Understanding Mauser Proof Marks

[Runs with Scissors]

I just purchased a very nice M96 Swedish Mauser and wish to better understand the armorer's markings on the brass medallion in the stock.
My Mauser is marked with the date 1900 and was manufactured in Oberndorf and has the s/n 39XXX
The medallion is struck above the number 2 in two places.
The bore looks incredible for a rifle of it's age.
And, yes, it shoots quite well.

Thanks in advance.

Bill

[S.S.]

Those disks were used by the Armory to place info about the Rifle itself.
The rifles were inspected every now and then and the bore wear was
recorded on that disk. I have a document somewhere on how to
Decypher what all the numbers mean, but I'll have to scrounge it up.

[Mikey]

Runs With Scissors:  As I understand the markings, a 1 means perfect or near perfect bore with little or no chamber/throat erosion; a 2 means there is some, and a 3 means the next step is a rebarrel - by Swedish military standards.  

Savage T has a M96 that had a 3 marking and his shoots great.  I have a Ljungman with a 3 marking and I think it's a tackdriver.  My sporterized M38 gives me snake-eyes at 150 yds.  

I think the markings may indicate the number of thousands of wear the barrel/chamber/throat may have suffered over time, so if the barrel starts out at a .264 bore and yours measures .266, although it may shoot fine for your purposes, that might mean it's a '3' marking and after a certain period of time they would have rebarrelled it.  I think.  

I think I also hope someone has some more specific information about this.  We had a good post, and I think it was from either S. Sumner or Savage T, maybe a year or so ago, and it addressed the issue well.  You might possibly find it if you cruise on down through all the pages on this Mil-Surp forum.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Runs with Scissors]

Thanks for the response guys.
My gun club holds monthly Military Bolt Action Bench Rest competition. That's why I picked up my Swede.
I shot over 75 rounds through mine with milsurp ammo yesterday and it pretty much kicked my shoulder into next week. I have no idea how heavy the ammo was, but I hope to find a good handload for 100 to 120 grain bullets. All I need is accuracy because we punch holes in paper at 100 meters. Any suggestions?

Bill

[His lordship.]

Runs with Scissors...I saw your hometown as Oklahoma City, as I recall there was an article on your gun club (yours or your neighbors) shooting the bolt action open sited rifles in some serious accuracy competitions a few years ago.  I think it was in the American Rifleman.  Is this you and your members that I read of?  If so, you guys have my respect as I was impressed with the discipline of your hobby.

I try to squeeze the accuracy out of my open sited older military bolt actions, but not nearly as detailed and astute as you people take it.  

[Runs with Scissors]

That's us (Tri-City Gun Club).
So far, we have held the trophy for 4 of its 5 years.
The fierce competition comes from the club in Tulsa. Those boys spend a lot more on their rifles than we do, but look who has the trophy :toast:
Most of our rifles are Moisen Nagants. There are a few 8mm Mausers as well as '03 Springfields.
To really be good on the range you need to fire at least a couple hundred rounds a month. The competition itself is five strings of 10 rounds.
My new Swede is a lot better than the 8mm, but It still beats me up.
That's why I'm looking into a lighter handload.
Yesterday, I shot consistant 5" groups with steel cored milsup ammo that was likely 30 years old (it came with the gun). That's about as bad as one would expect. I should be able to reduce the size of my groups by 2" with the right handloads. I usually shoot in the mid to high 90's. I hope I get better with my Swede.

Thanks for the compliment.
I just thought we were a bunch of old fools.

Bill

[1911crazy]

I'm a little late here but I have an article on the stock discs i found at;
http://www.rebooty.com/~dutchman/disc.html

Mikey is right the #3 bores shoot awesome I just think the swede's were too fussy in rating the conditions on their bores.  This site also says about discs not being marked "0" not at all which i do have one rifle marked this way it means the barrel is in new condition.  So we have number "0" no marking at all, "1", "2" & "3" on the bore ratings.  Now the  "Torped Overslag" means how much error there is at 100meter with the 139gr. m41 bullet.   One streck means .1m above the point of aim at 100meters. I'm very impressed with the swedish quality and would never be afraid to buy a swede with "3" bore marking if the bore isn't pitted I buy any swede no matter what.  The rework stamp on the underside of the  pistol grip area of the stock near the trigger guard means how many times it was pulled off the line and repaired too.  I would never be afraid of it having too many repairs either because it may be a better rifle due to its being repaired so many times too.  The swedish steel that these guns are made from is one of the best quality steels made in the world too.

Trust me the 6.5 swede's and the 7mm mausers are cake to shoot after I've been shooting 30-06's and 338win.mags for most of my life.  Somedays after shooting my 338 i pickup my shoulder on the way home from the range.  But I never had to look for a wounded blackbear either they seem to drop right where I shot them for some reason.  But i never met a swede I didn't like!!!!! Or didn't buy if it was priced right you never can have too many swede's!!!!!

[Runs with Scissors]

Thanks Big Bill.
Very interesting information.
The last time my Swede was marked it got a 2 on both the bore and rust.

Bill

[savageT]

Thanks Big Bill.
Very interesting information.
The last time my Swede was marked it got a 2 on both the bore and rust.

Bill

Hey Runs...!
This is Jim. I have a model 38 and I believe you have a M96 so check out that disc info for your model disc that Big Bill sent you and get back to us on what spacifically your bore is like.

[savageT]

BTW.......Those are NOT the proof marks you are referring to.  Those are strickly the armours disc markings.  The proof marks are found as crowns both in the stock and on every blessed piece including the bands.

Jim

[Runs with Scissors]

I also think I have a M96.
However, it is not the long rifle. My barrel measures 23 & 1/4" from the reciever. The rifle's LOA is 44". The front sight base is marked with a "-1", however the sight blade itself has been modified to put the point of aim at 100 meters.
All parts of the bolt, reciever, magazine plate and front barrel band are marked with the same s/n. The buttplate and sling band (swivel at the bottom) are different.
The top of the reciever, just fwd. of the bolt is marked " Waffenfabrik Mauser Oberndorf A/N 1900".
There are no markings near the trigger guard except the s/n which is on the magazine plate. All markings are crisp and clear, and I'd say my finish is 95% on everything but the rings. They are probably 80%. The rear sight is micrometer with the markings "Metallverken Vasteras  SV. Pat. 90944" There is also a logo of a Viking sailing ship on it.
The brass disc is struck above the numeral 2 on the 6.51 radius. The numeral 3 is struck above the Str wedge.
My barrel and bolt appear almost new. The only area I can see any evidence of rust is near the loading ramp just outside of the chamber.
There is no pitting-just a light browning in color.
I greatly appreciate your interest in helping me identify this rifle.

Thanks.

Bill

[savageT]

Bill,
I believe you may have an M96/38....those were the shortened version carbines that were modified before the M38's were made in the 40's.  Everything that I have seen on M38's were Husqvarna Mfg. and the M96/38 were Oberdorfs.

Jim

[1911crazy]

I see you have the Mertallverkin micrometer rear site.  My question is which one do you have?  I have two that have different increments one starts out at 100meters being "0" and goes to 600 meters in 50 meter increments.  The other starts out at 200 meters being "0" and goes to 600meters in 50 meter increments.                           BigBill

I picked these up from Samco Global Arms and I haven't put them on yet I wanted to get some while there still available because there part of the swede mauser history too.

BTW I have all three manufacturers in the swede mauser short carbines.
I have a M96/38 Carl Gustaf 1913, M96/38 Oberndorf 1900 & M38 Husqvarna 1942.  I also picked up a few M96's too that i found at gun shows cheap which isn't that often.  I did get one M96 CG from Samco Global Arms a $229 special select w/turned down bolt. But what I'm seeing at gun shows lately are really priced high now so cheap ones now are few are far between..

[Runs with Scissors]

Big Bill.

Mine starts at 200 meters.
The front blade on my rifle has been modified for 100 meters.

All the information and interest you guys shared is greatly appreciated.
You guys know a whole lot more about the swedes than I do.
I've always regarded them as very fine military rifles that are capable of exceptional accuracy.

I paid $350 for my rifle. I got it from another gun club member who had two of them. He started letting me shoot it a few months ago and I got hooked. It was hard to go back to the Moisen Nagant.I do plan to get my money back through competition :wink:

Bill

[1911crazy]

Mikey and S.Sumner here talked about swede mausers and i had to get one.  After owning, restoring  and collecting husqvarna vintage dirtbikes from the years '72 thru '86 and using their chainsaws for many years I had to try them too.  The swedish steels are the best out of my 25 vintage bikes we never had a cracked or broken frame due to poor workmanship or bad chromemoly steel  yes the swedish bike frames were made out of chromemoly steel.  These were the fastest dirtbikes on the planet  even the old ones were fast and did 100mph with no problem. I had a '78 CR390 that would just rip the powerband was so wide the back tire would light up in any gear even 6th gear wheelies were possible too just by wicking it. I lost 40lbs in 3 months riding it and what a workout it was doing 80 to 90mph down the straights thru the woods.  I would make three passes in the woods about 25 miles then take it home i was beat. The new MX dirtbikes with all the valves top out at 70mph. I had a new '99 TE610e dual sport (husky/cagiva)that i did 120mph on the highway here.  I could understand why Malcom Smith was so fast on husqvarna's. Many young guys tried to catch me on the husky's but just didn't understand why they couldn't. Of course when my health went bad so did my off road days too.  And their chainsaws I have plenty of blue ribbons and trophies from winning cutting competions at fairs here years ago when i was loggin. But it sure pushed me a little more besides the guys here to try a swede mauser.  I'm still shooting my first CG M96 the accuracy is awesome.   All the swedish/ husqvarna  products were awesome!!!!                     BigBill

So anything that has that swedish crown on it you can bet you have the best quality.

[Runs with Scissors]

Hey Big Bill......

Do you still ride? At 50 years old, my dirt bike days are over. I do have  a 1200 Sportster, a Kawasaki W650 and a Monkey Bike. The W and Sportster see about 5k each year. Both will do the ton-the W can hit 120mph if I want to have a peek at Heaven.
I had a 1968 BSA 441 Victor until a few years ago. I also has a Hodaka Kombat Wombat that died in short order. The BSA served me well and had accumulated 38k when I sold it. Other than chains and sprockets, I did nothing but ride the hell out of it. Of course, it had a Lucas (prince of darkness) electrical system so I seldom rode it at night.
My hobbies have changed very little as I've aged. Still riding bikes, shooting and hunting, but my sailboats have morphed to RC models.
I lost another friend and will attend his memorial this evening. Until then I plan to mow the yard and take one of the boats to the lake.
Sailing is very relaxing to me and is good for my soul.
I'll be trying out some better ammo through the swede next week. I've got to get 10 holes in a 3" circle by the third week of May so the swede and I can make a good first showing.

Bill

[savageT]

Hey Bill,
I experienced an accuracy problem with my Swede until I cleaned, and cleaned, and cleaned some more.  Seems like the bore was really loaded with copper fouling and I'm still not convinced I've got it out yet after using a ton of patches and lots of copper solvent!  I believe one of those electronic home-made de-plater rods using household ammonia and two C batteries is the answer.  Might be worth checking yours out.

Jim

[Runs with Scissors]

Jim.

I soaked a strip of gause in copper cleaner then threaded it through my barrel and let it soak overnight. The next day I used a bronze brush followed by tons of patches. It looks clean, but I won't really know until I fire it again.
Do you think soft lapping the bore with Flitz is a good idea?

Bill

[savageT]

Bill,
To be honest, I have some J-B Bore Cleaning Compound along with Kroil that I purchased from Brownell's but have never used them.  I guess it wouldn't hurt.  How can you tell if you have copper in the bore if you are using a bronze brush?  I try to use a plastic jag and steel cleaning rod to eliminate the presence of any copper.  Good Luck and let us know what you decide.  If you want to try the electronic rod, do a search for the schematic for one on Google.

Jim

[Runs with Scissors]

Jim.

You really can't tell when you use copper cleaner and a bronze brush until you start running patches through the bore. You just get gobs of that blue looking stuff.
I bet I ran 35 patches through mine and they still had a light gray color.
I would never even consider automotive valve compound. Flitz is nowhere near as gritty. It's sorta like toothpaste.
I'll do some more thinking before I go with the Flitz. So far I don't detect any tight or rough spots in the bore.
I think my accuracy will improve with better ammo. I have some dies on order and will sort out some handloads in the future.
The next time I go to the range I'll shoot a couple of boxes of S&B JHP's through it and see what happens. I shoot S&B .223/ 55 gr. JHP in the Encore and get sub 1/2" groups all day long. It's hard to reload when you can get factory accuracy that cheaply ($3.50 a box).

Bill

[1911crazy]

Hey Big Bill......

Do you still ride? At 50 years old, my dirt bike days are over. I do have  a 1200 Sportster, a Kawasaki W650 and a Monkey Bike. The W and Sportster see about 5k each year. Both will do the ton-the W can hit 120mph if I want to have a peek at Heaven.
I had a 1968 BSA 441 Victor until a few years ago. I also has a Hodaka Kombat Wombat that died in short order. The BSA served me well and had accumulated 38k when I sold it. Other than chains and sprockets, I did nothing but ride the hell out of it. Of course, it had a Lucas (prince of darkness) electrical system so I seldom rode it at night.
My hobbies have changed very little as I've aged. Still riding bikes, shooting and hunting, but my sailboats have morphed to RC models.
I lost another friend and will attend his memorial this evening. Until then I plan to mow the yard and take one of the boats to the lake.
Sailing is very relaxing to me and is good for my soul.
I'll be trying out some better ammo through the swede next week. I've got to get 10 holes in a 3" circle by the third week of May so the swede and I can make a good first showing.

Bill

My last good year of riding I put 15k on my suzuki 1200 bandit, 2,500 miles on my polaris quad, 2,000 miles on my dual sport 4 stroke, about 1,200 miles on my dual sport two stroke and i have no idea how many miles on the dirtbikes which we rode 3 times i week.  I even had one two stroke street legal with steel studs to ride in the snow and ice storms and rode off road all winter too. We (me and my son) were never home except to sleep.  I've had the bandit up to 150mph many times its awesome and so smooth too and it still has more to go.  Now the bandit is in the garage with 27k on it resting. Before the Bandit I had an 80 Suzuki GS750L and after that a Kawie KZ650 which was kind of boring to ride after the 750. I can only ride around town now if that because the pain is that bad now.   Me and the kid look at the ground speed on the streetbikes and realize how fast we really go on the dirtbikes.  The 1200 bandit just starts running at 90 since I retuned the detuned motor to where it was when it was a GSXR1100 motor. I've been hanging on to it to bore it bigger and put performance cams in it.  On the westcoast there's a guy who builds these motors and their beating the 1300 hayabusa with the 1200 bandits.  I've had fast cars but nothing is like being on a fast bike what a rush when we become one with a machine and take it to the edge and back to tell about it.  The only reason I'm still alive is my dirtbike experience it sure pays off to learn how to handle a bike in the woods before you get on the faster bikes on the blacktop.            BigBill

Towards the end of my dirtbike days I couldn't start them I had to roll them down a hill to pop start them this is right about when I gave them up my legs just went from bad to worse.  But i sure do miss flying thru the woods!!!!