Author Topic: Need help with a repoduction Sharps (Read 2484 times)

Bis · « **on:** April 20, 2004, 03:05:04 PM »

I am trying to figure out how strong my Sharps is for reloading and to see if parts are still available for it.
I have no idea why I bought this gun 20 plus years ago, since I collect original U.S. Mil. weapons except that it just looked so neat. I have put about 30 rounds of factory ammo ( 45/70 ) thru it over the years, but since moving to East Texas from S. Calif. I can now go out in my back yard and blast away, and at $25 a box I need to learn how to reload.
The weapon is 45/70 with a 28 inch X 1 inch hex barrel. It is marked on the top flat with large letters "Old Reliable" and then in small letters "U.S. SHARPS RIFLE CO. MERIDEN CONN.". The next flat ( toward the hammer) says " SILE NEW YORK,N.Y.". The next flat says "IAB MARCHENO MADE IN ITALY". It has a modern stile adjustable flip up rear sight and a bead front sight. The action, hammer and trigger guard have heavy engraving. Any ideas about it???
I am going to try my luck at reloading the 45/70 and will probably stick to Trapdoor loads but would like to know if I can push it up a little. I would like to try my luck taking some White tailed deer with it. I have purchased Rem 300 grain JHP bullets and some IMR 3031 powder, any suggestions for loads??
Thanks for any and all help.

Ken

GuntherII · « **Reply #1 on:** April 21, 2004, 04:26:50 AM »

Best to keep it under 25,000. It'll do anything you want at that pressure.

As for parts

vtigunparts.com

Bis · « **Reply #2 on:** April 21, 2004, 01:29:00 PM »

GuntherII
Thanks for the reply.
Ken

Cottonwood · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2004, 06:03:05 PM »

Biz

I have the same Sharps rifle, which I reamed up from the 45-70 to 45-90 and your shoulder will give out before the gun does.

The only thing I'm changing on mine is the barrel, which I'm ordering a Badger barrel for it. :grin:

Bis · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2004, 05:43:33 PM »

Montanan

Can I bug you with a bunch of questions?

I am going to try my luck at reloading and have looked thru some reload manuals. They all seem to list 45/70's into 3 classes. Trapdoor, lever action and Ruger. I presume since you have taken a 45/70 to a 45/90 that this gun will handle at least the lever action loads?

I have purchased some Rem 300 grain bullets ( I am hoping that the lighter bullets will help to keep my shoulder attached to my body :-) ). I am trying IMR 3031 powder. Any ideas for start and max loads. I would like to try using this on White Tailed deer.

Did you purchase the gun new? I found mine at the Great Western Gun Show in Pomona Calif. before the wise legislators shut it down ( I have not seen any difference in crime since then) for about $250 ( in the 1980's). It was so clean and was just beautiful to look at.

I still have the open sights and a vernier sight on the tang. The open sights are set for about 50 yards and the vernier sights are set at 150. This great except the vernier sight is about 2.5 inches long and when laying down so I can us the open sight, I get nice bruise on my cheek, is the hole pattern for the vernier sight some what standard so I can get a shorter sight?

Do you know if the Sharps Rifle Co. is still in business?

Thanks for all the help.

Ken

zrifleman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2004, 08:33:56 PM »

Bis-Best advice was already given-keep your loads limited to 25,000 PSI for any original Sharps or any you are in doubt about. In most cases that is the mid-range loading data in the Lyman cast lead reloading book. The only Sharps Rifle companies in existence all manufacture "reproductions". C Sharps, Shiloh, Axtell, and a couple of others are high quality. Pedersoli is the next best. Sile, Pedretti, Armi San Marco, near the bottom. You get what you pay for. 405 gr bullets at 1200 fps will kill any thing on the north American continent. If you find anything they won't kill, run like hell!

Bis · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2004, 01:18:51 PM »

ZRIFLEMAN

Thanks for the reply, since I am getting to old to run, I guess I better make the first shot count :-) .

I take it the 405 grain is an all around better hunting bullet( I bought some 300 grain jacketed bullets thinking that recoil would be less). Also, why do most people use cast bullets for the 45/70 instead of jacketed?

zrifleman · « **Reply #7 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:32:27 AM »

Bis-most sharps reproductions shoot well made cast bullets as good as jacketed bullets. Part of the fun of owning them is making the bullets and working up the loads. Since most repro-rifles in 45-70 use a 1-20 or 1-18 twist , they lend themselves better to the heavier bullets 400-500 gr range, with velocity in the 1200-1400 fps range being optimum. Yesterday at the range I put 8 out of 10 shots in a ragged hole at 100yds with 520 gr cast bullets with my 45-90 sharps.

Bis · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2004, 11:28:19 AM »

Zrifleman- 8 out of 10 producing one hole is impressive!

I have cast minie balls for years for my muzzle loader, but that requires pure lead so the base can expand into the rifling. For the 45/70 don't you need hardened lead and something called a gas check (I presume that is a cup attached to the base of the bullet)? Can you use wheel weights?

zrifleman · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2004, 08:00:16 PM »

bis-you don't "need" gas checks for mid range loads in 45-70. I use them just because some of my better molds cast g.c. bullets and I don't like cleaning lead out of the barrel. Flat base bullets cast from wheel weights or a combination of WW and pure lead sized .001 over groove dia. should work just fine. One of my molds, a Saeco 540 gr flat base--consistently produces bullets that shoot tight groups at 200 yds in a variety of rifles. The important thing is--buy a good mold that will cast, a good ,well designed bullet that fits your rifle.

Bis · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:17:31 PM »

Zrifleman-Without going thru all the expense of dies and sizers ect. do you have any suggestions for a manufacture of cast bullets? At some point in time I will probably buy all the good stuff, but since I am just starting out in reloading and have spent a bundle , at least in the eyes of my financial advisor ( my wife :-) ). I noticed in the catalogs that cast bullets are .001 larger dia. than jacketed bullets, why is that? Also how do cast bullets hold up when shooting deer?

Thanks for taking all the time to answer all of my questions.

GuntherII · « **Reply #11 on:** April 26, 2004, 05:55:40 AM »

Although I've yet to cast for the .45 rifle I might be able to shed a bit of light. In the sidearms and rifles I have cast for .001 seems to work better than anything else with the exception of one particular revolver that had huge chamber mouths. That needed to be about .002 over the chamber and nearly .004 over bore diameter. Even then once in awhile I'd get a huge flyer and not always on the same chamber. In most cases I've cast with wheelweight mixed with some tin and pure lead depending on the application. I do the lazy man's heat treating by just dropping from the mold into water with a decent lube, LBT Blue, home mix of vaseline, paraffin and case lube, it holds up well to 1400 fps or so without gaschecks. I hate gaschecks for the most part because they require extra work and that time is better used killing rocks I figure. As how they hold up on deer. Not sure. Never seen one after shooting a deer from any angle, not even stem to stern and that's with a 250 grain .44. I'd reckon that in a .45 rifle and a 400+ grain bullet it'd more than likely shoot through a bison from most any direction.

zrifleman · « **Reply #12 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:01:07 AM »

Bis--Try to pick up a used lubrisizer--all you need with it is a .457 die and top punch. Then you are in business for life. You can start with an inexpensive Lee mold until you can afford a better one. If you like casting bullets you probably will end up with a collection of molds and sizer dies. That's what gun shows are for. Wheel weights are a cheap source of good lead alloy. Boxes of 500 cast bullets already lubed and sized can easily be had at local gun shops and gun shows. A lot of reproductions have a true groove diameter of .456. The Lyman book recommends .457-.458 dia. The reason you go .001 over is to seal the bore--if it's undersized gas blows by and you end up leading the barrel. Most commercial cast bullest are cast too hard for good expansion on deer--better to cast your own. On deer they produce a large hole with very little hydrostatic shock. My experience has been with paper patch bullets. Results for most hunters are generally excellent with well placed shots

Bis · « **Reply #13 on:** April 26, 2004, 04:36:28 PM »

Zrifleman- I hate to bother you with more dumb questions, but I am a little confused.
I am sitting here looking at a Lee catalog. They list molds in 457 and 459 dia for about $20, how do I tell what dia. I need. Do I mic. the barrel and then how tight should it be. But then I look at the "lube and sizing kit" and the bullets come out at .457 so does it matter what size bullet mold I get if they all come out at .457? Also , I presume that my new "classic press" will handle the sizing.
Also I noticed that none of the molds mention a gass checks. How important are they?
As to gun shows, around here they are a little weak. I went to the local one ( 50 miles one way) a year ago. They had prices for a beat 03A3 that you would think you were buying for a museum. I guess I am just spoiled by the gun shows in L.A. or at the least the ones they use to have. The same goes for gun shops ( we are out in the boon docks), the closest one is 50 miles one way, most of us rely on Wal-Mart.
Thank you for all the info, I really appreciate it.

PS I take it from your post that you work nights or have a hard time sleeping :-)

zrifleman · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2004, 10:49:01 AM »

Bis-Usually molds that say .457 are designed to cast bullets with Lyman alloy #2 or its equivalent--harder lead alloys that shrink less when they cool in the mold. Molds marked .459 cast a slightly larger bullet allowing for additional shrinkage of pure lead or very soft lead alloys. The lubrisizer is different than reloading press--the dies it uses are specifically for it. Gas checks help to reduce leading almost completely and protect the base of the bullet. You need the above to properly install gaschecks. Running cast bullets thru a lubrisizer lubes them uniformly, also sizes them uniformly. Like a lot of other reloaders--I avoided casting rifle and pistol bullets for almost 20 yrs. Now I mostly shoot my own cast bullets, I shoot more and for less money--by the way I also shoot better.

Bis · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2004, 01:21:29 PM »

Thanks to everyone that replied, just sorry it took so long to get back to to you all, have been unable to get the computer working. I am going to try the 300 grain jacked bullets 1. to see if I can reload properly (first time at reloading) and 2. because I have a box of them. Then try to buy some cast bullets and see how they do before I go thru the expense of dies,sizers, ect. It would be nice if the bullet manufactures would sell sample boxes of bullets so you did not have to to buy 100 rounds at a time and then find out that they did not work. Thanks again

jon f · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2004, 02:36:01 PM »

Hi,
I took my 45/70 barrel off and fitted a 50/70 shilo barrel.
Screwed right in... Would'nt trade it for the world :-)
Marcheno's are very well made.
Regards Jon...

marlinman93 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2004, 03:19:44 PM »

Bis,
I own and shoot 7 different .45-70 single shot rifles. Several original Ballards, a Hepburn, Ruger #1, and a couple of very old Marlin lever actions. I shoot cast in all of them, and use a number of different loads, depending on what I'm doing with a particular gun.
I use an old Ideal mold that casts a 420 gr. bullet which seems to work well in all of them. I also have one of the inexpensive Lee tumble lube design bullet molds that casts a 360 gr. bullet, which is lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. Surprisingly, this has given some of my best groups to date.
When buying bullets, I have purchased some Meister brand hard cast bullets from Midway, and although they are pretty reasonably priced, they give good accuracy, and make decent hunting rounds, with little or no leading when pushed up to 1500-1600 fps. I took my deer last year with a 1870's Ballard #4 in .45-70, using the Meister bullets, and expansion was adequate, even on a small boned animal like deer. I think it would hold together well, even on elk, if used for them.

Bis · « **Reply #18 on:** May 24, 2004, 03:32:34 PM »

Jon- I know nothing about the quality of these guns other than they look great. Are they strong enough to take loads higher than the trapdoor loads? I would probably never try them but it would be nice to know.
The thought of a 50/70 sounds really inviting. I have an original military rolling block but don't want to screw it up. How hard was it to change and what kind of money are we talking about?

I didn't think they would let you guys "down under" have such big guns :-)

I hooked up with a bunch of Australian Air Force guys in Nam and had a great time or so they tell me :grin:

Thanks for the reply
Ken

Bis · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2004, 04:13:46 PM »

Marlinman93- Do you get much leading with the hard cast bullets? Also, what kind of powder are you using, I have bought IMR 3031. I have not reloaded any rounds (I am working on my 243 first) for my 45/70 yet but have bought all the dies and am gathering info. I did buy a box of 300 grain Rem. JHP's which may have been a mistake

marlinman93 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2004, 02:35:47 PM »

I use Unique mostly, and also Red Dot. My loads are mild, in the 1350-1500 range, and I see little or no leading with the Meister hard cast.
I have also used 3031 in the past, and it is an excellent choice for cast or jacketed bullets. With a 300 gr. jacketed I used 48 grs of 3031, which is not harsh recoil, but will definitely bring down the game. I used 45 grs of 3031 with my 360 gr cast lead. The 300 grainers you bought should do OK, if your twist rate isn't too fast. They work best with a twist of 1-24 to 1-36, but I've used them in my Ballard #4 with 1-18" Badger barrel, and they shoot well. The key is to not try to push a light bullet too fast, in a barrel with a fast twist.
Hope this helps.

Bis · « **Reply #21 on:** May 25, 2004, 03:59:34 PM »

Marlinman93- thanks for the reply- I will have to check the twist rate in my Sharps. I am battling the twist rate problem with my H&R 243 at the moment, they (the factory) say all their rifles in 243 are 1/ 10 I measure 1/12 and 100 grain bullets go thru the target side ways. Anyway, thanks again, by the way do you crimp your rounds and do you find cast bullets more accurate?

sureshot2040 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 28, 2004, 03:21:25 AM »

bis,
order you some rem. jsp 405 grain bullets from cabela's ( 14.95 per 100 )
load them with 38.5 grains of imr3031 with either a 210 or a 215 federal primer. if your gun wont shoot that accurately then get rid of it.
me and my shooting buddies use that load to bust 12 inch balloons at 400 yards using tang sights. we do so in three different types of gun. buffalo classic, marlin 1895, and a sharps repro. i have never seen any gun not shoot that load well.
sureshot

DICK · « **Reply #23 on:** May 28, 2004, 07:17:40 AM »

Took the old .45-70 Sharps P-dog hunting. Had the chance to take some mid-range shots out to 500 yards. Now a P-dog aint the sharpest pencil in the box and will let you bang away at them for numberous shots before they will move. I learn alot about range and windage that day. Used 405 hard cast pushed by 41.6 grs of Varget, had undurned powder left over in the barrel, still working on this load. It will group 2 1/2 to 3 inch at 100 yards. It is neater than hell to shoot, lower the gun and then see where ya hit.

Bis · « **Reply #24 on:** May 30, 2004, 12:30:57 PM »

Sureshot2040- Thanks for the reply, how come nobody seems to shoot the lighter weight bullets? In fact most people seem to shoot cast bullets in the 400 grain plus size. Isn't the recoil a lot higher with the heaver bullets?

Bis · « **Reply #25 on:** May 30, 2004, 12:40:48 PM »

Dick- Where did you find P-dogs around Houston? I am about 100 miles north of you and haven't seen a one. I did just get back from Odessa and that area looks like it might have potential :-) .

DICK · « **Reply #26 on:** May 30, 2004, 07:27:27 PM »

Hey Bis,
I just got back from a P-Dog Shoot @ Hobbs NM. Those folks have P-Dog coming out of their ears.

Bis · « **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2004, 04:05:12 AM »

Dick

New Mexico is a bit of a drive for the little critters isn't :-) ? When you hit a prairie dog with a 45/70, is there anything left ?

DICK · « **Reply #28 on:** May 31, 2004, 06:34:59 AM »

Hey Bis
The P-dog shoot in Hobbs was a members hunt, Eight of us got together for the shoot. It was a chance to meet up with so good folks. I would and plan on doing it again.
When you hit in the middle of a group of 4 or 5 of these little buggers just standing around and when the dust and rocks settled, it was just peaces of parts left. I shot about 100 rounds of .45-70 in couple hours and paid for on the next day, had to go to the lite touch of a .22 hornet to finish out the shoot.
In the two shoot, the eight of us most likely done in about couple of thousand of the buggers and numberous jackrabbits.

Bis · « **Reply #29 on:** May 31, 2004, 10:09:55 AM »

Hi Dick

Sounds like a good time, maybe you should consider lighter bullets and save the arm :-) . Better get going , the fish in my lake are calling me saying they want to be caught :grin: