The fastest and most accurate Mil-Surp........

[RB Rooson]

Would you say the:

SMLE or K-31 or other?

(Remember both accuracy and speed of operation.......manual bolt actions only please).

[Jack Crevalle]

The fastest action is the K31. I don't know where the SMLE got it's reputation for speed except for one apocryphal story of the Germans believing they were under fire from automatic weapons because the British were manipulating there SMLEs so fast - that gets repeated over and over.

The Springfield 03A3 is the most accurate issued rifle. Issued meaning barring specialty rifles produced for target shooting. The K31 is a close second.

[1911crazy]

My SMLE has got to be the fastest/smoothest bolt gun I have giving my M95 8X56r straight bolt a close second.                 BigBill

I never knew what everyone was talking about this "303 britt thing" until I got one and seen how the bolt is.

[Castaway]

You're asking two different questions; fastest and most accurate.  In all issued rifles there are some that defy the odds and can be accurate beyond most any shooters ability, but in terms of general issue rifles, the 1903 has them all beat.  As far as fastest, you have to go to an auto loader.  The M1 Garand is a contender, but you can't discount the M 14 which is verbotten for us mere mortals.  The Garand, if assembled from stock, but selected parts can shoot as well as the 1903.  You can tweak them both with bedding and lapping and I'd put my $ on the Springfield.

[Rick Teal]

In WWI the fastest was the SMLE, and the most accurate was the Ross.

In WWII the fastest would likely be one of the autoloaders.  The Ross and Springfield were still in limited use, but I understand your Garand was quite accurate.  However, since the question is limited to bolts (boring though they may be), the same answer would have to apply.

[Jack Crevalle]

1. The original question was about BOLT actions.
2. Which is faster, a Colt 1911 or a Colt Single action Army?

[S.S.]

The most accurate was the Finnish Model 27 & 28's
Mosin Nagants ,World record was set with one.
The fastest action would have to be one of the straight
pulls (all about the same).
The smoothest action is the krag-Jorgensen without a doubt.

[S.S.]

I forgot one,
The American 6mm Lee-Navy Rifle!
That rifle was way ahead of its time in all respects.
I can't speak for accuracy because I have never had the
opportunity to fire one, But It had one of the smoothest
and fastest Bolt actions I have ever handled!!!!
Sort of a toggle action straight pull !!

[Longcruise]

I love my k31's but don't consider them to be fast at all.

For accuracy, I'd put the k31 up against the 03 any day as long as the sights were comparable.

[RB Rooson]

If you had to walk into a Military Gun store, I don't think you're going to find a more accurate rifle than the K-31.......and it simply may have, with an experienced shooter, the fastest bolt action going.

I heard a phrase years ago which I think holds true to this day -

"A K-31 Schmitt-Rubin straight pull is like shooting a Swiss Watch with the kick of a .30-30!!!!"

[S.S.]

Speed of a bolt action would all come down to training
with it. A straight pull bolt would seem to be the fastest
because of only two actions required.
But, That action requires a great deal more force to pull
the spent case from the chamber. (different camming action).
The Short Magazine Lee Enfield has been known for a century as the
fastest firing bolt action in miltary history. I think that legend had more
to do with magazine capacity than speed. The germans thought
they were facing machine gun fire because of how long it
went on, Not how fast it was. The fire was so continual from
several hundred troops with ten round mags. that they thought
it had to be machineguns.
The Russians with their Nagants developed a Technique called
"PALMING" the bolt. They would simply manipulate the bolt with the
palm of their hand and never actually grip the bolt handle.
Using this technique I can fire my nagants  faster than
any of my straight pulls.-- although I have "PUNISHED"
my nose a few times when my hand slipped off the bolt!
I have heard of a technique used with straight pulls that was
supposed to fast also, But I can't do it. Hold the bolt and "Pump"
the gun like a pump shotgun. I simply don't see how that one can be done effectively since it pulls the rifle off your shoulder!  
As with most comparisons, it isn't
the weapon, it is the person behind it that makes the difference.

[Mikey]

may have been a Russian idea for faster handling of the Moison action, but it is still used today as a means to prevent broken fingers and hands when using mil-surp bolt actions and old ammo that can hangfire.  By using the 'palm technique' you keep important and usable parts of your hands, wrists and forearms out of harms way if a hangfire cooks off while you are working the bolt and the bolt comes back atcha.

By using the palm of your hand you can manipulate the action of any bolt or even demi-auto (when necessary) without damaging yourself.  Military bolt actions have a benefit to their design that allows them to be 'slapped' open and closed with the 'palming technique'.  If you watch hollywood stuff, you see every soldier with a bolt rifle take it off his shoulder and use two fingers to re-cock the action, and this is for those who lack knowledge or experience in military bolt actioning.  The use of the 'palm technique' allows a soldier to keep his bolt rifle on or near target while re-cocking.

I palm all my bolts, even my factory sporters.  It is fast and positive and works for me.  Mikey

[Jack Crevalle]

The Swiss method of operating the K31 is to slap open and closed the bolt with the palm of the hand. This is how their military was taught.

Somebody is going to have to explain to me how doing 4 motions is faster than doing 2.

[Longcruise]

As I said before, I've never considered my swiss guns to be fast, but just now I got down a k31 and a savage mod 10 short action bolt gun and compared them for speed.

The swiss is way faster than the savage.  Don't have an Enfield handy and have never fired one so can't comment on it.

Some observations:  I can keep the swiss gun on my shoulder and slap the bolt back with the palm and the base of the little finger on my right hand.  The hand very quickly wraps around to the other side of the bolt and is easily and quickly slapped forward.  The butt of the rifle never leaves the shoulder!  At the rearmost of the bolt pull the cocking ring just barely touches my nose (it's a longish one )  Recovery and return to sight picture is much faster thant with the savage bolt.  

The savage was palmed but the need to push the bolt upward and then back made recovering the sight picture slower than the swiss.  I could keep the short action savage on my shoulder also.  Palming the savage was slower than operating the bolt with the thumb and forefinger mainly because it kept the whole rifle more stable in the hands without the upward and sideward push and twist that happened when palming.

The other thing about palming was that it requires that the right hand and arm be lifted higher than when operating with thumb and forefingers.

I got out an Mosin m38 too and gave it a try.  As with the savage, it was much faster when operated with the thumb and forefingers than when palmed.  My hand goes much faster to the wrist and trigger of the fun after operating with the thumb and forefingers than when palming on both the savage and mosin.

Regarding the Mosin, I saw some actual wwII trench footage of a russian soldier fireing his 91/30 and he was holding it to his right shoulder and coming across with his left hand and operating the bolt that way.  After trying it, I concluded that the guy was either left handed or wounded because it is NOT a good way to operate the mosin.  Mainly because the bolt comes back and hits your right hand or more specifically the thumb on your right hand while you grip the rifle at the wrist.

None of the three rifles required taking the butt from the shoulder to operate and therefore would not need any push pull action on the rifle itself in order to fully operate the bolt.  I have heard of this method of moving the rifle itself out and back as the bolt is operated but it seemed to be a technique for hunting dangerous game and maybe was done out of necessity with magnum actions??

A looser and smoother bolt action than the Savage could be faster when palmed but I've got no Enfields to test and have never fired one.

[RB Rooson]

This series of post-replies is probably the best that I've ever read on a forum topic!  

All of you have done some research and then actually gone and tried to practically apply it - well done by all!!!

....and by the way, Thanks for a great deal of good information.

*Footnote:  I shoot a great deal of Cowboy Action and everything that we do involves speed and accuracy.  One of the best ways to improve speed is to "take away extraneous movement".  I have to agree with Jack Crevalle that "two movements is better than four" and then.....the accuracy of the K-31 takes over.

[S.S.]

I must add something here for a safety note.
I have found that some of the straight pull
rifles can and will fire without the bolt being fully
foreward and locked! The results of one being
fired in this condition would be catsastrophic
to the shooter. (This is one of the reasons
they were not used by many countries)!
Safety before speed folks,
We don't want anyone getting hurt!

[Jack Crevalle]

I must add something here for a safety note.
I have found that some of the straight pull
rifles can and will fire without the bolt being fully
foreward and locked! The results of one being
fired in this condition would be catsastrophic
to the shooter. (This is one of the reasons
they were not used by many countries)!
Safety before speed folks,
We don't want anyone getting hurt!

When and on what rifles have you found this? I have pulled the trigger (unintentionally) with a partially closed bolt on my K31 many times and it does not fire. In fact, it closes the bolt. This is a well known "mistake" that leads many shooters to conclude that they had a bad round. I don't recommend anyone attempt to do this intentionally, however.

The only straight pull rifle I'm aware of that had a problem was the ROSS rifle and that was because it was possible to reassemble the bolt incorrectly.

[S.S.]

The Ross Was one, The M-95 Steyr was another
I am not exactly sure of the model of the other one
(How Embarrassing) :oops: ,
but it was Swiss and had a "Ring" on the back of the bolt.

[Jack Crevalle]

Well, when you find a link let us know. Of all the Swiss rifle websites I've ever been to I don't recall ever reading about this problem.

[RB Rooson]

Sumner, I think the rifle you are talking about with a "circle ring on the bolt" is a Schmitt Rubin straight-pull K-31.  That is a very distinctive feature of said rifle......

[Longcruise]

I think the rifle you are talking about with a "circle ring on the bolt" is a Schmitt Rubin straight-pull K-31. That is a very distinctive feature of said rifle......

Yes, that would probably be the K31.  The 1911 long rifle and the 1911 short rifle have the same distinctive ring.

These rifles have a built it mechanism that will not allow the firing pin to fall if the bolt is not closed completely.  Newbies to reloading for the k31 often encounter the situation where they think the rifle is defective because the firing pin will not strike the primer.  

It always seems to come down to the bolt not being fully closed even though it seems to be fully closed!  The two most frequent causes are bullets not seated deep enough into the case to allow the bolt to close and cases not sufficiently sized to allow the bolt to close.  Both problems are easily solved by adapting reloading procedures to suit the rifle.

I seriously doubt if there has been a case of a Schmidt & Rubin firing with the bolt not fully closed.  Would sure like to hear about any documented incidents though!

[Jack Crevalle]

Sumner, I think the rifle you are talking about with a "circle ring on the bolt" is a Schmitt Rubin straight-pull K-31.  That is a very distinctive feature of said rifle......

The K-31, 1911, 1889, Cadet, and a few variants all have these features.

I think however, that in the absence of anything besides vague rumors and hearsay that it serves no purpose to try to identify a weapon as having a problem that it hasn't been shown to have.

[RB Rooson]

In total agreement with Longcruise and Jack Crevalle as to it being highly doubtful that the K-31 can be fired without the bolt being fully closed.

Just tried it here with two (2) different K-31's (appx. 20 times each) and no chance of it happening that I can see.

This is one of those "yer gonna have'ta show me" before I'm going to believe it!!!!

[Guardian]

The Problem S.Sumner was referring to was caused by
firing pin replacement in the field by the troops. Some of the pins
were Excessively long and would protrude from the bolt face.
This would be a dangerous situation with any firearm but the
straight pulls did get a bad rap for it.
It was not a design flaw in the weapons, it was careless machinists
who did not check the OAL of the pins closely enough. I actually have a K-31 and an M-95 pin that are flawed in the above stated manner.
My M-95 will indent the primer slightly if I DE-COCK it with a round
in the chamber. and it's pin is within specs. Therefore I do not recommend doing this.
And out of fairness, I must state that my SMLE will do it too.

                     NOTING iz PERFIKT

[S.S.]

It Was not a 7.5 mm Rifle, This one was 10-12 mm at least!
I am a bit in the Dark on Swiss Military Straight pulls, but
I think the Italians used the one I am talking about also.
Vetterelli or something like that. I will have to look it up
and see the model. The cartridges We were shooting were Made
by the old DOMINION cartridge co. of Canada I Think.
They Were Fat Based Bottlenecked cartridges with what appeared
to be a lead paperpatched bullet.
Bare with me folks, It WAS A LOoooooNG! time ago!

[Jack Crevalle]

The Vetterli was not a straight pull design nor did it have the cocking ring that the Schmidt Rubins have.

http://www.swissrifles.com/vetterli/

[Mikey]

Hay S. Sumner:::  If you can locate any of the cartridges you used to shoot in your Vetterelli I sure would be interested in finding out where I can find some.  I have a young nephew who has one of those rifles and the cartridge you are referring to sounds like it is the one that would fit his rifle.  The rifle is sound, but he just wants a cartridge or two so he can say he has them.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[S.S.]

Unfortunatly it wasn't mine. It belongs to a collector in Woodstock Ga.
I'm gonna have to call him and see what the model was,
It's been too long ago and I just can't remember

[Bigdog]

Excellent thread!  Lot's of good discussion.  Y'all inspired me to get out the K31 and my best Enfield Smelly, and try them for speed of operation.
Unloaded, the Enfield isn't quite as fast as when ejecting a fired cartridge - then the bolt almost leaps open, and a fast thumb can slap it closed pretty quickly, though it requires some effort as it cocks on closing.
The K31 would probably be quicker to cycle, except that the bolt ring bopped me in the face - that's a long travel bolt!  I had to remember to tilt my head left when cycling it.  Had to pull the mag too, as it stops the bolt if left in when dry-cycling.
All in all, a good exercise in technique!  

[Jack Crevalle]

Unloaded, the Enfield isn't quite as fast as when ejecting a fired cartridge - then the bolt almost leaps open, and a fast thumb can slap it closed pretty quickly, though it requires some effort as it cocks on closing.

Unloaded, hold down the trigger when closing, then it closes effortlessly.