Author Topic: Possible .45 patched paper mould (Read 2152 times)

Cat Whisperer · « **on:** April 26, 2004, 03:27:16 PM »

am posting this for Ed Barrett. It was originially on another Cast Bullets forum.

"I am checking to see if there is enough interest in a group buy of a 500 grain paper patched bullet mold from Lee. I have seen what paper patched bullets can do as far as accuracy and speed without leading and I am very happy with the results. I can even get them to feed perfectly in my gibbs 45-70. I did this with some loaned bullets from a friend and I am going to get a mold for myself. I thought if enough other casters would like to go in on a group buy we could get it done a lot cheaper and we could compare notes working up loads. Let me know what you think.
Ed Barrett AKA elbStJoeMO "

Let us know if there is interest - it's something I'd like to try.

We'd also like to have comments on design.

Thanks!

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #1 on:** April 27, 2004, 01:19:53 AM »

We have about 8 people interested so far. Would like to have about 20-25 to get to where Lee waves the setup fees.

What should the nose shape be?

Pointed, rounded, flat - how big in diameter?

What about the base -

Flat, rebated or tapered?

My only experience (successful though) was with 12ga slugs in smoothbore.

Love to have some comments from experience!

elbStJoeMO · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2004, 08:49:14 PM »

from the feed back here and at CB it seems that the choices see, to point to aprox. 400 grain, round nose with a metplate, flat base, .452 cast at 20 to 1. I would tend to the smooth rather than the Lee mini grove type sides, I guess I'm a traditionist. How does this sound for the next round of feed back?

Ok, if anyone that it interested would Email me at elb@cameron.net

Please put the word gun in the subject line. I have a spam blocker and anything with gun in the subject line will come through to me. So far it's kept the viagra ads to a minimum.

Ed Barrett
aka elbStJoeMO

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2004, 12:59:36 PM »

OK Here is the first cut at it.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/148226.jpg

It's 150k so I did not post it to display here because it's so wide.

I will remove this drawing when the design changes. If you want to track the changes, copy the jpg to your HDD.

It sometimes takes 12 to 20 versions to come to a final design. Shouldn't take that many with this one.

The weight isn't even figured here. I'll need to calculate the volume and adjust the length to achieve the desired weight - what ever is chosen. This one is in the ballpark of 400 grains - maybe.

Ed's the decision maker. I be the drafter. Comments invited.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2004, 03:05:20 PM »

I have not shot a PPB in my Marlin but have used them extensively in my Sharps and find that a .445 diameter works best for me. A .452 bullet patched must be sized which often tears the patch. Not sure about what others' experience might be so you may want to take a vote on as-cast diameter and I am shooting a 500 gr pure lead with duplex load of black powder so smokeless will be different.

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #5 on:** May 04, 2004, 01:59:43 AM »

Cat Whisperer,
Nose shape and diameter look fine. How about more weight, about 500 grains and possibly a rebated base to tuck the paper tail in. I had a chance to use some years ago with the rebated base and found they made the patching process much easier and neater. Thanks for the good work so far.

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #6 on:** May 04, 2004, 07:22:13 AM »

Well, I can't say as I'm interested since I don't have anything in .45.

However, I do paper-patch and while you're putting in the order maybe you could put a bug in Lee's ears. They seem to be pretty inventive. Maybe they could come up with a patch roller. Some gizmo that you could just feed a patch in, it would roll it around the bullet nice and snug, then all you'd have to do is give the tail a twist. Kinda like the tools the swagers use to roll in the grease-grooves.

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2004, 03:42:19 AM »

Black Jaque,
Did you ever see one of the old cigarette rolling machines they used to feed papers and loose tobacco into? Had a heavy fabric cradle that held the paper and tobacco and when you pulled the handle over it rolled you a tight smoke. Wonder if something like that would work. Change paper type and a bullet for the tarbacky and you might be in business.
Best

Rick Crabtree · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2004, 05:55:09 AM »

Wooldridge is right aabout.445" is the corrct diameter. .452 is WAY to large. The bullet should also taper .002-.004 to the beginning of the ogive.
Results with PPB will be MUCH better if at least one third of the bullet is up in the bore when the cartridge is chambered. I only seat my 500 grainers .250" in the case. Which put over 75% of the bullet up in the bore. With these loads I get 3" groups at 200 yards consist3ently and often they are sub MOA. All of this isw assuming you are going to use Black Powder.

SINGLETREE 45 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2004, 06:22:44 PM »

I agree Rick, I'm using a swaged bullet about the same as you describe. My bullet is .447 Dia. and is 515 gn. and 520 gn. I'm shooting a C. Sharps 45-100 & a 45-120 and getting very good results. :grin: :agree:

elbStJoeMO · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2004, 09:04:53 AM »

What type of paper are you using on these .445 bullets? What is the final diameter after patching?

Rick Crabtree · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2004, 11:12:43 AM »

At the base they are .452 affter patching from there they taper down to .448. This is patching with 25% and 100% cotton rag paper that is about .0023.

Castaway · « **Reply #12 on:** May 11, 2004, 09:34:59 AM »

Cat Whisperer, what's the latest on the design (shape and weight). I've been following the thread, but have stayed out of it since it seems to be a BP bullet. I'm still curious though.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #13 on:** May 11, 2004, 01:42:27 PM »

Quote from: Castaway

Cat Whisperer, what's the latest on the design (shape and weight). I've been following the thread, but have stayed out of it since it seems to be a BP bullet. I'm still curious though.

Castaway - by all means pitch in - the more conversations we have the more issues get raised - that clarifies the design principles.

I'm working on a revised drawing.

There is a problem with communications, as Ed's ISP has an overly effective filtering system that has been very successful in keeping my emails to him from getting through.

There are a lot of things that he & I need to discuss, as I view my role as that of drafter and his role as designer. With other folks that I've worked with there have been about 5 emails between us between posts, this irons out the direction of the design process. Haven't been able to do this yet.

Ed -

Are we looking at this being primarily for BP or smokeless?

Have there been other successful designs using the 'tumblelube' style of grooves vs. the conventional style?

What thicknesses of paper are we planning for?

GuntherII · « **Reply #14 on:** May 13, 2004, 06:31:12 AM »

I'd love to try that. I'd think the old Sharps long range design might be the place to start. I know I have a drawing of it somewhere. It I believe was .452 and weighed 540.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2004, 04:57:41 PM »

Here's an updated jpg of the boolet with the tumble lube grooves.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/157573.jpg

Castaway · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2004, 02:59:22 AM »

Cat Whisperer, why the lube grooves for a patched bullet?

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2004, 11:32:46 AM »

Quote from: Castaway

Cat Whisperer, why the lube grooves for a patched bullet?

I think the thinking on this is so that it can also be used for non-patched .452 diameter work (there are several folks interested in HEAVY slow boolets for pistol work in at least a couple of calibers that I can think of).

There is a lot of discussion going on about this design, but you have to follow about 3 or 4 of the cast bullet boards to get it all.

single shot 1 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2004, 07:26:50 PM »

Just thought I would put my thoughts out. Has anyone used the RCBS special order mould? It is a round nose with a flat nose. The cost would be more than the Lee, but they do produce a good bullet. You would have to get the special order catalog. It is a taper design. Back when I was using pp bullets I swaged a .452 dia. bullet and patched with 9lb onion skin paper. A smaller dia. in my Marlin resulted in leading. With a 9lb onion skin patch you will end up with .459 dia. These also worked very well in duplex loads. single shot 1 :-)

single shot 1 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2004, 07:28:53 PM »

Just thought I would put my thoughts out. Has anyone used the RCBS special order mould? It is a round nose with a flat nose. The cost would be more than the Lee, but they do produce a good bullet. You would have to get the special order catalog. It is a taper design. Back when I was using pp bullets I swaged a .452 dia. bullet and patched with 9lb onion skin paper. A smaller dia. in my Marlin resulted in leading. With a 9lb onion skin patch you will end up with .459 dia. These also worked very well in duplex loads. single shot 1 :-)

Rick Crabtree · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2004, 08:28:07 AM »

The RCBS bullet is too big in diameter in that it tapers very little. At least for successful Black powder shooting. The front third of the patch should be up in the barrel (rifling) There for it MUST be slightly less than BORE diameter. The base can be over bore diameter after patching as it is in the case and does not interfere with chambering. Most of the original Sharps paper patched bullets measured about .451-.452 at the base and tapered to under bore diameter at the front end of the patch.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2004, 08:50:09 AM »

Here's the third version. I decreased the radius of the ogive from 1.75 to 1.00" bringing up the junction of the ogive to the cylindrical portion. Kept nose radius and meplat the same. No change yet on taper - need decision.
Note the volume. If one of y'all who has the densities of the various flavors of alloys could post them, I'll put calculations into the next version.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/161035.jpg

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** June 02, 2004, 03:16:16 PM »

Almost done.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/168600.jpg

This shows the correct tumble lube grooves, 3 degree taper on the nose for easy drop out of mould and approximately 400gr in weight.

Fine tuning? Now is the time.

Tolerances need to be added. Lee promises to hold .003" range; so diameters need to be specified to design size and either +.003 or -.003 depending on what we want to see.

Ed - I think it's getting close to getting a head-count on who wants 'em.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #23 on:** June 05, 2004, 05:26:26 AM »

We're done with the desiging phase. Here's what he posted elsewhere:

This is the new topic for the ordering of the .45 paper patched rifle mold. The mold can also be used as a very heavy pistol bullet. The dimentions are set up for optimal smokeless powdwr use, but could be used in a blackpowder application with bore wiping between shoots. as a pistol bullet I think as a low speed heavy bullet in a rifle chambered for a .45 pistol cartridge it would be very interesting! In a revolver it would be a whole new set of testing fore several of the people on these boards. This will be a 6 cavity Lee mold without handles.

Please contact me at elbstjoemo@yahoo.com and I will get an order form out to you as soon as I get the final data from Lee.

Drawing of bullet done by TRK

Thanks to TRK for all his help

--------------------
Ed Barrett
AKA elbStJoeMO

elbStJoeMO · « **Reply #24 on:** June 10, 2004, 11:47:27 AM »

OK, here we go. I got word back from Lee today and got pricing from the post office.
Please print out the order form and send it to me.

Ed Barrett
2406 S. 15th St.
St. Joseph MO
64503

This is for a combo .45 paper patched and pistol bullet weighing Approx. 380 Grains
in a 6 cavity Lee mold. Price each with shipping in the USA is $42.00

Name__________________

address ___________________

____________________

____________________

Name used on forums ____________________

Number of molds _____________________

Amount enclosed ______________________

Comments

Cutoff date on checks will be 6/30/04
Thanks
Ed Barrett

--------------------
Ed Barrett
AKA elbStJoeMO