Author Topic: Wincester Trapper 44mag Is it a 150 Yard deer gun (Read 4905 times)

jae · « **on:** April 16, 2004, 06:00:39 PM »

Well guys evry deer I.ve shoot in my life has been inside 80 yards. I guess I just would like to hear from guys with Winchester Trappers in 44 Mags that have killed Deer at ranges out to 150 yards and thier comments on the gun . And what load they used. Thanks John

leverfan · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2004, 06:56:02 PM »

John-

If you can hit a sheet of paper 10 out of 10 times at 150 yards from a field shooting position, not the bench, with that Trapper, then it's a 150 yard deer gun for you. If they shoot well in your gun, I'd recommend Hornady's 240 grain HP-XTP on a full charge of H110 or W296. It should land on the 150 yard line doing about 1200 fps, and if that doesn't put deer down where you live, you've got some big deer in your neck of the woods. If you zero your gun for 100 yards, you'll be about 5 or 6 inches low at 150 yards. It's no laser, but it will do fine for most of the shots made in N.A.

Harry Snippe · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2004, 06:01:59 AM »

Well I find hitting a 10" plate @100 yards needs some careful work out of a trapper.That's using 240 Hornadyover 26gr. H 110
I think that 150 yards is pushing things and you would be better of with a different gun.
I can do better with my S&W 29 at that range . Could be that the S&W has a tighter bore.

At 150 yards what is your hold over

Castaway · « **Reply #3 on:** April 18, 2004, 10:26:41 AM »

I can hit 10" at 100 yards, day in, day out with my Trapper in 45 Colt. Biggest "problem" is the point of impact. I sight my hunting loads dead on at 50 yards, as that's where most of what I've ever shot was standing when it met the bullet. For 100 yard shots, to keep the same point of impact, I need to crank up my tang sight a full turn. I guess the solution would be a 75 yard zero (or going a little higher at 50), but I'm stubborn, and my range only has 50 and 100 yard targets, AND I know how to correct for the offset any way.

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 18, 2004, 11:02:30 AM »

my marlin 1894 will knock over bowling pins every time at 100 yards; with a dead on hold. if i had a clear shot at a deer at 150 and time to take a rest i would do it.

Ganjiro · « **Reply #5 on:** April 20, 2004, 10:25:23 AM »

I've shot wild boar at 125 yards with my Marlin .44 mag, and I know my gun well enough after 30 years that 150 yards would not be a problem. The 44 mag has more than enough oomph at 150 yards to drop a deer. The shooter needs to get to know his gun, it's potential, and limitations. He also needs to have confidence in his gun. This comes only from familiarity which only comes with practice. With a Trapper to shoot accurately at that range I highly recommend a receiver mount peep sight to increase the sight radius, or (heaven forbid) a scope. Also again alot of range time to really get to know your rifle, and get to know your own potential as a shooter.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #6 on:** April 29, 2004, 07:28:51 AM »

Believe it or not, the 44 mag in a rifle is more powerful out to about 150 yards than the proven 30-30 Win. So within that 150 yards anything that you can do with a 30-30 you can do with a 44 magnum in your rifle.
Cam

dukkillr · « **Reply #7 on:** April 29, 2004, 02:25:24 PM »

here's a link i refer to for questions about lever action performance:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_rifle_cartridges.htm

Ron T. · « **Reply #8 on:** April 29, 2004, 04:42:29 PM »

Here's the results of running the following through my ballistics program: a .44 caliber bullet weighing 240 grains with a ballistic coefficient of .194, a muzzle velocity of 1800 fps, muzzle energy of 1726 ft/lbs and the sight 1.0 inches above the center-line of the rifle's bore zero'd at 100 yards.

25 yards: + .44", MV= 1714 fps, Energy = 1565 ft/lbs.
50 yards: + 1.2", V= 1630 fps, Energy = 1416 ft/lbs.
75 yards: + 1.01", V= 1550 fps, Energy = 1280 ft/lbs.
100 yards: ± 0.00", V= 1473 fps, Energy = 1156 ft/lbs.
125 yards: - 2.02", V= 1401 fps, Energy = 1046 ft/lbs.
150 yards: - 5.18", V= 1335 fps, Energy = 949 ft/lbs.
175 yards: - 9.54", V= 1272 fps, Energy = 863 ft/lbs.
200 yards: -15.22", V= 1216 fps, Energy = 788 ft/lbs.

This sure looks like a 125 yard deer rifle to me. But I put this ballistics table here so that you can draw your own conclusions.

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2004, 01:52:23 PM »

the answear to your question really is- can you hold it straight?That's a heck of a lot more important than the guns capability- which I generally find is more than mine

SeaBass · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2004, 06:54:15 PM »

"Believe it or not, the 44 mag in a rifle is more powerful out to about 150 yards than the proven 30-30 Win. So within that 150 yards anything that you can do with a 30-30 you can do with a 44 magnum in your rifle. Cam"

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Might want to check out the link dukkillr posted. The 30-30 beats the .44mag in every category. It even has less recoil.

I think 150 yds might be pushing it. Just get sneakier! :wink:
SB

Camp Cook · « **Reply #11 on:** June 10, 2004, 09:59:14 AM »

SeaBass are you taking into account the far greater penetration of the heavier 44mag or 45Colt bullets that are being used. The penetration of the 30-30 is far less than the 44mag or 45Colt. I'm not just refering to the 240gr bullets but to 300gr bullets and up. I've learnt to not just look at the energy figures when comparing loads now.
Cam

leverfan · « **Reply #12 on:** June 10, 2004, 07:14:02 PM »

Quote from: Camp Cook

SeaBass are you taking into account the far greater penetration of the heavier 44mag or 45Colt bullets that are being used. The penetration of the 30-30 is far less than the 44mag or 45Colt. I'm not just refering to the 240gr bullets but to 300gr bullets and up. I've learnt to not just look at the energy figures when comparing loads now.
Cam

If you're going to say that the 44 mag and 45 Colt penetrate deeper than the 30-30, we really need to compare similar bullet styles to be fair. A hard cast .308" 170 grain flatnose lead bullet going over 2200 fps out of a 30-30 is going to be flying out the far side of most animals. The hole won't be as wide as a 44 or 45 produces, obviously, but sectional density and velocity are both on the side of the 30-30 if you compare bullets that are made to penetrate. In fact, a 15-16 BHN, 170 grain FNGC bullet in a 30-30 with peep sights is an excellent all-around set up for folks that like to stalk and hunt up relatively close.

Even expanding 170 grain bullets from the 30-30 can plow diagonally through a deer without any problem, and my grandfather took plenty of big Roosevelt elk with his 30-30 and 170 grainers. Of course, nobody back then "knew" that you needed a scoped 338 to hunt elk, they just used what they had and did very well. In that same vein, I would be just as pleased with a 44, 45, or 30-30 lever gun, as I believe that any of them will put meat on the table just fine.

SeaBass · « **Reply #13 on:** June 10, 2004, 07:47:26 PM »

How fast can you push that 300 gr bullet? I don't have numbers for a 300gr. When you increase to a 275gr @ 1580fps from 240gr @ 1760 you go from 1015ft-lb to 1020ft-lb @ 100yd. you do get a nice increase @ 200yds from 661ft-lb to 730ft-lb.

But that is still way below a the 989ftlb a 30-30 has @ 200 and that is with only a 170gr bullet. You can go heavy with a .30-30 as well.

A bullet with more energy and a greater sectional density(the .30-30)
is going to penetrate deeper.

The .44mag may make a bigger hole, but it will not penetrate deeper from what I can see.

The .44mag is a fine cartridge and I would have no problem hunting with it out to a 100yds or so. But it is a pistol cartridge in the end.

SB

SeaBass · « **Reply #14 on:** June 10, 2004, 07:51:07 PM »

Camp Cook · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2004, 05:04:10 AM »

I used to believe the same as you guys on the capabilities of the 30-30 Win over the 44mag or 45colt in rifles until I read articles like "45 Colt in Lever Action Rifles" which can be found @ http:www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm.
About halfway thruogh the article is where Paco compares the 30-30 to the 44 mag and 45 colt in rifles.
Another article that is a great read and is by John Taffin is found @
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/home?tb=art then type "Heavy Weight Bullets in the 44 Magnum" into the search engine then click on search.
Cam

Castaway · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2004, 10:30:33 AM »

It ain't all about foot pounds. You can push a sewing needle fast enough and it will have 1,000 ft lbs of energy, but I sure would't want to shoot anything with it. Other factors come into play, diameter of bullet, mass of bullet, size of meplat along with velocity. If you can keep your shots in the kill zone at 150 yards, the deer wouldn't be able to tell you what he got shot with, a 30-30, 44 Mag or a judicious hand load in the vaunted 45 Colt caliber.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2004, 12:17:39 PM »

Lets look at closer ranges.....
What of these three rounds would you want to have in a rifle if you had a bear or mountain lion attacking you?

leverfan · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2004, 07:40:16 PM »

Quote from: Camp Cook

Lets look at closer ranges.....
What of these three rounds would you want to have in a rifle if you had a bear or mountain lion attacking you?

I would want whatever rifle I was the most comfortable with, and I wouldn't give a second thought to caliber. It's about placement and penetration, and all three rounds are quite capable, especially on cougar. A 30-30 with 170 grain bullets will settle your problem with a black bear quite nicely, if you're up to the task. If you're not, it won't matter what you're shooting. Taffin and Paco have their opinions, and they're welcome to them, but most cougars and bears aren't familiar with their articles.

If I'm in brown bear country, I would lean towards something a little more like a 45-70, 35 Whelen, etc., just for my own peace of mind.

Remember, if you're going to compare penetration, make it a fair comparison. Load the 44, 45, and the 30-30 with hard cast bullets, and the 30-30 with 170 grain and heavier bullets will win the penetration test every time. If somebody starts comparing hard cast 44 and 45 bullets to expanding 30-30 bullets, they're talking apples and oranges, and they're wasting my time.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #19 on:** June 16, 2004, 10:08:53 AM »

The way that I look at it has not only to do with energy and penetration, but also wound channel and killing capabilities of the round. Within a hundred yards I would much rather have a 300gr .429" or greater caliber bullet working for me than a small 170gr .308" caliber even when you are comparing apples to apples. If you follow Keith's "Killing Scale" formula at all even my 45 Colt in my 5.5" Ruger Bisley Vaquero's have more killing power than the 30-30win.

My last question was not which caliber/cartridge others would use if they had a choice but which one of these three would they choose. With out a doubt I would choose my Marlin 1894CB 45Colt with 335gr Cast Performance WFNGC's or 300gr Hornady XTP's in the tube. I spend most of my time working in remote wilderness areas and have had to shoot several bears with the different catridges that we have been discussing and my pre 64 30-30win is the last of the three that I would use.

If I was to take my pick of which rifle/caliber I would use for brown/grizzly bears or any other dangerous game in North America. I would be hard pressed not to use and actually have carried and used extensively my Marlin 1895GS with 400gr Speer @ over 1900fps, Cast Performance 430gr WFNGC's @ 1880fps or Jae-Bok 550gr Crater' @ 1580fps, a Sako Hunter V in .375 H&H mag with 300gr Nosler Partitions @ 2500fps a 300 Remington Ultra Mag with 200gr Swift A-frame's @ 3250fps and a Remington 870 12 gauge with a 18.5" barrel, rifle sights and 7 round extended mag with 3" slugs.

Use your Winchester Trapper 44mag and be happy knowing that you have a very good quality hard hitting rifle/cartridge combination that will do the job for you. Just get out and practice and make sure that you can place your shots with confidence.
Cam

SeaBass · « **Reply #20 on:** June 16, 2004, 08:07:44 PM »

Camp Cook,
I read the article about 45 colt in a lever gun. It was very interesting and the numbers were quite impressive.
However, He states right at the beginning that some of these loads are above SAAMI specs.

So, if you load your 45 colt or .44 mag with huge cast bullets beyond recommended limits and are willing to take huge amounts (comparably) of recoil. Then I will concede that you may be able to out perform a FACTORY 170gr 30-30 load. You could probably do the same or better reloading a 30-30 beyond spec. But why???

If you plan on shooting factory ammo or reasonable reloads the 30-30 is the better performer. That's it.

If you don't mind the recoil and want some serious killing power find something chambered for 45-70.

I'm not trying to put down your choice of caliber. If it works for you great. I just do not agree with you statement that a 44 mag is more powerful out to 150yds than a 30-30.

Castaway · « **Reply #21 on:** June 17, 2004, 12:45:43 AM »

SeaBass, I think you are confusing apples with oranges. Of course, the 44 Mag can be loaded to above SAAMI specs, but doesn't need to be to reach the power level to adequately take a deer or comparable sized critter. The 45 Colt cartridge in factory loads is, on the other hand is, relatively mild when compared to the 44 Mag. It can be safely loaded to meet and even exceed the 44 Mag in modern guns. SAAMI specs are to insure factory loads do dot get loaded into older revolvers. It is just as safe as firing a factory loaded 44 mag from a Black Hawk if pressures are kept to 30,000 PSI or less.

Camp Cook · « **Reply #22 on:** June 17, 2004, 07:26:42 AM »

Seabass.... Castaway could not have said it better. I have not been loading my 45 Colts or 44 magnum above safe allowable specs! Actually in the last 10 years the rebirth of the 45 Colt with modern rifles, handguns, bullets and gun powders has brought out such awesome performance of this 130 year old pistol cartridge and the same goes for the 44 magnum which is factory loaded to higher pressures (40,000psi) than the 45 Colt which should not be loaded much higher than 32,000psi in stock Ruger handguns.

In the article "45 Colt in Lever Guns" it is stated that the Marlin 1894 and Win 94 can safely handle 40,000 PSI and the Win 92 can take above 50,000 PSI. Even if you load the 170gr 308 cal 30-30 to higher pressures to give say 2400fps instead of 2200fps of commonly reloaded levels or factory ammo it still does not compare to the 44 mag or 45 colt. Yes when you go beyond 130 to 150yards is when the 30-30 starts to leap ahead of these pistol calibers. But that has not been the distances that have been covered under this thread.
Cam

SeaBass · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2004, 08:06:46 PM »

Castaway with the exception of the apples and oranges part, I understand and agree with everything you said in your last post.

I never said that a .44mag wasn't capable of taking deer with factory ammo. It will do it just fine.

Camp Cook

"Yes when you go beyond 130 to 150yards is when the 30-30 starts to leap ahead of these pistol calibers. But that has not been the distances that have been covered under this thread. Cam"

150 yds is the distance this thread was speaking of.

I felt, and still do, that 150yds is a bit far for taking deer with factory .44 mag ammo. I know you can do it. I just would prefer a bit more energy than factory .44 mag loads have at that range. With the reloads you are referring to I'm sure you could extend your range to 150yds with satisfactory energy.

It seems to me that to achieve greater power than your standard 170gr 30-30 load with a .44mag is not worth it.

Personally I would rather have the greater useful trajectory and lighter recoil the 30-30 provides. If zeroed to 2.9 inches high at 100yds it has only dropped to 1.8" low at 200yds. At 200yds it still has 989ftlb of energy.

I view the .44 mag and .45 colt with a bit more respect because of this thread. But I still do not agree with your original statement.

"Believe it or not, the 44 mag in a rifle is more powerful out to about 150 yards than the proven 30-30 Win."

RIFLERANGER · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2004, 09:39:28 PM »

I hotload the 44mag to just under max recommended loads.
I can tell you that the recoil in a levergun is minimal, and IMHO, similar to or even less than that of a factory 30-30.
I would not hesitate taking on a whitetail or blackie at 150.
Both the 180gr JHPs and the 240gr JFPs are fine bullets for the task.
The 180s would probably get the nod for the longer shots as they move faster.
Ranger

Camp Cook · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2004, 07:13:35 AM »

SeaBass... the first question was about a 44 magnum out to 150 yards not beyond and now..........

"I conceed no further arguments from me".........

Thanks guys this has been the most entertaining thread that I have been involved in.
Cam

The deerslayer · « **Reply #26 on:** August 23, 2004, 07:18:09 PM »

I am sure some people shoot deer with a 44 mag at 100 yards with a handgun, so I think a rifle would be just fine at 150. But the real question is are you up to it? Just like leverfan said if you can hit the target in the right place the bullet will do the rest.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 24, 2004, 03:57:02 AM »

I think the 44mag trapper is a fine 150 deer gun. Mounted with a lower power, wide FOV scope like a 1-4x20, will help manage the rainbow trajectory issue for the shooter. Without a scope, one should spend a lot of time at the range learning how to manage this guns bullet flight path performance.

All the discussion about the 44 comparing it to the 30-30 in the circumstances the poster outlines really is meaningless to me. Either cartridge will cleanly and completely kill a deer at 150 yards with the correct bullet. Sectional density and penetration is important, but seems overstated when it comes to thin skinned med size game such as a deer. Larger heavier animals such as an elk or big bear is when SD and penetration concerns is a more critical issue to consider as far as I see it.

In any case, I would prefer to use hard cast loads in the 44. When you have .429 caliber, why be concerned with expansion on a deer or small bear for that matter. Simply eliminate the sd and penatration concerns and go with an HC load if this is a concern with the shooter.

OLEVERN · « **Reply #28 on:** September 16, 2004, 03:40:24 AM »

Just my personal opinion, but I wouldn't attempt a 150 yd shot with my Trapper in .44 mag, not because it wouldn't do the job but because I would not be confident of a hit in the vitals at that range.
If you have a scope mounted (mine has peeps) then the answer might be different.

mnblaster · « **Reply #29 on:** September 17, 2004, 10:46:44 AM »

My father shot a deer across an open field with a Marlin in .44 mag., the deer went straight down. He and I walked-off the yardage at 120 yds, we both felt the shot was pushing the limit of the cartridge.