Casting vs Jacketed

[GrampaMike]

What are the pros and cons for "casting" (hope that is the right word) bullets.  I can see where it would be fun.  But how about accuracy, can you really make bullets alike enough to compete with the jacketed versions?  Do you push the cast bullets to the same velocity as it jacketed brothers?  What is a good manual for casting?

Mike

[Castaway]

Good question.  Cast bulllets can be as accurate as jacketed bullets at 1/3 the cost or less, especially if casting our own.  Depending on the caliber, yes, you can push cast bulets at the same velocity.  Generallly,  you can push pistol bullets to the same speed, and rifle bullets up to 30-30.  Above 2,200 f/s is where jacketed bullets have an advantage.  There are exceptions of course.  Casting your own may seem to be a mixture of bat wings and eye of newt, but actually is quiet simple.

[jhalcott]

you might find it quite addictive! I shot (5) 168 gr cast bullets into ONE ragged hole thru my 7tc/u carbine today.Distance was only 50 yards. I've shot 45/70 rifles in competition and won against the jacketed stuff the other guys were using.If you like to tinker and enjoy the feeling that "I made that" gives you ,you will enjoy casting your own bullets. High speed is NOT what I strive for from a cast bullet! I have messed around with some exotic alloys and lubes to get 2800 fps from an '06! They slugs were hard as nails and zipped thru deer and ground hogs like fmj's. Start with a large bore hand gun and read a few books on casting,Veral Smith's is a great one to start with. Remember the safety warnings about lead and soon you will be having more fun than a human should be allowed.   jh

[BamBams]

Gosh I love casting!  And it IS fun!  As far as velocity and accuracy go:

Yes, cast bullets are just as accurate, if not MORE so once you get good at it. If you're trying to be super accurate, you've gotta weigh the bullets to make sure they all weigh very close to the same.

With high velocity, you simply use gas checks so you don't have to worry about any leading.  You can also make your own gas checks.

I use wheel weights for my lead alloy which I get for a song and a dance from tire shops.  I might go out and buy some empty five gallon buckes and just give a couple to the store, or in one case, I can have all the wheel weights I want for 12 donuts.  I'll go out on a Saturday morning, and start hitting all the tire shops. I only have to do this about once a year since 300 lbs (about 4, five gallon buckets) will make 10 thousand .45ACP bullets for me.

I make my own bullet lube from 50/50 alox and bees wax.  The alox is less than $2 a bottle, and the beeswax sells for about $2 a pound.  Order a bunch of both, and you'll be set to go on lube for many many years.

If I'm doing pistol bullets, I try to use a 4 cavity mold.  This way I can cast 1000 rounds in a few hours.

I bought the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual a couple years ago, and it helped me get started, but the process is soooooo simple, I seldom have to refer to it anymore.

Here's a good tip you won't read in any book:

Don't hurt your back lifting those heavy buckets of wheel weights!  All it takes is one good lift and twist to put you on your back for a week!

[sgtt]

Casting your own may seem to be a mixture of bat wings and eye of newt, but actually is quiet simple.[/quote]

The bat wings are used for higher velocity stuff.................eye of newt for almost any pistol load!

[GrampaMike]

Thanks Guys...

I am sold, will try it.  First I will get a book/manual.  Need to find out what I need.

Mike

[Questor]

It depends on how many bullets you'll need. If you shoot a few hundred bullets a month and you don't have a lot of time for casting, you probably won't like it. I gave it up because it just wasn't worth the effort or the risk -- or the expense. You're dealing with a toxic substance and that many long-time casters seem to have a lot of health problems.  You will not be able to cast bullets as consistent in weight as swaged bullets or jacketed bullets.  That doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from winning shooting matches with cast bullets, though.

As to expense, I can buy 10,000 excellent swaged bullets for about $350. Wheelweights are becoming more scarce.  Tin and electricity is getting more expensive. I didn't save much by casting my own.

If you're going to shoot in volume, you'll need the right equipment: a good melter like the RCBS unit, and a pair of 4-cavity moulds for each bullet you're casting. You'll also need a separate pot for melting any scrap lead you're working with-- don't use your casting melter to clean scrap lead, you'll wreck the melter.

[Questor]

By the way, it takes about as long to size bullets as it does to cast them. Almost nobody will tell you that. You also need to sort bullets for quality control. Expect the whole job to take about three times as long as the casting time alone.

[Thomas Krupinski]

It depends on how many bullets you'll need. If you shoot a few hundred bullets a month and you don't have a lot of time for casting, you probably won't like it. I gave it up because it just wasn't worth the effort or the risk -- or the expense. You're dealing with a toxic substance and that many long-time casters seem to have a lot of health problems.  You will not be able to cast bullets as consistent in weight as swaged bullets or jacketed bullets.  That doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from winning shooting matches with cast bullets, though.

As to expense, I can buy 10,000 excellent swaged bullets for about $350. Wheelweights are becoming more scarce.  Tin and electricity is getting more expensive. I didn't save much by casting my own.

If you're going to shoot in volume, you'll need the right equipment: a good melter like the RCBS unit, and a pair of 4-cavity moulds for each bullet you're casting. You'll also need a separate pot for melting any scrap lead you're working with-- don't use your casting melter to clean scrap lead, you'll wreck the melter.

Yea, and you can also buy factory cartridges and you can hire someone else to shoot your targets for you to save even more time.  Store bought ammo or purchased cast bullets, sort of go together with buying meat at the grocery store.  Just sort of takes the fun (aka work) out of it.

[Questor]

That's the heart of the dilemma, Tom. We each have to decide what our hobbies are. Mine is shooting. Reloading is a necessary evil. Casting is a waste of time and money. (to me).  Been there. Done that. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

I shoot with other guys who enjoy the casting, loading, cartridge making, etc as much or more than the shooting itself.

To each his own.

[Thomas Krupinski]

That's exactly it.  The enjoyment of tinkering and making and using the stuff you make.  I have no problem with and can relate to folks with time constraints and other reasons for only doing part of the experience.  I was in that boat for a long time, but now I can enjoy.  Is it worth it, I think it is but it is equally understandable that other things are more important depending upon your situation.

[Questor]

Since GrampaMike made up his mind already, I think we owe it to him to give him our best advice, based on experience. Here's my top 10....

1) The Lyman Cast Bullet manual is a must-read. It's readily available.

2) Get a good melter, like the RCBS model. Don't get the Lee (like I did), it's frustrating and not durable for heavy use.

3) Get a melter with a shelf on it that you can rest the moulds on while casting. If you've got shoulder problems, you'll really appreciate this feature. On the other hand, if you DON'T have shoulder problems, you'll appreciate this feature too.  It's surprising how heavy those moulds seem after you've cast a few hundred bullets in one sitting.

4) You need good ventilation in an area with a roof on it. A garage is just about perfect. Set up a fan behind you so that you never smell any fumes. Lead isn't the only toxic thing in that alloy, and you need your health much more than you need bullets.  You need the roof in case there's any chance of precipitation. A single drop of water makes a huge explosion that can hurt you badly.

5) Beware of Marvelux flux if you live in a humid environment. It can get damp and cause a lead explosion when you drop it into the molten lead. Beeswax is best because it's anhydrous and a pound of it will last a long time.

6) Use two moulds per session. You'll get a lot more bullets in the same amount of time and your moulds won't get too hot. Process one mould, then the next.

7) Leather shoes, heavy pants, heavy long-sleeved shirt, heavy leather gloves, a shop apron, and shop goggles are not optional.

8) Use one pot for cleaning your scrap lead and one for casting. The one you use for cleaning and fluxing is going to get very dirty.

9) It takes a long time to size and lube bullets. Consider getting a Star tool for productivity's sake.

10) Bullet casting from wheelweights is a four step process, each step is time consuming: 1) Cleaning lead and pouring ingots--ready for casting-- from your scrap lead. 2) Casting bullets. 3) Sizing and lubing bullets. 4) Sorting for quality control (i.e., discarding bullets with casting defects and voids.).  It takes either a good machine or a good man to make good cast bullets.

[GrampaMike]

This is a great site.  Everyone is giving advice as their experience dictates.  Can't ask for anymore than that.

Looks like I will now wait until my woodworking shop is completed, waiting for the concrete guys to pour footings today.  I was just going to set up an area next to loading bench in basement, but I can see I need to put in more thought/planning.  I can get a manual and read it in the meantime.

Thanks Questor for all the time and knowledge that you spent typing.  Everyones comments are greatly appreciated by me and I am sure others that just read this forum.

Mike

[Sixgun]

I like to read Questor's posts and I get alot of good advice from him.  I have a little different slant on some of the points though and you can take them for what its worth.

I agree on the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual.  You nee that or something like to learn some of the finer points.

I have a good melter and I am on a tight budget.  I use a Lee bottom pour melter.  I cast about 10,000 bullets a year.  I have been doing this for 20 years.  I have only wore out one Lee pot and they sent me a new on for free, about 7 years ago.

I also use Lee molds, whenever possible.  I have Lyman and Rcbs molds also but the Lee molds have always given me excellent results.  I have had some problems with Lee molds but they have always made it right with no cost to me.  I have cast some really great bullets with my Lyman and RCBS molds but the best competition bullets I have ever used came from a Lee mold.  That mold is out of production now and so I am really careful with it.  I take good care of it and follow the directions that Lee provided for upkeep and it is still going strong now, 16 years after I bought it.  For lube I use Lee liquid Alox and I use a Lee sizer.  I have never had any leading with the Lee lube and I usually only use the sizer to apply gas checks.  I get better results with unsized bullets.  An old guy that got me interested in casting said that the barrel would get it to the correct size by the time it gets to the end.

For me casting is a winter project.  I have plenty of time on the long winter nights to do all of those chores like melting scrap lead, casting bullets and lubing and sizing and putting on gas checks.  I do it in my basement.  I have a special room that I built in the unfinished part of the basement which has ventilation to the outside.  It works good for casting but I still melt scrap lead outside.  There is just too much smoke sometimes to want to do it indoors.  I think my ventilation system would handle it but I don't want to test it.

I use two molds when I cast also.  It goes much faster.  If I don't have two molds of the same type, I cast two different bullets that I may need.  Most of the time I cast for my 357mag, NRA Cowboy Silhouette rifle and my 22 hornet wihch I use for NRA Hunter pistol Silhouette.  

I cast both very hot.  I want frosted bullets.  They fill out the mold better, hold the lube better, and are more consistent in weight.  This is for competitive shooting but I think I would use these bullets for hunting also.  They are sure accurate.

I used to be a plumber, back in the days when we soddered copper water pipes together.  I know what its like to be 20' up on a ladder with one leg in the air, reaching up and have a hot drop go down my tea shirt.  It will only burn a little while and you will still be alive, if you control the urge to do a dance, which will only make you fall and really get bunged up, and you will still have the burn.  I am careful around molten lead.  It can ruin an eye but mostly it will just burn.  I guess I have the same attitude that electricitions have about working with live wires.  Be careful and take all the precautions you want but most of the time it only hurts for a little while.

I'm not trying to step on anyones toes with this post.  You guys do it your way and I do it my way.  That is what is so neat about this stuff.  Shooters, Hunters, Reloaders, etc are mostly individualists.  Read all of the advice and then figure out your own solution to the problem.


Sixgun

[Thomas Krupinski]

My experiences and equipment are more along the line of Sixgun than Questor.  

Although I have a couple of RCBS moulds, the vast majority are Lee and for pistol bullets I really like their six cavity moulds (have a few of thier custom runs).  I also have a bunch of old Thompson Center aluminum moulds that look like the Lee single cavity except that they take the Lee six cavity mould handles.  None of my Lee moulds has worn out yet.  Just have to be careful with aluminum that you don't damage them through accident or carelessness.

I am running two of the Lee bottom pouring pots.  Just replaced one of the Prod Pot 4's (my son is using it now) with one of the 20's.  Haven't had any problems with them either.  I use one of soft lead for muzzleloaders and the other for centerfire cartridges.

What I use to melt down old wheel weights is an old 4 quart sauce pan sitting on the side gas burner on an old grill.  Drill a hole on the top of either side and hook in a heavy wire bail and you have a pot that you can pour easily into your ingot moulds with the handle while lifting on the bail.

It's really pretty safe after you take the proper precautions.  I cast outside under the patio and have been know to do it wearing shorts and sandels.  Makes you a whole lot more carefull.

Hope this is of some help.

[GrampaMike]

I just started another 3-ring binder with the printed posts from this thread.  Labeled this binder "CASTING BULLETS".  I cannot remember everything, so I need to do this way.  Too much good information to lose.  Like all the PROs and CONs.

"Shooters, Hunters, Reloaders, etc are mostly individualists. Read all of the advice and then figure out your own solution to the problem."

The kind of people that make this country, not just USE it.

Mike

[Questor]

GrampaMike:

I wish I had a sense of the time involved in the entire process before I got started. I wouldn't have started. It's not a bad hobby, but if you don't want another hobby, then it's just unpleasant work.  

If I were shooting a game that didn't involve a rapid fire component, then I'd probably still be casting. But when you need 500 or more bullets per month, it gets to be too much work for me.  Especially since I can get 500 high quality swaged bullets for about $16.

On the other hand, I did cast some bullets for 44 magnum use in silhouette shooting. Those were excellent bullets. They were pure wheelweight and had just the right hardness for intermediate loads that simply would not lead my barrel.  I shot 1" groups at 100 yards from my contender pistol with these gas-checked beauties. I also made some really nice ones with the 245 grain Keith bullet that was great in a revolver.  I still have a bunch of them, and when I run out, I just may have to fire up the old cauldron and make some more.

[BamBams]

I know you guys have an affection for the RCBS melter, but I've had great success with a much more inexpensive melter.  The Lyman Production IV.  It doesn't have a place to rest the mold under the spout, but hey, I enjoy working out a bit too!  *smiles*

Somebody said wheel weights are getting scarce?  Maybe that's just a geographical thing?  I have had no problem getting 500 pounds worth on any given Saturday just by hitting the tire shops.  Most of the tire shop owners don't want the expense of having the lead hauled away -- at least that's what they tell me.  I'm always bummed when I hear about somebody actually buying wheel weights per pound.  If I had to do that, I'd seriously consider giving up the hobby.

I use one of those propane turkey fryer contraptions to melt down my wheel weights in a cast iron pot.  I can melt down about 80# of wheel weights at a time that way.  I then pour, with a long soup ladle, the clean alloy into those cheap, teflon coated, 12 muffin pans they sell at Walmart.  Making ingots goes alot faster that way, and they fit into the melter just perfectly.  I will only melt down wheel weights OUTDOORS.  Those fumes are totally awful and I don't want to inhale any of it.  Doing it outside ensures that I won't.  I will melt clean alloy and cast indoors though.

Digital calipers and a digital scale are also a godsend for the caster and will really speed things up for ya too.  They are the only tools I use that could be considered spendy or high tech but I figure the savings in time are worth it.

I think mold release (such as that from midway) is a waste of money.  I rarely have a problem with bullets sticking once my cast iron molds are seasoned and get hot enough.   I also couldn't care less about frosted bullets.  I don't try to acheive frosting deliberately however.  Oh yeah, I forgot to mention "Brake Cleaner."  The $2 spray cans of it from Wal-Mart.  Sure comes in handy for cleaning and prepping the cast iron molds.

With a good melting pot, I think a lead thermometer is also a total waste of $$$.  When the lead melts down really good, I start casting.  I'm never worried about getting the temp exactly right.  When my molds get too hot, I just know it from experience.

If I was rich, sure, I'd spend the money for all the bells and whistles I guess, but I just want to point out that it doesn't take a bunch of fancy equipment to cast GREAT bullets.

Yeah, it does take time.  I devote about 12 hours a month to casting to reloading.  Probably about the same amount  of time I spend per month posting here or reading the news on FOX or the NRA.  It all just boils down to whether casting is something you find enjoyable during your spare time.  As much as I shoot (which is an awful lot) my casting equipment has paid for itself in a matter of months and most of it will last longer than I will.  When I go to the range and see these guys with 5 boxes of .45 ACP that cost them $13 a box, I wonder how they can afford to shoot enough to sustain any level of proficiency?

Well that's my brain dump for today folks.  Hope I helped someone out.

[BruceB]

I've been casting intensively for almost forty years, so I guess I'm hooked.

In my view, casting is an expansion of my shooting hobby.  I do NOT see time spent in casting (or handloading) as wasted in any way, nor as an inconvenience.  Being of an experimental frame of mind, I enjoy exploring paths and techniques which are simply not available to a non-caster, and every mould that arrives in my shop is a new world of casting, loading, and shooting experience to be enjoyed.  I reckon there must be around seventy moulds taking up shop space here by now, with more arriving every month or two.

Money is certainly not unlimited, and if I spend $15 on a box of jacketed bullets, then 100 rounds later all I have is an empty box.  If I spend the same $15 on a Lee mould, then I have the capability of making THOUSANDS of bullets, for peanuts.  With my wheelweight-alloy, 100 .44-250 SWCs cost me the grand total of about FORTY CENTS, and not only do I  get the enjoyment of making them myself, but they are BETTER than what I can buy, and can be tailored to my needs in hardness, diameter, lubricant etc.  This is very inexpensive, and very high-quality, shooting.

The dangers of casting, and the "dangers" of lead as a toxic substance, are exaggerated, just as many other substances are being grossly over-feared due to the EPA and misguided enviro-freaks.  I also know many casters with decades of intensive experience, and NONE have indicated high personal lead levels in lab tests, including myself.  Common sense and a careful approach are certainly indicated, but not fear.

Over many years, I have developed methods which allow production of over 400 GOOD bullets per hour from a single 2-cavity mould, and more than 1000 per hour from one four-cavity mould....without even working very hard.  No unusual equipment is needed, just a normal mould and a good bottom-pour pot like my RCBS jobbie.  I mention this to show that it doesn't have to take all that much time to make a sizeable number of bullets.  My annual consumption must be in the order of 10,000 rounds or so, but I've never really tried to keep track.

Cast bullets are not necessarily the best for all purposes, but for almost all of MY uses these days, they are great.  I'd be seriously bereaved if I lost the capability  of casting my own.  I've even been known to go to the range just to "make empties", so's I could stuff the cases again.....with cast bullets, naturally.

[BamBams]

I've even been known to go to the range just to "make empties", so's I could stuff the cases again.....with cast bullets, naturally.

I can definitely relate to that!  Some guy gave me 250 rounds of hardball, and I just can't wait to shoot them up so I can replace them with my Lyman SWCs. *smiles*

[Kragman71]

Helo,
I'm glad that we offered our different opinions,and no one claimed to be the one and onlyTrue Light.
I can offer one more thing for a new bullet caster.
Join the Cast Bullet Association,or,at least,get the book"Cast Bullets For Beginner and Expert",by Joe Brennan.
It's easy to read and understand.
It's not a list of laws to follow.but a list of what works for Him,and why.
Frank

[Tom W.]

Well, as long as opinions are being given.........


I've been casting for about 25 years now, and started out on a very tight budget. I started using a cast Iron frying pan and a modified gravy ladle in the kitchen. I busted a few electric stove eyes like that.
I then went to a Lee 10 lb. pot, that I still have and it still works, altho I did buy the Lee 20 lb. pot, which makes life a bit easier. I worked for a while at a tire shop, and surprisingly there were no wheelweights that were available to the other people that came by and asked for them.  I've found that casting is not cheap, but it is a hobby unto itself. I have found which molds are the best for my applications, and have traded or sold those that I did not need or liked. I'm now down to three RCBS, one Lyman, four Thompson Center and three Lee molds. and there's always the prospect of another showing up at any time.
I've found that while frosted bullets are accurate and look really good as they come from the mold, they have proven a bit too frangible to be shooting at large game.
Contrary to popular belief, #4 nickel babbitt will work as a great source of tin, and will make a bullet super hard. It doesn't give any problems when casting, either, and the trace metals in it are inconsequential.
Cast bullets can be very accurate. I have a load that I made up for my wife, who has degenerative joint and disc disease, that will put 5 shots @ 75 yards that can be covered with a nickel. I have a revolver that has never fired a factory load or jacketed bullet, just cast bullets. All of my centerfire  handguns shoot home-rolled cast. It's a bit time consuming, and sizing and lubing isn't the most fun a person can have, but it's part of the process, and therefore a necessary evil.
My boys are all grown now, and I suppose I could buy cast bullets, but there is that satisfaction of a clean kill or a good shot made with one that you cast and loaded yourself.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I will reiterate what others have said in a different way.  By casting your own, you are swapping money for time.  You make the decision based on what you have more of.

And common sense will apply to this hobby as well.  I'll bet you could guess on your own that, the more you demand from your bullets - the more you must put into them - either time or money.

If you simply want to blast beer cans on the cheap - there are lots of ways to save time while casting.  Likewise you can also buy cheaper bullets.  If you're looking for minute-of-angle groups your casting will slow way down, and likewise you'd put money into more expensive bullets.

Ways to save time casting:

1) Set reasonable accuracy demands.

2) Don't look for the hottest-fastest loads.

3) Don't size if your bullets will chamber as-is.

4) Use Lee tumble lube.

5) Use a gang mold.  Lee makes pistol molds with 6-cavities.  The Cowboy Action Shooters get something on the order of 1,000 bullets made in an hour.

6) Don't sort bullets - learn to cast well to begin with.  You can sort just as a means of checking your casting methods - but don't rely on sorting as a general method.

There are reloaders, and there are shooters who reload.  I'm one of the latter.  You can spot the reloaders because all they seem to do is shoot from the bench.  It becomes evident that shooting is what they do to simply "test" their loads.  When they perfect a load, they move on to another experiment.

I prefer to find a few useable loads, then duplicate, duplicate, duplicate.  I learn a lot from the reloaders.  But only 20% of my shooting is from a bench and that's mostly because I haven't found all the loads I want yet.

I have some peculiar demands on a bullet that are pushing me into more experimentation than I originally foresaw.  I don't mind it, but I am looking forward to getting things settled so I can work on my shooting skills rather than my reloading skills.

[Sixgun]

This weekend I shot some cast bullets from my 22 hornet in a Hunter Pistol Silhouette match for the first time.  I am a solid double a shooter in the Hunter pistol and had to get two more triple A scores to make triple a.  I had always shot jacketed bullets and had a pretty good load but didn't practice very much because of the cost of the loads.

Last fall I told the guys that I shoot with that I was going to develop a cast bullet load for my Hornet so I could use it more for practice.  They were all mildly interested but most of them only shoot jacketed bullets and have a distrust for the cast bullets.

Saturday was cold with a gusting wind out of the west and we were shooting north, so there was a gusting cross wind.  To make it a little more challenging, I had carpo tunnel surger on my right hand on March 23 and then on my left hand on April 20, the Tuesday before the match.

Everyone was doing poor and I don't think anyone even broke a 30 in the first match of the day which was NRA Small Bore Hunter Pistol.  Two guys quit after that match because they said it was too cold and too windy.  It is hard to shoot good in a gusty cross wind when you can't stop shivering.

I started on chickens with the Hunter Pistol and got 6 chickens.  I felt good about that cause I only got 5 in the small bore match.  I went to the pigs and got all 10.  Some of the other competitors were commenting that this would probably be the only 10 in a row shot today.  I got to the turkeys and shot 9.  After that they were coming over and looking at my loads.  one guy even asked me if I would cast bullets for him.  I fell down on the Rams a little but was just too cold to care.  I ended up with a 29 which is not a real good score  but I felt good considering the condictions being the cold gusty wind and both of my hands were sore.  We shot two more Cowboy Rifle Silhouette matches on Saturday and the 29 that I shot was the high score of the day.

I have been casting bullets since I started reloading back in the 60s.  I have always felt that I can cast better bullets than I can buy.  Sometimes it takes a little work but I get a warm fuzzy feeling when I do well with a load that consists of a bullet that I cast and a load that I myself developed.

The load was Remington Brass, CCI Small Rifle Primer, 4.5 gr of W231, and a RCBS 55gr cast bullet with a Hornady gas check.  It goes about 1750fps from my 10inch Thompson Center Contender.  Groups are just under 2 inches at 100 meters.

Sixgun

[GrampaMike]

Of all the PROs and CONs...   the one from "Sixgun"

I get a warm fuzzy feeling when I do well with a load that consists of a bullet that I cast and a load that I myself developed.

is the best PRO so far...   thanks Sixgun

[calvon]

A lot of good advice from several who abviously have been there and done that. One suggestion I would add is to get Veral Smith's book "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets". Smith's LBT brand of bullet molds are, IMHO, the best.