Author Topic: Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP  (Read 4321 times)

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Offline Dusty Miller

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« on: April 11, 2004, 07:42:28 PM »
I'm currently loading 230 gr. Hyda-Shoks in my Colt Commander and when my new Kimber Pro CDP II is delivered I'm considering the same fodder for it.  However, I'm not up on the latest info on self-defense ammo and I'm wondering if there is a superior load out there now.  I know some folks like the 185 gr. bullets for the .45 ACP, is that considered good advice today?
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 01:38:26 AM »
Mikey is gonna tell ya to get some wadcutter. Just make sure your piece will shoot em.
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Offline Mikey

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Thanks
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 07:33:58 AM »
williamlayton, you're right - I would tell him to get or use some semi-wadcutter or wadcutter configuration, but I would also tell him that it's shot placement that counts more than any bullet design.  And Dusty, it's not just the caliber or the bullet you're using, it's where you put it, which means practice, practice, and practice some more.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline Huk

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 09:09:11 AM »
H'lo Dusty,
I've been using Black Talons in my carry gun but it's a toss-up between them and 230gr Hydra-Shoks. The 165gr Hydra-shoks seem to shoot fine in my guns and have a lot of "smack" but I don't know how much penetration they'd have on a heavy coat or some such barrier.
There are a lot of different brands out there that look good.

Good Luck


Huk
If you try to fail, and you succeed, which have you done?


Offline DEPUTY

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2004, 02:51:22 PM »
winchester ranger sxt 230+p or 185, 230 golden saber bonded bullet! these are the top preformers,

Offline Cameron

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2004, 06:05:47 PM »
Federal 230 grain Hydra Shoks Hollow points.Same weight as hardball(practice loads)good feed and reliability,good expansion and penetration.Defensable round in court should you ever need it,as it is a round that is frequently issued by police departments and not some hand load which is harder to defenda,and no over penetration worries that you might get with 230 grain fmj hardball .

Offline Guardian

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2004, 09:46:02 AM »
Aguilla  IQ 117 Grain alloy hollow-points.
I do not think there is any Ammo made by an American
company that can equal it.
This is a Formidable round that will dump all
of it's energy on the target with only a slim chance
of "PASS THROUGH" to innocents.
In a self defense situation, an exit hole is a bad thing,
you want your projectile to transfer all energy to the target.
Exit holes are for blood trails in hunting, not self-defense!

IQ rounds are made in several calibers
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Offline DEPUTY

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2004, 04:54:14 PM »
The iq rounds failed in many test,  and was rated a poor defesive round!  do a search on it

Offline Guardian

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2004, 05:08:32 AM »
I have tested it Personally and found it's performance
superior to anything else I have fired in .45 auto.
(Not in wet newsprint either, These were real Gel tests).
I have tested most ammo in common circulation today.
I do not go by what the books say, I have to see it for
my self. Enough money goes into the right pocket, and
any thing can be printed to say "MINE"S THE BEST".
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Offline DEPUTY

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2004, 11:30:45 AM »
lol yah!  We tested 9 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP IQ loads from Aguila into properly prepared and calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin. Like the Triton Quickshock bullets, the Aguila IQ is a pre-fragmented design, which splits into three pieces plus the bullet base when it stikes tissue. As with all other pre-fragmented ammo, performance of the Aguila loads was dismal……. The photo below shows typical performance of the 9 mm Aguila IQ 65 gr JHP. Velocities averaged 1670 f/s out of the S&W 5906 pistol used for testing. Penetration depths were inadequate, ranging from 5.5 to 9.4 inches, with most of the pieces found under 7.9 inches. As can be seen in the photograph of the gelatin track, and as is typical for most handgun bullets, temporary cavitation was inconsequential. Although the Aguila bullet pieces spread apart in a triangular pattern up to 6.7 inches apart, each piece was too small to crush a significant volume of tissue. MInimal differences were noted between bare gelatin and gelatin covered with 4 layers of denim. Compare the small size of a recovered 9 mm Aguila bullet pieces with the much larger size of a recovered 9 mm Speer Gold Dot 124 gr JHP (vel=1176 f/s, pen=14”, RD=0.58”) or 9 mm Barnes 105 gr copper HP (vel=1426 f/s, pen=12.9”, RD=0.62”).
The Aguila IQ .40 S&W 95 gr load at an average velocity of 1444 f/s and the Aguila IQ .45 ACP 117 gr loading at an average velocity of 1493 f/s were also tested into bare and denim covered ordnance gelatin and had similar poor terminal performance.

In summary, the Aguila IQ loads offer insufficient penetration and inadequate tissue crush volume compared to other bullets of the same caliber; far more effective loads are available!

Offline Jim n Iowa

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45acp
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2004, 02:06:35 PM »
Mikey
I shoot a tricked, mk2 series 70, and would like your input on hard cast for  defense. This is an outdoor, not multi dwelling indoor situations, not to worry about  going through walls etc.. It throat is polished and expect no feed problems.
Jim

Offline Mikey

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Hay Jim in Iowa
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2004, 03:46:13 AM »
The one hardcast bullet I am trying to locate is, I believe, a flat nosed slug cast out for the 45 Schofield at 230 grains weight.  I saw this bullet a couple of times in magazines and I believe it is produced by Oregon Trail Cast Bullets.  When I saw this bullet I thought it would probably be the best hard cast bullet you could find for the 45 auto for either personal defense or field work.  I called Oregon Cast Bullets yesterday and asked them for their catalog and hope to see that bullet when the catalog arrives.

If this is the bullet I think it is and if it is sized to .451/.452 I will order a bunch and load em up.  I usually load my 45 ACPs to duplicate the factory velocity loads from the older Lyman Manuals and will go 6.5-6.8 or Unique for 875-900'/sec, or use some of the Vitha Vourhy (?) powders that give a bit more flexibility in powder charges and see how they shoot.

My only concern when I saw the bullet was that I thought the metplat looked to be about 43 caliber - nice and fat and flat, but wondered if it might hang up on some loading ramps - might be time to find out pretty soon.  I'll keep ya posted and let you know how they shoot.  Mikey.

Offline S.S.

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2004, 08:11:13 AM »
I too have tested
the Aguila IQ ammo and got some very good results .
HOWEVER !    These results were eratic depending on caliber.
The 9mm sucked badly. The hollowpoint closed shut and
then we had what amounted to a chisel-tip FMJ.
The .40 Cal. Tumbled on impact for some reason?
and departed the Ballistic Gel. (Thus no bullets to inspect)
I would not want to get hit by a .40 cal IQ, Its tumbling
would make a dreadful wound!
The .45 reacted  Simularly to what Deputy stated, Except I got
4 pieces. three would shear off the main body and radiate outward
while the base of the bullet stayed close to line of impact.
Penetration was anywhere from 6 1/2 -9 inches.

My suggestion for a round to carry in a .45 auto is the Hydra-Shok.
The tests I have done would put it out in front for performance
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline S.S.

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2004, 08:20:30 AM »
OOPS!
I Read deputy's post again, Three pieces and a base!
AADD must have been actin' up when I read it the first time!
Sounds like he got the same results I did
with the .45.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Mikey

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Cast loads for the 45 acp
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2004, 03:40:03 AM »
Hay Jim in Iowa:  I received the flyer from Oregon Trails last night but when I looked at the designs of the bullets they offered I did not see the bullet I had mentioned in a previous post when you had asked about my preferences for hardcast bullets for personal defense.

Oregon Trails makes a number of pistol bullets, and revolver bullets but most seem to be fairly typical designs.  I recall that the one design I thought looked like a real overall winner for both field and defense applications was a 230 gn bullet designed for the 45 Schofield.  I think it was a 1 groove bullet that looked like a slightly smaller version of a 45 Colt caliber 255 gn SWC and I felt it would be a great shooter in the acp.  

Well, since I didn't see what I had hoped to see in the information OT sent I am gonna have to keep looking until I find it.  I'll get back at ya when I have that information firmly in hand.  Sorry.  Mikey.

Offline MONGO

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2004, 04:23:43 PM »
Is anything wrong with plain old 230grn FMJ ammo for self defense?

Offline Dusty Miller

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2004, 12:40:50 AM »
Well, there wasen't in 1945 but there's been a bit of improvement in self-defense ammo since then!
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2004, 02:38:47 AM »
Quote from: MONGO
Is anything wrong with plain old 230grn FMJ ammo for self defense?
Dali Llama say that while such round typically feed better, it prone to overpenetration and thus potential injury of innocent bystanders.  Dali say utilization of such 230 grain FMJ thus arguably less defensible in court, but may be preferable over handloaded "manstoppers" :roll:  in such worst case legalistic scenario. :-)
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk

Offline Mikey

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2004, 02:45:15 AM »
MONGO:  While Dali Lama's last post raises significant concern for legal liability, my 45s are always stuffed with 230 gn ball.  They worked well enough for me while I was in the service and I feel that if I ever have to use either of those 45s the scenario will be about the same - keep shooting until they are down and out.  I also feel that if that sort of a situation ever arises again there is most likely not to be any, ummm, innocent victims in the area.  Mikey.

Offline Savage

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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2004, 03:47:47 AM »
I think misses are more of a concern than overpenetration. Believe me, there are plenty of those in just about any gunfight.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2004, 04:34:38 AM »
Hopefully by the other guy.  :oops:
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Dusty Miller

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2004, 08:32:59 AM »
FMJ hardball is also more likely to richoche (sp?) and enjure one of those innocent bystanders who shouldn't have been there!
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Dali Llama

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2004, 04:12:49 PM »
Quote from: Savage
I think misses are more of a concern than overpenetration.
That be excellent point, say Dali Llama. :-)
AKA "Blademan52" from Marlin Talk

Offline williamlayton

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2004, 11:29:42 PM »
Ricochet is a good thought--The other part may need further consideration, however.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2004, 10:26:39 AM »
I guess a lot depends on your climate and the type of clothing to be encountered.  230-grain Hydra-Shok has an excellent history, that's what I'd carry in winter, for summer I'd switch to the 165-grain load.  Both of which, by the way, I'd thoughly test in my own gun for feed reliability first!  :wink:

PJ
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline BamBams

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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2004, 04:13:58 PM »
230g Hornady XTP over 5.3g N320.  Great expansion and extremely low muzzle flash.
NRA Handgun Instructor

Offline Lawdog

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2004, 09:17:21 AM »
The two .45 auto rounds I favor and know that work are,

1.]  Federal 230 gr. Hydra-Shok JHP

2.]  Winchester 230 gr. Supreme SXT

as I have never had a feeding problem with either.  My personal favorite and the one I carry everyday is the Federal 230 gr. Hydra Shok JHP.  Small groups and tight lines to all.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline Wijbrandus

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2004, 03:41:05 AM »
Mikey,

Why do you recommend wadcutters?

I have a Sig220 in my car.  It's loaded with golden sabers.  I use the cheap stuff at the range, but every time I go I shoot what's in the mag first.  It feeds just fine and seems more accurate than the cheap UMC I shoot for fun.

Oh, and I live in an apartment, so wall penetration is a bad thing.  Thought about going to Glaser safety slugs, but I was told they were a joke by the gunshop.
~Robert
 Denver, CO

Offline BamBams

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2004, 05:13:37 AM »
Robert,

Hello neighbor,

Since you are a fellow Coloradian, and just might be an armed neighbor living near to me, I feel it's worth my time to post on this!  *smiles*

Disclaimer. The following are MY OPINION based on MY TESTING and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE so take it for FWIW.

The Glaser Safety Slugs do what they are designed to do.  Unfortunately, this means that they don't always do what we'd like them to do.  The problem lies in the the small size, quantity, and the velocity at the exact time of release of the shot from it's carrier.  ALOT of the energy gets used up immediately upon impact with the target while the carrier and shot deform and compress into one another.  Alot of friction is going on before there is any penetration at all. This small, underpowered, SOFT lead shot releases from it's carrier (copper shell W/teflon tip) upon impact.  IMHO there just isn't enough weight and velocity there, at that point, for the penetration to be notably effective on a clothed, human body.  The manufacture definitely makes the "Safety Slugs" hot.  In .45ACP, for example, they are near 1000fps, but this doesn't solve the "problem," rather it compounds it in my opinion.  Most center of mass hits are going to hit some bone, fat, gristle, etc.  If you're really, REALLY lucky though, a bit of shot might make it past all that and into a vital organ or artery.

I've done testing with layers of dry wall and insulation while making  visual training aids for my pistol class students.  I used only .45acp and 9mm. These aids were to simulate apartment/home walls, and the results were pretty much what I expected.  The "Safety Slugs"  made it through the first layer of sheet rock, but just a few will make it through the 2nd layer.  The more range involved obviously means less penetration as the velocity of the projectile decreases.   Now, if "I" shoot an aggressor, I mostly want him to bleed out very quickly and also shatter his spine or skull.  I don't shoot as a deterrent.  I shoot to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. Believe it or not, a hyped up aggressor isn't always going to run away from a firefight just because he's been shot or blinded with a safety slug.  Self preservation kicks in, and there's a really good chance he's going to keep shooting at you and worry about getting his wounds fixed later - whether he can see you or not.  Many DEFENSE shootings have also involved more than one round fired.    

Moreover, a good, fragmenting, hollow point bullet really won't go very far IF it slowed down by hitting the aggressor in the center of mass.  My testing with these is that they won't even go through two 1" layers of pine that are spaced 24 inches apart - .45acp.  They will usually imbed themselves in the second layer.

Yes, an effective "Safety Slug" shot could pretty much guarantee a dead perpetrator, (hopefully too many wound channels for a Dr. to stitch up) but I question just how quickly an aggressor would be STOPPED with a "Safety Slug."  If the aggressor is wearing thick clothing - especially layers - then "Safety Slugs" are even less effective.

Personally, my hope is that, should my home come under attack by a criminal, I'll be able to use a 12 gauge shotgun and not my pistol.  The pistol is primarily for concealed carry and home backup.  There is very little comparison between the effects of a shotgun blast vs. a "Safety Slug" as the former has much more close range power and shot size can be increased to over .30 caliber.  9 to 12 pellets of 00 Buckshot are extremely devastating.  Choose the lowest dram weight buckshot you can get.  At self defense ranges, you'll create a wound channel that your cat can jump through, but collateral damage, other than a lot of splatter in the room, is still kept to a minimum.

FWIW:  I believe accurate, thoughtful shooting is the skill we should devolop and the best way to protect fellow apartment dwellers and loved ones.  Practice is the key. Once a person has the fundamentals down to habit,  good shooting then become 95% mental (at least).  When I practice defensive shooting, I always say to myself "I don't miss!"  That attitude forces me to focus on bullet placement more instead of getting mentally distracted on things that could prevent accurate bullet placement.  Thinking, "I don't miss," before each shot has become a good habit for me.  Now I'm not talking about "concentration" here.  That takes too long.  By "focus" I mean, "awareness" - being aware of where that bullet is going to go before pulling the trigger - whether it's point shooting, flash sight picture, or even an aimed shot.  A well practiced shooter can always call their shots - especially at normal self-defense ranges  

There is a school of thought that, (read some Ayoob) under stress, one can be expected to freak out and spray bullets everywhere.  These people believe that a person's brain goes haywire under life and death situations.  This only happens to the undertrained and underprepared individual.  Stress can actually be used to increase focus and awareness in a life and death encounter.  Stress can be used to totally stifle the effects of "fear" and create a calm that is unimaginable to the uninitiated. That's how I would suggest one protect their neighbors and the people in the next room.
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Offline TScottO

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Self-Defense ammo for .45 ACP
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2004, 05:14:02 PM »
I'll pitch in my vote for the golden saber. I've also been looking around for a bullet with a decent size meplat.

Be Safe,
Scott