young had 4 backstops. 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. They set up metal plates that would gong when you shot them on each, so my friends and I learned to shoot pistols from 50 to 200 yards. The 4" K frame was reliable out to 100 yards. I could hit the gong 5 out of 6 shots at 100 all day long. My 6" Lframe was more consistant at 200. But it was not as easy to carry.

For any use you need a sidearm, the 4" Kframe would serve well. Plus the S&W revolvers are the smoothest out of the box of any I have used. And I have a Ruger sp101, and Colt Python(when they were made well). My M586 is a better revolver than the Python.

Mikey · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:21:46 AM »

Deerhunter: Thanks for reminding me of the gas cutting problem, although I'm not exactly certain that is why S&W went to the L-frame.

The gas cutting not only etched the topstrap (and etching was about all it did. The cuts were never serious or created any frame integrity concerns - they just looked bad), it also ate away at the end part of the cylinder and created 'endshake' and timing problems. I know this was caused using 357s in a 357 revolver but I'm not so certain the same thing happened with Plus P 38s in the same cylinders - I think the shorter casing made that much difference in the directional flow of the buring gases from the longer cylinder. Anywho, L-Frames and N-frames didn't have that problem, only the K-Framed Model 13 and 19.

Ooops, now hold on a bit Bro - I've donged the gong at 200 with a K-Frame before. In fact, it was a 2" Model 19 and I did it with some Skeeter Skelton loads in 38 cases. I also did it with a 4" Model 27 with 200 grain loads. The 200s knock over the ram at 200, the 158s only make it sing. We used to use the 200s in a 4" Model 19 for Silhouette Shoots - it was a blast. I need to get back into that and get more practice. This be Mikey.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2003, 02:38:43 PM »

Mikey:

Smith went to the L-frame because the K-frame was getting eaten up by the newer hotter .357, 125 grain loads. I loved the K-frames that I used, the M19/66/65/13. For most agencies the L-frame was a transitional revolver between the Model 19 and the Wonder Nines. The M13 was first developed and issued to the FBI. They used a 38 Special 158 grain +P round. Other LE agencies started using what was know as the Treasury round. It was a 110 grain +P+ round. Other hotter rounds came along. Over pentration with 158 grain .357 rounds were a concern. An officer I know shot a suspect in gunfight. The bullet hit the suspect in the hip, into a wood cabinet, penetrated a window, and stopped in the building across the street. The 38 Special +P and +p+ rounds do not even come close to a .357 round.

I preferred the M65/M13 under a sports coat because the fix sights did not eat up the lining.

Smith and Wesson's biggest problem was quality control. I bought a K-frame and and S&W autoloader for duty during the 80's. Fresh out of the box they needed to be brought up to spec's by a gunsmith before they could be certified for duty. It is disconcerning when you can push off the hammer of a new k-frame with your thumb. I can recall the sheriff's department going through all it's new Smith's on arrival to insure they were safe.

There is nothing like doing a combat shoot with a K-frame and speedloaders. They lived a hard life in a Law Enforcement career. I am sure that many had more rounds fire through them on the Range in one day then most owners put through them in a year. When given a choice mine will be a K-Frame M13/65 3 inch or a Sig 220, .45 auto, or a 1911, 45 auto. I no longer trust an out of the box Smith.

Oops! strayed a little.

John Traveler · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:47:46 AM »

I have to agree with you, Siskiyou!

The S&W K frame revolvers are the classic in six-guns. I've owned more than a dozen in my shooting career and like them all.

Like you, I found the spotty quality control a hard thing to swallow back in the 1980's and early 1990's. However, they did make some good ones right out of the box. I have an M19 that I fired a documented 50,000 rounds/year for the couple years that I shot in PPC matches, and it performed perfectly. That was almost all 148g wadcutter loads.

My K-frame .357 magnums did not seem to hold up well to constant use of full-charge loads. Excessive cylinder end-shake and timing problems developed after a couple thousand rounds of the hot stuff.

Do you remember the several revolver recall notices that S&W had back in the early 1980's? Several models of K-frames locked up after extensive sustained fire. The crane (cylinder support surface) gas ring design was modified several times to correct it.

Maybe it was a marketing ploy, but the L-frame gained considerable popularity from its full-length barrel underlug that gave it an exotic "Colt Python" look.

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2003, 05:37:21 AM »

Siskiyou and John Traveller: I have to agree with the both of you about your feelings and preferences for the S&W K-frame. It is an all-time sweetheart.

I had come to understand that the gas cutting that was prevalent in the high speed lightweight 357 magnum loads was the culprit in causing end-shake and erosion at the end of the cylinder. The K-frame 357s I knew, the Model 13s and 19s, had no problem when using the standard 158 grain load becuase of the different powders used.

Both you fellas are right about the amount of use Police revolvers have seen but, they are always well maintained. You won't have any problems with 38s in those magnums, even if they are the hot ones, or with the many thousands of wadcutters you fired in practice. But, those danged high speed, light weight laods are the real culprit.

Interesting phenomenum - never had the same problem with the N-frames, which is why I really like them although all I shoot in mine are heavy bullet loads. One of you fellas has to correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the L-frame a combination of both the K and N frames, or is it a different revolver altogether?????? I thought it was a K frame grip with an N frame and a full underlug - is I wrong??? Mikey.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2003, 05:11:06 PM »

John and Mikey:

Those S&W recalls must have been secret, I never heard or I have forgotten. But there was a lot of disatisfaction with their quality control, which opened the door for the other guys autoloaders. The outfit was doing a good job of inspecting duty weapons. Private weapons had to have a letter from a LE gunsmith before they could be carried.

Back on the K-frame. I worked with a guy who was married to a school teacher who wanted to learn how to handle a handgun, and buy one. Now he was was a smart guy and decided that one should never teach his wife to handle a gun.(It rates second to teaching the wife to drive.) He asked me too. On the first appointed day they showed up with another lady shooter. She had a lot of experience shooting clay birds but none with a handgun.

Now my friend was a handgun shooter but it was with a .45 auto and a .44 AutoMag.

We started out with some safety lessons, and then turned to my LE tuned M13 and 148 grain wadcutters. Nothing like shooting ballons on silhouettes. The ladies were very happy with it, but they wanted something a little smaller. I pulled a little J-frame S&W Chief out. They thought that was about right until they fired it. The trigger pull could not match the trigger pull on the M13. The nature of the beast. I recommended M65's which is the stainless version of the M13. I thought they could of bought me a M65 while they were at it. Right!

Siskiyou

S.B. · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2003, 04:37:23 PM »

L-roy, I'm with you. Love those Smiths.Mickey, I've been discussing flame cuts on the top strap of my 629 Classic with the factory, they told me "most if not all revolvers develope this but it's not a safety issue at this point.
Siskyou, I am personally aquinted with several of the factory trained armorers in my area. They all have said that hammer push off will happen with any double action revolver, with the very small amount of contact that the hammer has with the sear connection. If you have had some repaired that have this problem(refitted so that this will not happen), what is the single action trigger pull like afterwards?
As far as grips go, I started out with factory targets and soon went to Herret Jordons to cure the recoil problem. Funny, if I'm shooting an N frame, I don't notice it at all. Must fit my hand better. J-frame must have Pachmyers for my tastes.

Siskiyou · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2003, 05:44:59 PM »

S.B.

I had the push off corrected by a L.E. certified gunsmith, and a duty tune-up at the sametime. Department required a letter on all personel weapons from a certified L.E. gunsmith. I never had a push-off problem with my Colt or with S&W issued 19/66. A fellow officer had a problem on a Model 66 but it was corrected before it went on the street. Clearly I want all systems working correctly. It is my believe that no matter how good a shooting goes down there will be one or more lawsuits. The Bottom Feeders are always looking for the buck. Having a certified duty weapon just removes an issue. The bottom line was that a weapon with push off was not exceptable for duty carry. It was considered a safety and liability issue. I did not want to carry a weapon that was not certified safe. I felt rather bad with my new M13 with push-off when all the other K-frames on the range did not have a push-off problem.

The single action trigger pull is great. Understand that L.E. firearms training is done in double action. I use to practice double action shooting on digger squirrles. If I recall correctly L.A.P.D. in the days of the M15 S&W had them modified to double action only.

I would have preferred different grips on the J-frame. It belonged to the company so I left it as issued. It was the last resort before a sharp stick in the eye.

Siskiyou

jerry6stl · « **Reply #20 on:** February 26, 2003, 09:52:23 AM »

I prefer the checkered wood "Detective Model" grips on my K-frames.

jerry6stl · « **Reply #21 on:** February 26, 2003, 09:56:18 AM »

I prefer the checkered wood "Detective Model" grips on my K-frames.

Old Griz · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2003, 05:40:21 PM »

The Hogue rubber grips are my favorite for my K frames. I have a 2.5" M19 and a 3" M66. They are great little shooters. I was worried at first about qualifying with the 2.5" barrel, but to my shock and delight I have never scored under 100 with the short tube. I also have a Colt Grizzly (limited run--King Cobra frame with a 6" ported Python barrel) that I thought was the smoothest thing I had ever shot, next to a real python, but I really lucked out with my M66. It just came out of the box smoother than the Colt. I put night sights on that one.

Every now and then I get the urge to get a small 1911, something like the Paraordinance Carry or something like that. Then I think, why do I need one with such great little K frames. The .45 is fine, but the .357 is better.

I've always wanted a 3" M13. Guess I can just keep on wishin'. I know I could get a 3" M65 anytime I wanted one, but I sure like a good blued gun. The first flash I want the bad guy to see is the muzzle flash--not a reflection on stainless steel.

What can anyone tell me about a 2.5" 686? Pros & cons.

Buck · « **Reply #23 on:** May 05, 2003, 06:59:29 PM »

I have a S&W Model 66 4", and I really like it ( I try not to attach the word "love" to material objects). What's also impressive is that everyone who has seen always comments on how nice of a gun it is. I am a little concerned about the K-frames reported tendency to come loose after heavy use of hot loads, but I have a few connections who can fix it as needed for a fairly cheap price. Another good thing about K-frames is that they are the handgun equivalent of art, with great proportions. Great proportion, easy to use, easy to maintain; it's a great gun.

As for the grip discussion that has ensued, I recently changed grips from wooden grips to Hogue rubber grips. They're nice, but feel a little small in my hand.

Questor · « **Reply #24 on:** May 08, 2003, 03:17:35 AM »

I like the Hogue grips that come with the current S&Ws. They're not as pretty as nice wood, but they perform much better.

Old Griz · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2003, 04:14:33 PM »

:shock: Uh . . . oh. Found the gun of my dreams yesterday. It's the new S&W 329. Scandium frame, stainless steel barrel, titanium cylinder, and the best wood grips S&W has ever put on a stock gun. Wow. Only 26.5 ounces of 44 mag power. Feels like a toy gun in your hand. It's THE PERFECT gun for backpacking, fishing in bear territory, or just plain carry gun. Love my K frames, but now . . .

Gonna have to save up for a while though. It's $680 here. Looks like I'm gonna do without that muzzleloader for yet another season.

pjh421 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 15, 2003, 05:37:12 PM »

I used to have a 6" blue Python made in '76. It was about 98+% when I got it with no flame cutting. By the time I sold it, it was flame cut but that didn't hurt anything. Its purely cosmetic. The cut only goes so far and then stops. Forcing cone erosion and cracking is what you need to watch, and of course, timing.

Paul

Old Griz · « **Reply #27 on:** May 18, 2003, 07:38:10 AM »

cknight98

I think you're right. Talked to another dealer who was part of a group their S&W rep got together to let them shoot new S&W products. He said the 329 was much more punishing than the .500. He said the .500 has more of a backward push like the .475. The 329 is like holding on to a stick of dynamite--it just blows up all over the place. Oh, well. Guess I'll stick with what I've got.