BLACK POWDER GRADES:

[KING]

  Good Evening gentleman of da black powder !!!!!!   I have been into the books that I have on Black Powder,and I cannot fer the life of me find anything about the Grades of powder other than the 1-4F,and Cartridge,and the 1 1/2 Swiss.  I also know that the Swiss comes in a 5F also.  I am looking at some Loads for a .450x3"..  They are talking about loading 120grns of CURTIS & HARVEY No.6 powder.  I have also come across other loadings for various rifles that were using differant grades from 5 to a 7 grade.  Being the curious critter that I am.  I wonder how those grades would compair to what we have available at the present time.   Meaning would they be smaller or larger that the present grade of 4F .  Now, I know that when the .45-70 was being used,there were numerouse grades of powder available,that are not around today.  Im trying to come up with a reason,not to attempt a 60 grn load of 4F with a veg. fiber wad behind a 530 grn Postell projo.  I curious what it would do in the accuracy department and in the pressure department.,with pressure being the main worry.  I have taken apart an old round from the 1880s (dont shoot me guys) and the powder was a very fine grain.  It appears to me smaller that our 4F from a comparison under a microscope.   Any input would be greatly appreciated guys.  Thanks in advance.   I cant be the only BPCR shooter that has come up with this hair brained idea.  I would think that the 4F would be a little cleaner burning,(i.e. less foulling) that 3F or 2F,or fer that matter the CARTRIDGE  grade of powder.    King

[River runner]

King, on that 1880's 45-70 cartridge you dissassembled, was the powder compressed? I believe most of those cartridges were for the military and therefore mil-spec, either 405 grn or 500 grain with a compressed charge, allmost like a solid pellet. Now I might be wrong, been known to do that now and then; but I don't believe there were that many different granulations of powder, however there were a lot of different companies producing powder and they used different numbers to identify the same granulation. Pretty much like today with the different brands and designations of smokeless, there isn't a hill of beans difference in say WW296 and H110, slightly different pressures maybe. I don't believe they started to make the granulation uniform until the late 1800's or early 1900's, and still today some BP's burn hotter than others and cleaner than others of the same designation. I know I've pulled some bullets out of my 45-70 that I charged with 70 grains of 2F and a compressed charge of .4" (mil-spec)and the granulation looked much smaller than what I dropped, I really had to dig to get out also.  Be interesting to find out for sure. We do know the finer the granulation the higher the pressure for equal amounts of powder. RR

[rdnck]

King-- You don't want to load your 450-3 inch with 4f.  You actually don't want to load any cartridge with 4f if you are looking for a reduction in fouling.  Reduced fouling results from having a balanced load.  Too much or too little powder will leave more fouling in the bore than a load that has the right combination of bullet weight, burn rate, and pressure.  

4f powder is a much faster powder, and burns hotter than the larger granulations.  This increased heat cooks the resulting fouling and develops a much HARDER fouling deposit, making it more difficult for the lube and pressure to keep the fouling soft enough to be manageable for accurate shooting. Shoot straight, rdnck

Chairman
Caddo Lake Chapter
FES

[KING]

:-) RR and RDNCK.  Yup, that powder was just about one solid pellet after I got the projo otta it.  I was trying to not break it up toobadly so I could get a good look at it.  The " NOT BREAK IT UP TO BADLY" is kinda a misnomer fer sure.   I guess what I was interested in attempting to make a load that is less foulling.  I have not used 5 grns of 4F as a kicker in my other loads,but most whom I have talked with have stated that in thier opinion it made the round shoot cleaner.  Si,taking that to the extreme,and the question of the differant grades of powder kinda goes together.  No,if I could make a round that was less foulling I would be...happier...   I am relatively happy with several of the  combinations that I have put together at this point for accuracy.,and as always I am open to improovement.  I almost fergot,that projo on the round I pulled was a 500 grainer if that helps any.   King

[KING]

  Actually,gentleman,if i come up with a round that I am really happy with,you guys is gunna have to give me some excuses fer not hitting the target.   :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D  :? King

[fredj]

King-Back in the day Fg was used almost exclusively for most of the LR target work when a Sporting grade BP was used. Thhe Curtis and Harvey
Black Diamond was one of the better BP's back in the day and todays Swiss is virtually identical, the thing that separates the better BP's from the mediocre then and now is the charcoal, Buckthorn Alder was and is
the best  wood source for Sporting BP because of it's ideal creosote content, C&H and Swiss had this in common as well as the purity of the KN03 and the care and expertise used in the manufacture. Back in the day some of the other high quality BP used common Alder or White Willow
as a source for charcoal. In a rifle grade BP the difference between Alder
and Buckthorn Alder is negligeable.
   I wouldn't bother with a FFFFg or FFFg kicker charge, I don't think it efficacy has ever been established. One of the most valuable aspects of drop tube loading is that the larger grains are deposited in the bottom of the case with the smaller lighter grains and dust being on the top of the powder column in the case promoting faster more consistent igniition and cleaner burning.
   The Swiss which is a true sporting grade BP like the famed C&H doesn't like compression and a mild cap is preferable the lower quality BP's like
compression and hot caps.
   The Brit. and Irish 1000 yd Creedmore competitiors used C&H in thier muzzle loading Rigby's, some used a higher seating pressure to slow down the burning rate of the  sporting grade BP as it's a mite too fast.
   I've found slower BP's like rifle or even musket grades yielding better SD's in my Whitworth ML with heavier LR charges. Regards fredj

[KING]

  BW...Yup,thats why i listen to what you guys are tellling me.  I hope,  repeat  I hope that i can get my molds back and get some more projos casst.  Have been using WW and they seem to shoot ..good.  Notice I say not extremily outstanding and such.  The postells seem to work the "best" but the Lyman RN,that is another matter.  If I caan get some good slugs cast,I plan on doing some reloading and seeing what I can come up with.  Kinda leaning toward getting some Swiss powder to kinda help things also.  Appreciate all ya come up with,cause I sure need it.  King

[KING]

  Hi BW.    Yup,I got that mag also and read the article on it with a lot of interest,seems like I heard that someplace before also.  I cleaned up about 250 lbs of lead last week.  It was all spent slugs from our department range.  That stuff is real dirty to clean put I hooked up a turkey hot oil type burner and a huge aluminium pot to melt it down with.  I got a lot of goot lead otta it and have about 2300 pounds to go ta clean .  At any rate,I tested this stuff that I just got done with and on my Saeco tester it was showing a hardness of 3 to 4 which is considered pure lead.  I cant believe that it is" pure ",but it should cast well after it is cleaned one more time.  Kinda interested  in what you were telling me about the slug hardness.  I have been using basically a hardness of WW,so I wanna see what this does..Thanks fer thinking about the article.cant wait to attempt it.  I will fer sure let ya know   King