Author Topic: Unburnt Powder  (Read 907 times)

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Offline 95Road King

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Unburnt Powder
« on: April 14, 2004, 12:46:02 PM »
I"M getting a lot of unburnt powder in my 45-70 using,3031, 4350 , 4895
  and even rx-7. My question is, should I crimp the bullet or not??

Offline JPH45

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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2004, 02:05:02 PM »
The answer to your question is simple, but somewhat detailed. Many people have exactly the same problem you describe with exactly the same powders. The underlying reason for this is the expansion ratio of the 45-70 and it's operating pressures simply don't alow powders of the speeds you are working with to develop enough pressure to burn cleanly. Expansion ratio is simply the volume of the bore divided by the volume of the case. When we fire a cartridge, the bullet moves. (sorry for being so obvious) as the bullet moves the volume the burning gases have to fill also increases. The greater the volume, the faster the pressure drops. Most smokless powders burn best at pressures at and aboove 40,000 PSI. Most 45-70 loadings are only generating 18,000 to 30,000 PSI. A few are hotter, but not enjoyable in a rifle as light as the Handi. I would suggest that you find a load that shoots good and forget about the unburned powder, there is little to be done about it. You might try magnum primers, and yes you can try crimping as well, but neither will solve the problem as the problem is one of operating pressure, the nature of smokeless powders and expansion ratio. I have found that even 2400 does not burn cleanly in the 45-70, so switching to faster powders may not solve this for you. Good shooting, JP.
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Offline ScatterGunner

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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2004, 03:35:57 PM »
what bullet are you using ????

try a 420 grain cast lead bullet with IMR-3031

a light bullet will cause unburnt powder !

crimping probably won't help, it would if you had a really small cardtridges using fast powder.
there''s room for all of God''s fauna and flora, right on my dinner plate!

Offline 95Road King

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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2004, 04:32:56 PM »
Thank"s for the Info guys. I"M using a 350gr. lead bullet. I"M going to try a faster powder and a slight crimp. See what happen"s.
                                                                John

Offline ScatterGunner

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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2004, 01:46:12 AM »
95 -

11 - 13 grains unique works really well for me with the 420 grain bullets.

try somewhere in the range of 9 - 14 grains for the 350 grain bullet.

unique is clean as a whistle !
there''s room for all of God''s fauna and flora, right on my dinner plate!

Offline missed_shot

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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2004, 02:00:33 AM »
I USE 36 GR. OF 3031 and get unburned powder. I chronoed the load and get 1350 fps out of my buff classic. Point is- the unburned powder doesn't hurt velocities  or accuracy. :D
DONUTS - IS THERE ANYTHING THEY CAN'T DO ??- HOMER SIMPSON

Offline missed_shot

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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2004, 02:03:10 AM »
I USE 36 GR. OF 3031 and get unburned powder. I chronoed the load and get 1350 fps out of my buff classic. Point is- the unburned powder doesn't hurt velocities  or accuracy. :D
DONUTS - IS THERE ANYTHING THEY CAN'T DO ??- HOMER SIMPSON

Offline 95Road King

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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2004, 06:42:53 AM »
Thank"s guy"S,
          The reason I was concerd was that I had so much unburnt powder
          I couldn"t get the next cartridge to chamber!!! No joke.
                                                              John

Offline ScatterGunner

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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2004, 07:04:40 AM »
that's a lot of unburnt powder ! usually you will get a bunch of black flecks in the barrel, but you seem to have a little more than that. sounds like a job for Unique, those IMR's are too slow to build up any appreciable pressure with your load configuration.

sg
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Offline 95Road King

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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2004, 12:15:54 PM »
Scattergunner,
           I"M going to try IMR4198 and AA1680 which I have on hand
           if I can find a safe load. These are fast powders!!. If you know
           or find any loads for these pwdrs., let me know. I haven"t checked
           any of my books yet. May go there now. Been out working around
           house all day.                John

Offline ScatterGunner

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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2004, 01:27:40 PM »
for IMR4198 the starting load is 33 grains. the max load would be 43 grains. i don't have any data on 1680.

one thing you may want to try is put a wad in the case to hold the powder towards the base of the shell. when the powder is held against the rear of the case, the ignition is more consistant and hotter because the primer brisque, or energy, isn't spread out over the entire case volume. i've seen wads raise pressure 3000 or so psi which would help you out. use rayon or dacron batting, the fluffy pad stuff they use in blankets, a square piece between 1/2" and 3/4 " and about 1/4" thick works good. some people swear by cotton wads, i tried them but they don't burn very well and you can end up with a ball of cotton in your case that doesnt want to fall out. dacron vaporizes pretty much. so dump the powder in, push the wad in all the way back into the case so it holds the powder against the rear of the case.


sg
there''s room for all of God''s fauna and flora, right on my dinner plate!

Offline 95Road King

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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2004, 04:22:21 PM »
Scattergunner,
            Thanks for the Info. Don"t know when I"LL shoot the 45-70 as I"m working on some Ground Hog loads now. I have the Buffalo Classic. Nice gun.                   John

Offline safetysheriff

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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2004, 04:38:54 PM »
95RK'

This may be going against the grain but for whatever it's worth:  yes, I'd crimp the bullet(not a mild crimp, but a good one!), possibly seating it deeper than you're seating it now (if practical and not too hard on accuracy), and I'd expect the pressure to build up better in the firearm using a jacketed bullet or a heavier lead bullet.     But, expansion ratio has nothing to do with the unburned powder.    You'd get unburned powder out of the rifle you're having problems with if the barrel was 68" long -- I believe -- simply because of the ignition problem I expect you are having.     Magnum primers might be a good answer to this situation, but once again, using a good, strong crimp.    

Another suggestion, change brand of brass case.....looking for a heavier, smaller-volume case to help with building pressures for ignition.     The same way military cases build pressures in the applicable rifle cartridges we all love, you should see a difference -- though probably to a lesser degree -- by changing brass.      Just work up your loads properly.  

Just think of the .45-70 -- straight-walled cartridge that it is -- as an oversized revolver cartridge.....and crimp it like you would a good magnum load for a handgun.     It'll make a difference if the powder is proper for the cartridge in the first place.  

Hope this helps.
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline handirifle

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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2004, 06:41:44 PM »
road king
Shoot, use the BC for a ground hog gun.  Good long range practice.  I think it'll kill 'em if you hit 'em :grin: .
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Offline 95Road King

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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2004, 01:47:25 AM »
SafteySheriff,
           Good advice. I"LL try that. Thank"s.

            Handi-rifle,
                    Hog hunt with 45-70!!!.  Hmmmm   They are tough.
             Mabey that"s what  I need to anchor them.LOL :grin: