Author Topic: '51 Colt Navy  (Read 1570 times)

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Offline Joseph Wheeler

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'51 Colt Navy
« on: April 16, 2004, 02:47:19 PM »
I just purchased my first cap and ball pistol , a Colt 1851 navy "Civilian Model" reproduction made by Pietta . My question is how do you remove the barrel wedge for removal of the cylinder and barrel  ? My manual says tap it lightly but I have tapped lightly, I've hit it hard and soft ive pried and prodded and poked and prised and I cant get it out. I have the Wedge screw removed and the rammer removed but the wedge remains . There must be a trick beyond "light tapping" to remove this sucker . You guys know the trick ?Thanks in advance -Joe Wheeler (Matt)

Offline Shorty

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2004, 03:59:54 PM »
Joseph,
Ah, Pietta.  Removing the retaining screw makes no difference.  If a smart tap with a brass or plastic mallet won't do the job, something is wrong.  You may have to get "aggressive" with it.   :twisted:  Smack that sucker!

 :)

Offline stepnmud

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2004, 04:36:36 PM »
Sounds like your on the right rack. Can remove the barrel wedge screw completely and then pull the wedge completely out, it's spring loaded.
 then go to half cock and use the loading lever against the cylinder face  to help push off the the barrel. and after numerous times and cleaning , it becomes easier to do.
 Good luck and post if need more help.

Offline Joseph Wheeler

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The Right End
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2004, 06:27:49 AM »
This may sound ridiculous but I want to make sure I am hitting the right end of the wedge . There on the right side of the frame the wedge is flush with the rest of the frame , on the left side the sucker sticks out about 3/8 of an inch , I have been smacking the end that is flush with the frame , this is correct isnt it ? I tried some more this morning to remove it but it is steadfast , I am begining to wish I had purchased a Remington  :) I have even make some knicks and dings in the pistol tapping on this thing , it cant really be this hard , I can send it to a gunsmith , besides hurting my pride I cant really afford it and there isnt one within 50 miles anyhow , so I got it saturated in oil now and will try later any more tips would be appreciated . Also which is better Pyrodex or real Black powder ? Pyrodex is less corrosive than powder is it not  ?

Offline Prof. Fuller Bullspit

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2004, 06:34:14 AM »
Get a brass rod and put that against the wedge (you are hitting the correct side) and give the brass rod a tap with the hammer. I have a Pietta that is the same way, the wedge doesn't protrude far enough on the right side to get a good whack at it. This will loosen as you shoot it some.

It can take a good smack to get the pin moving. Once it does it will come out easily. Watch out and try not to let the wedge come all of the way out of its hole because they are a booger to get back in!

I don't think Pyrodex is that much less corrosive than true black. It's a good substitute and I would just shoot what I could get!

Offline Flint

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wedge
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2004, 07:26:04 AM »
Prof Fuller is on the track.  If the wedge is basically flush, you cant get enough contact with it to drive it out.  Get a brass punch, or wedge removing tool, so that your hit is on the wedge only and not the barrel.  They sell a rectangular brass drift for muzzleloading rifle wedges, and they work very well.  Yes, the small end (right side) is the one to hit.  Any brass (or alumunum) rod, slightly smaller than the wedge thickness will work.  Make sure you use a leather or wooden mallet.
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Offline Joseph Wheeler

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I got it !
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2004, 11:36:08 AM »
Hey guys I finaly got that wedge out . I had it soak for several hours in oil then I got a hole punch and a 5 pound rubber mallet , closed my eyes , gritted my teeth , and whacked it . It popped out after the 5 or 6th hit . It goes way against my learning to whack a piece off of a gun with a hammer and a chisel , but I reckon I will get used to it . I also hated cleaning the thing with soapy water after firing but it worked beautifully . I appreciate the tips fellers . Im used to popping .45 or .38 brass cartridges into my Smiths and Colts and blasting away , the Cap and Ball revolver is a bit more technical I am learning , but I bet remarkable accuracy is possible considering you can customize each load specific to the particular revolvers needs . I got a few more questions for ya'll . The first concerning brass framed revolvers , many sources tell me that no brass frame revolver is fit to be actually fired but they are just for looking at , I have heard all sorts of stories of brass framers exploding or falling apart at the range . What is you guys experience with such pieces ? Are they sound ? Also how can one get in touch with Colt Black Powder Arms Co. I used to recieve their Catalogs regularly now I cant even find their Homepage on the Web . Again thanks for the help Much appreciated - Joe Wheeler

Offline Prof. Fuller Bullspit

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2004, 11:50:38 AM »
I don't have any experience with brass framed guns but I've heard from many people that they tend to wear out or stretch over time.

I've not heard of "blowups" before. The only thing I can think of that would be catastrophic would be if the cylinder bolt/arbor or whatever it's called got pulled out of the frame on a shot. That might make your barrel shoot off the front of the gun.

I too was a little put off at the thought of putting a gun under a stream of hot water. My brain kept saying, "water bad!". But it sure works!

Offline Gatofeo

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2004, 01:06:59 PM »
I clean my cap and ball revolvers in hot, soapy water. Here's what to do:
Buy a plastic tub at least 12 X 12 inches.
buy a small, plastic collander, the kind used to drain salads. The collander should fit within the plastic tub and leave plenty of room for all the parts.
Buy an assortment of very small plastic or bristle brushes, both the toothbrush style and the paintbrush style. Gourmet stores sell them for cake decorating.
Buy some pipe cleaners and Q-tips too.
Buy two .40 or .41 caliber bronze brushes: one for the chambers and one for the bore. A dab of black paint on the shank of one identifies its use.
Fill the tub with hot, soapy water. Toss in a chunk of Ivory soap. Why Ivory? Cuz it floats and you can find it easily.
Here's how to do a total cleaning, which is necessary from time to time. However, most of the time you can get by cleaning the cylinder and barrel assembly, and wiping fouling from the frame, hammer nose and other places with  a patch or Q-tip dampened in soapy water.
Not wet, mind you, just damp. Follow with a dry patch or Q-tip. Keep any moisture out of the action or fouling deep in the action will promote rust.
Submerge the plastic colander in the bin full of hot, soapy water.
Remove the nipples from your cylinder. Unscrew everything from the Colt and place all parts in the bin of hot, soapy water (all but the wooden grips, of course. Set them aside. More on them later).
Nipples are the hardest to clean, unless you know how. Bend a pipe cleaner into a 90-degree angle 1 inch or so from the end. With the pipe cleaner and nipple under water, pump and twist the pipe cleaner into the cap end orifice of the nipple.
This will clean the nipple interior.
Now, use a small brush underwater to clean the top, threads and bottom of the nipple. You may also lather the brush with Ivory and clean it first above the water, then submerge it. This really gets crud off.
The pipe cleaner in the nipple makes it easier to hold the nipple while you do this.
When all the nipples are clean, drop them into the colander. The colander becomes your "Clean Parts" bin.
All parts but the barrel assembly can usually fit in the colander.
I run a bronze brush through the bore a few times, with as much of the barrel submerged as possible. This removes fouling in the corners of the grooves. Leading is usually never a problem in these revolvers.
Use a separate bronze brush on a rod to clean out the chambers. Most bronze brushes won't get all the fouling at the bottom, but a Q-tip will and they're cheap.
When all parts are thoroughly scrubbed clean, move the bin to your kitchen sink.
Turn on the oven to its lowest setting and get out a large, flat cake pan. Not a cookie sheet, you need something with edges to keep screws from rolling off.
Set the pan aside.
Put the strainer in the sink, set to drain.
Get the tap water hot and rinse all parts in the colander thoroughly.
When rinsed of soap, shake parts dry and place them in the pan.
The cylinder and bore can be dried with numerous dry patches.
Place the cylinder and barrel assembly in the pan too.
Give a quick, hard puff to the orifice end of each nipple, to blow out any water in the nipple.
Place the revolver frame in the pan upside down, so all screw holes are open to the air.
Place the pan full of metal parts in the oven and leave the door open a bit, so moisture can escape. Allow the parts to heat in the oven, at least half an hour. I usually go 45 minutes.
Remember, use a very low setting.
Now, on to the grips.
If they are heavily fouled inside the channel, a quick scrubbing with a plastic bristle brush under the hot faucet won't hurt them. But do it quickly, don't let the wood become sodden.
If there are carvings or checkering on the wood, they may be cleaned quickly with a damp toothbrush to move the crud out of the carving onto the upper surface of the wood, where it may be wiped away with a soft cloth.
Dry the wood thoroughly, inside and out, with cloth patches. In a pinch, paper towels will work.
Allow the grips to dry overnight. Don't put them in the oven or you may affect the finish on the grips.
When the metal parts are dry and warm, oil them heavily with lard, olive oil, Crisco or any other natural grease or oil.
Do NOT use a petroleum oil or grease on your revolver. Avoid any petroleum grease or oil, it has the propensity to make fouling tar-like and difficult to remove.
Patches wet with olive oil, run up and down the bore and the chambers, will keep them from rusting. If the metal is still warm, you may also use Crisco or lard (but ensure that the lard is salt-free! Most of it is, but I've seen some lard with salt in it too.
Allow your warm parts to sit overnight heavily covered in natural oil or grease. Wipe off the excess the next day and reassemble.
Remember to use a little oil on the threads of the nipples. Makes them easier to remove at the next cleaning.
The next day, when the grips are dry, oil them well with lemon oil or, for a nice shine, a mix of lemon oil and beeswax. Heck, even olive oil will do a passable job of oiling the wood. I don't recommend Pledge or any other furniture wax; the wax builds up and it makes the grips very slippery.
No need to remove the oil or natural grease from the bore or chambers. It will continue to soak in and keep the metal rust-free.
I've cleaned my cap and ball revolvers for over 30 years with the above method. They bear no pits or other evidence of rust or abuse.
My Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy has lost much of its dark blue and taken on a silver patina (black powder fouling is slightly abrasive, so over time it will remove bluing). It looks almost like an old original, a condition I prefer over jet black and shiny.
I don't give my revolvers the above thorough cleaning each time I return from shooting, but do it only when the action begins to drag from excessive fouling.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline Flint

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51 navy
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2004, 03:25:27 PM »
I don't believe Colt Black Powder exists anymore.  If you need catalogs of cap & balls, look at ubertireplicas.com and Cimarron, Taylors, Navy Arms, etc.  Brass frames will stretch and fail earlier than steel frames.  They won't "blow up" as the powder charge is not contained in the brass, but in the steel cylinder, and pressures go to the steel barrel.  I no longer clean cap & ball revolvers with water.  I use Ballistol/water mix (moose milk) and /or MP7.  Water removes too much finish in time, and I'd rather keep them blue.  A good Uberti 51 Navy in steel frame would keep you much happier in the long run.
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Offline Joseph Wheeler

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Navies
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2004, 04:06:48 PM »
I cant really attest to the quality of Piettas just yet . My "Civilian Model" Navy is put together really well , with fit and finish that is just outstanding. There is only one toolmark behind the triggerguard . As far as cosmetics go the pistol is better in fact than any of my 1950's and 60's model Smith and Wesson Revolvers . Of course I've only fired it today accuracy was better than I expected it grouped 6 inches at 100 feet , with time it'll do better I believe . In the long run who knows how it will hold up , out of the box I would consider it extremely good quality as high as any pistol I've ever purchased Im already wanting an 1861 Navy  :-)

Offline filmokentucky

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2004, 07:29:15 PM »
Colt Blackpowder has been gone for quite a while now. All they were offering at the end was the signature series-they were standard Colts with Sam Colt's signature stamped into the back strap. Quality wasn't up to second generation level either. If you just have to have one, there are some for sale on gunbroker.com. I've got a 60 Army from the Signature series and it shoots okay. It needed to be deburred and tuned up and it still has that goofy signature in the backstrap. It looks like it was assembled by a bunch of drunks with the D.T.s- they blued it over polishing marks and the grips are pretty crude. I got it used for a very good price and I don't worry if it picks up a ding or two. Compared to my second generation guns though it's a real dog.
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Offline Joseph Wheeler

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Colt Blackpowder
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2004, 07:01:58 AM »
I always assumed since they were "Colts" they had to be better quality than the Italian made imports , I usta look at Colts catalogs few years back and thought them pistols were mighty fine . I never put the dough together to get one though , seems that might have been a good thing now . You guys ever own the models sold by Cimarron or however its spelled ? They seem mighty nice .

Offline filmokentucky

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2004, 07:12:13 AM »
The second generation Colts are very nicely made and can be picked up for reasonable money as shooters(some normal wear and no box). I wouldn't sell mine for all the tea in China. The Cimarron guns are Ubertis and finished to a high standard. The ones I've seen are hard to tell from a Colt. I've heard that Beretta, now that they own Uberti, are going to stop supplying guns to Cimarron. So if you want one now is probably the time to get it.
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Offline Dalton Masterson

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'51 Colt Navy
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2004, 12:08:54 PM »
I did have a brass frame failure. The sear spring, broke, and the cylinder over indexed, but not far enough to prevent firing. The ball hit the edge of the barrel, then ripped the cylinder pin out of the frame. Didn't even know it had happened until I tried to holster the gun. Didnt feel any different or anything other than weight. Now, its spirit is in many of my steel framers as parts, and the rest is JB welded back together for display only. I wonder if this was a steel frame gun what would have happened?? DM