high end target 22-Kimber-trailside-S&W model 41

[swifty]

I recently shot in a 22 match and had a ton of fun.
I have shot other matches and have come around to the decision this is a discipline of shooting that I want to develop.
I used an older S&W model 17 with a tasco target dot scope. Neither gun nor scope is now available. When you are shooting 90 shots in a match,
reliability and a finely adjusted trigger are important.
Are there any of you folks have experience using these target grade 22,that might offer comments or opion as to the most accurate and most reliable of these three handguns?I ruled out the Ruger Slab side Mark 11. It was a beast to take apart to properly clean, It had a bad habit of jamming. There were a lot of burs and manufacturing shortcuts that made it an inferior target handgun. I don't want to insult the Ruger fans . Its just not the gun for me.
I am considering a top of the line holographic sight from Doctor, Leica, or
Nikon.

[coltfan]

Swifty,
My son and I recently decided to purchase a couple of "target grade" semi-auto 22's. He picked up a High-Standard "Victor", while I decided on a Model 41. I considered buying the Victor, but didn't have the funds available at the time the gun was for sale, fortunately he did. Once I had the money together, I decided I wanted to try something different, so I opted for the 41. I was also leaning toward the 41 since they can be purchased drilled and tapped from the factory. These old eyes need optical sights more than I'd care to admit. I'm seriously thinking about the new Ultradot target model. It switches from 2, to 4, to 6, to 8  moa dots.

Both guns are far more accurate than either of us, and both are extremely reliable. If you are going to use the gun for competition, I would recommend the 41, since parts are available from the factory, as well as factory service should you ever need it. The Victor is a great gun, and would also meet your needs but finding magazines that are 100 percent reliable is somewhat difficult. You might want to swing on over to Rimfire Central for additional info on any of the guns you are considering.
http://rimfirecentral.com/forums/

[swifty]

Hi Coltfan:
Thanks for your feedback and the suggestion to go to rimfire central.
It looks like a web site that can really help me.
Which ultradot unit are you considering?

[coltfan]

It appears to be a new Ultradot. If you go to the Ultradot web site, you will see that they have two main distributors, Ultradot West and one other guy in Maine. I was looking over the Maine web site and if I remember correctly it is the very last one pictured. Like I said it has interchangable dots in 2, 4, 6, and 8 moa dots. Most other models have larger dots for hunting. Another plus is that this guy appears to cater to bullseye shooters, you may find some other "needs" on his site.

[B_Koes]

Swifty - I didn't see mention of the specific type of shooting that you're buying for.  From the sounds of it you are looking at bullseye type of stuff so I'll procede with that notion.

First the pistol, you will find that most any of the target pistols are accurate enough for the bullseye game (standard criteria of being able to shoot a 10 shot 1" group @ 50 yds and therefore hold the 10 ring on slow fire targets).  Functioning is important so it would probably be best to find yourself a good gunsmith to help with functioning as I know of High Standards, S&W 41's & Pardinis that have as much trouble as Rugers and Brownings.  With practice you will learn what ammo your gun likes and how to clean (or not to clean) to aid in reliability.  At this point I would say buy whatever you have the most confidence in and what feels best to your hand because the mental game is more than half the battle.

As for sights, stop looking and buy yourself an Ultradot.  They are wonderfully reliable and have rock solid customer support.

[charlesshort45]

I'll put my two cents in here. I coached the Purdue University team for a number of years, and have built and maintained .22 autopistols forever. I would advise you buying the best you can get and not wasting your time on Rugers, Buckmarks, and other field guns that you will upgrade from in short order anyway.

If you are buying a .22 Auto for conventional pistol 900 matches, look at the Smith 41 with the 5 1/2" barrel or the Marvel .22 conversion unit for the .45 frame. Buy them new. The current production guns from Smith are the best they have ever been, are drilled and tapped, and are very reliable. You may have to get a lighter spring for standard velocity ammo, as Smith ships a slightly heavy spring. This can cause failures to feed. Look at grips from Nill, Vitarbo, or Morini. Remember, Bill Blankenship won five national titles with a box-stock 41 and that ain't hay.

The Marvel is very reliable and dead accurate with any decent ammo, by which I mean Eley, Lapua, SK Jagd, or RWS. The fact that it will get you acclimated to a .45 drawbar trigger doesn't hurt when you want to put the .45 top back on for the rest of the 2700 either. I think it's the best .22 to come along in twenty years.

The other pistol you should consider is the Walther GSP Expert which just the nicest package going. I won two state championships with the 41 and two with the GSP, but I think the GSP is by far easier to shoot. If you want to shoot 900's and International, it's the way to go.

If you have to shoot optics, buy a 1" Ultradot and be done with it. Best you can get for bullseye. Mount it as low as possible and pack spare batteries.

Above are my opinions earned in coaching and competition, and are not an endorsement by Purdue University of any product or service. I am not a faculty or staff member of said institution, but wish them all the best in thumping thier competition.

[swifty]

Hi charlesshort45-
your advice has been invaluable .
Questions. Re 22 S&W model 41
What is the legal limit for trigger pull weight.
Which rings for the ultradot sight?
I beleive the ultradot's smallest dot is 3 MOA; is that the model your recommend?

RE: The 45 caliber ACP which firearm do you recommend for Bullseye
shooting? What's the trigger weight limit ?
I like to load my own.I use a Dillon 550B.
Do you have any suggestions on powder charges and bullets for the 45?
Thanks again for all your help.

[charlesshort45]

IIRC, legal weight is 2.5 pounds (1000 g) for international Standard Pistol and is also legal for NRA Conventional. Smith service center does a nice job on setting up 41s for bullseye, if you tell them that will be all the gun is used for, and it won't cost a lot to do it.

Get the smallest dot you can get on the Ultradot. I have mounted Ultradots with a variety of rings, but I try to get good quality lightweight aluminum rings that allow for a very low mount. Lighter than steel, but both Leupold and Burris make nice steel rings in weaver-type low configurations if that is your preference.

I still shoot irons, but I have a Marvel Conversion on a Colt frame that shoots great with an Ultradot. Shot 865-38 with it last night here at the house, and it's only the ninth practice 900 I have fired with it. Great potential!

I am actually not the best person to ask about .45's, because most of my shooting has been International rules shooting where .45s aren't legal. However, I have a Nygord heavyslide (wad gun)and a Clark ball gun that i shoot from time to time. They were both built on 70 Colts.I'd save my money, shoot a lot of .22 900s, and then ask Clark or Nygord what you need in a .45. Good long-term support for their products and still a good value. Plus the guns will put you on the stand at Perry if you use them well.

I shoot Star 185 gr SWCHP and Bull-x 200 gr SWC, use VV N310 and Federal primers. Use published data and you'll do great.

Finally, buy a rule book for Conventional Pistol and get familiar with it, before you buy stuff you don't need and may be illegal. It is a pretty cheap investment that will save you a lot of time and trouble.

Best, CES

[rockbilly]

I was a member of the pistol team at several different bases while I was in the Air Force.  I fired many different brands of .22s, but my favorite is still the S&W model 41.  I was issued one while at England AFB, La back in the early 60s, I must have put ten thousand rounds through that gun and never had a problem of any kind.  I later purchased one, and have put many round through it with no malfunctions.  These old eyes don't function well enough to compete any more, but I still enjoy plinking with the grandkids.

I don't think you can go wrong with the Smith.

This piece of advice is to anyone who intends to pop caps of  :cb2: any caliber, when you invest in the gun, also invest in a quality set of ear muffs too.  I recommend using plugs and muffs.  If you do, maybe you can still hear when you get my age.

[swifty]

Hi Folks: You all have been a great help and I have learned more that I thought I would share with you.
1.The 5 1/2 barrel on the S&W model 41 is heaver than the 7 inch barrel.
    competitors in the Bullseye shooting buy the 7 inch and have it cut off
    to 5 1/2 inches which will reduce the weight by 4 1/2 onces. In  a        competition a shooter might be shooting for 3 hours , so fatigue is a very real issue. A wealth of information regarding
    pistol matches, competition equipment is available from;The  
    Encyclopedia of Bullseye Pistol Go to google and type this
    heading. It will link you to equiptment,training,rules and NRA links.
 2.The Kimber target 22 requires high velocity ammo which you really
    don't need to group your shots in the 10 ring.
3.  Most of the shooters that use optics use ultradot scopes.
4.  The Marvel conversion kits seem to be the best for accuracy. Slip this
     $ 500 kit on your accurized 45 semiautomatic match grade handgun
     and you have a match grade 22.

[Chris]

Swifty:

I've spent a lot of time at the range during the last three years, honing my skills with a .22 pistol.  Started out with a plain-jane Ruger, then upgraded to a Ruger slab-side.  After a while, I poured another $250 into the slab-side...fitted it with most of the bells and whistles you can get for a Ruger, including an UltraDot.  I was real happy with the set-up...but it got heavy after a while and I seemed to peak.

I eventually shopped around and settled on a Pardini SP.  I fitted it with a ADCO site and I am VERY pleased with the results so far.  I am shooting much tighter groups although I am far from a serious competitor.  The only down-side of the Pardini is that it is picky with the ammo.  But frankly, once I changed to Wolfe ammo, the feeding problems have completely disappeared.  I seriously considered the S&W 41 (so many good reports out there), but I found most of the good shooters around were all shooting Pardini's or Hammerli's.  The Pardini "felt" better and that's what I went with...so far, so good.

Good luck in your search....let us know what you end up with and how it shoots!

Be Safe!  ...Chris    

[charlesshort45]

Chris, I completely spaced the Pardini SP when I was posting above and totally agree: its a great gun. It was a difficult pick between it and the Walther GSP, but I chose the GSP because I could put a .32WC top on it.

I think the Ruger Mark I and II pistols were great, affordable guns in their day, but they have been eclipsed by better choices for competition.