Author Topic: Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version  (Read 1284 times)

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Offline savageT

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« on: April 26, 2004, 03:54:55 PM »
I finally got around to trying my home-made Electronic Bore Cleaner tonight on my M38 Swede.  This particular version uses two "C" batteries and you place the Positive clip on the Barrel Sight and the Negative clip on the electrode rod.  I stood the carbine upright against the bench and sealed the muzzle with a teflon tape wrapped fired shell. Next I placed the rod down the barrel (using 3-4 small O-rings and electrical tape over the end of the rod to be checked to be certain I was electrically isolated from the barrel).  I checked with an ohm meter, poured in the household ammonia and clipped on the power.  I had wrapped the muzzle with duct tape and had to jiggle the rod up and down a few times to make certain the ammonia got all the way down the pipe and topped off with ammonia.

After one hour, I pulled out the rod and dumped the solution down the laundry sink.  The rod was coated with a black smudge and the ammonia was dark as well, with some bluing evident. I now started cleaning out the bore w/ Hoppe's #9 and was pulling out dirty brown patches.  I must have used at least 10 patches with the #9's.  Then I went to Shooter's Choice and a few more patches came out a little dirty, but NO blue stains!
I finished up with a couple dry patches and finally a few more Break Free CLP patches to oil up for storage......Have I truely got this pipe clean yet???  How 'bout it guys?

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

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Offline Jack Crevalle

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2004, 12:55:25 AM »
I like Hoppes #9 because the smell has sentimental value but there are alot of better bore solvent available today, especially for a tough job like you describe.

Offline savageT

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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2004, 02:23:44 AM »
Quote from: Jack Crevalle
I like Hoppes #9 because the smell has sentimental value but there are alot of better bore solvent available today, especially for a tough job like you describe.


How 'bout it Jack?  What do you recommend for a bore cleaner?  I must have just about one of everything.  I used the Hoppe's #9 to neutralize the ammonia originally.  Figured going to Shooter's Choice was just to insure that I got the copper out.  The Break Free CLP also is a pretty good cleaner by itself.

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline S.S.

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2004, 05:07:42 AM »
IOSSO paste from the Walmart sporting goods dept.
works as good as anything I have found so far.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Jack Crevalle

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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2004, 06:46:14 AM »
Sorry, I missed that you used Shooter's Choice and the way I read your post I thought that you used the BreakFree just to prevent rust.

I myself don't trust these all-in-one products: clean, lubricate etc. I figure if they leave something behind that they can't clean all that well. That said I've begun to use EEZOX after cleaning as a rust inhibitor. For bore cleaning I've found that BoreTech bore solvent works as well as anything I've tried. I really wasn't going to make a recommendation though, I was just perplexed that someone was still using Hoppes and pushing a pile of patches through a bore to get it clean.

Offline savageT

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2004, 07:48:46 AM »
Jack,
 Thanks for your insight.  I've used various bore cleaners now for two years since getting the Swede and have continued to drag out dirty patches no matter what product I have tried.....Shooter's Choice; Butches BoreShine; Hoppe's #9; Gunslick Nitro Solvent; Otis Technologies bore cleaner, on and on.  I've just never believed that I truly was down to bare metal.
As mentioned earlier, I have not tried J-B Bore Cleaning Compound and Kroil combination, Ed's Red either.  Now there are some pretty exotic and pricy cleaners on the market today, and I want no part of joining the Snake-Oil shams.

Up until now, I've never tried the electronic bore cleaner because of fear of doing damage with the household ammonia.  It seems a firestorm of controversy arrises every time someone starts talking about their personal cleaning techniques especially with black powder/ muzzle loaders.  Been there, done that!  Don't get me wrong, I'm open to suggestions on electronic bore cleaners, how well they work, and what materials and technique to use following the electronic bore cleaners.
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline Longcruise

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2004, 12:06:48 PM »
I've used electronic cleaning for a couple years now.  Not always but when the bore is really bad.  At first I used straight ammonia but found tha an ammonia/water/vinegar mix is much better.  don't remember the formula but you can get it at surplusrifle.com.

Otherwise it's Sweets 7.62 but it's probably no better than the other ammonia based copper cutters.

Offline SeaBass

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2004, 04:34:47 PM »
I had to use the electric bore cleaner twice on my Enfield.  The first time the rod was BLACK big time.  I cleaned it and put it through another cycle with the electric bore cleaner (with a new rod).  Now I can actually get clean patches out of it and the bore is bright and shiny.

Offline savageT

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2004, 04:59:34 PM »
Quote from: SeaBass
I had to use the electric bore cleaner twice on my Enfield.  The first time the rod was BLACK big time.  I cleaned it and put it through another cycle with the electric bore cleaner (with a new rod).  Now I can actually get clean patches out of it and the bore is bright and shiny.

Seabass,
Can you give me some details on what rod/power pack you used and what the solution was (ie: plain household ammonia, 3-4%, or the household ammonia, white vinegar and H2O)?
Thanks!
Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline Robert357

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article on home-made bore cleaner
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2004, 07:01:01 AM »
The following is a link to a home made bore cleaner and give different chemical formula's

http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

So far on my MN1891/30,I haven't tried an electronic bore cleaner.  I guess, I am old school.

I have worn out two bronze brushes, emptied a couple of small bottles of Hoppe's No. 9, used JB Bore Cleaner, Kroils (the oil that creeps), Hoppe's Benchrest Copper Cleaner, Sweets 7.62 Copper Cleaner, countless patches and lots of time.  

What seemed to work best was soaking the bore in No. 9 overnight with the bore plugged, then really scrubbing with an oversized bronze brush (i.e. 8mm to .338 sized), while liberally flushing with more No. 9 as I scrubbed.  I didn't bother with patches, I just flushed with No.9 while I did several sets of 30 strokes with the bronze brush.  That resulted in the most impressive change in bore condition.  

After shooting jacketed bullets, letting the Sweets 7.62 soak for say 5 minutes and then doing patches wetted with more 7.62 also seems to get the "blue out."  I then like to work my way to Hoppe's Benchrest, and ultimately to Hoppe's #9.  Then to finish I either use Hoppe's gun bore oil or Kroil before I put the rifle in the gun safe

I have figured that my 1939 Russian MN has probably seen decades of abuse, so a few months of cleaning on may part along with lots of shooting is probably par for the course.  The bore is looking much nicer now and after a good cleaning, the patches do come out mostly clean.

Offline SeaBass

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2004, 02:11:03 PM »
SavageT,
  I'm using the same set up as you, except I use 2 D cells.  I use straight ammonia.  I make sure the barrel stays full through out the process.  I also use spacers(zip ties) small enough to ensure there aren't any air pockets.  The first rod was made from a coat hanger.  The second  was a piece of welding rod.  I did fill my bore w/ No9 for an hour, after I cleaned the big stuff out, before I cleaned it.  I cleaned it with no 9 first then Birchwood and Casey bore scrubber(works better on copper).  

  This rifle was built in 1917 and rebarreled in '29.  I bought it about 15 years ago and it sat in my gun locker for 14 of them.  When I pulled it out I realized that it had been dirty all that time (maybe longer I had never fired it).  My point is it was DIRTY.  There is some pitting in the barrel but not too much(I borescoped it to make sure it was safe to fire)

  With open sights my groups were 3" at 100yds.

  I installed a no drill scope mount, 4-12x40 scope, fine tuned the bedding, and stoned the sear some.

  On a good day it shoots MOA now.  It really is a pleasure to shoot.
(whoops got of the subject a bit, sorry)

Offline savageT

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2004, 03:12:22 PM »
Seabass,
That's Great info!  I have tried using the straightened coat-hanger, and with the 6.5mm Swede (0.264" bore) you don't have allot of bore clearance for any bends or kinks. So I went down to Home Depot and bought a straight section of 1/8" steel rod to use for an electrode....also picked up some small O-rings 1/4 x 1/8 x 1/16, #60 to go over the rod.  I don't like the O-rings though as they tend to slip position too easily. As you said, they prevent the solution from getting down to the end of the bore. I will try electrical tape or shrink tubing instead.

Today, I mixed up a quart of Ed's Red Bore Cleaner to try swabbing out the bore. Here's the ingredients for you Do it Yourselfers:
1 part Dextron II, IIA, or III Transmission Fluid
1 part Type K1 Kerosene
1 part Mineral Spirits (low odor type paint thinner)
1 part Acetone
* Optional (did not use): 1 lb. per gallon of mixture: lanolin, anhydrous.
The lanolin give the mixture the advantage that you can safely rustproof for up to 2 year period after application.

The solvent worked quite well. However, as Ed Harris stated....this is not a copper solvent.  It will do a great job of cleaning the bore of powder/primer residues and as such will help in preventing the copper jacket build-up once the bore is clean.

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline azshooter

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2004, 04:00:45 PM »
Glad it worked out well for you.  I have not yet needed to use my homemade cleaner more than once but boy that one time it sure did save a lot of work with a badly copper fouled barrel.  I used straight household ammonia - worked great.

Offline Longcruise

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2004, 05:02:05 AM »
for a rod i've found that the piano wore sold at hobby stores works good.  they have many diameters available.  very small rubber bands wrapped around the rod stay in place and seem to allow the liquid to get past.

Offline gun_nut

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2004, 01:09:00 AM »
When I made my electric bore cleaner I used a transformer I picked up from Radio Shack for a buck, the kind that you use to charge cell phones with. They had a whole box of old ones, just look for one with the right volts. Makes it so much easier, just snip the ends off and attach alligator clips on and then its ready anytime you are, just plug it in and clip it on. Don't have to worry about power left in batteries or distroy a flashlight.

I use 3/16 or 1/4 inch stainless steel rods and beveled washers used for faucets with the hole in the middle the size of the rod. I use 2 parts water, one part ammonia, one part vinager.

Anyway, I cleaned my MN M44 about a dozen times in the electric bore cleaner, each time it came out with sludge. I cleaned it after with Ed's Red after warming the barrel up in a gun oven I made up. I think it is as clean as it is ever going to get.

Offline wildbirdhunter

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2004, 06:33:04 AM »
Here is the how to on one that I made per a frend.

I tried to reduce the drawing I had made up into something that could be posted but it got too tiny to view so I'm going to assume that anybody reading this will have a general idea of a basic electric circuit with a line running out from the positive end of a battery and returning to the negative end. That is all this device really consists of. The power source is a single, "D" cell flashlight battery. I like the rechargable ones for obvious reasons. In this circuit, a wire is run from the positive lead of the battery, through a simple ON/OFF switch, and out to a 3Ft length of wire with an alligator clip attached. From the negative pole, a wire is run to another 3 Ft length of wire with yet another alligator clip attached. This time, between the negative pole and the clip, you're going to wire in a 0-100 Milliamp DC panel meter. I like to assemble all the components in a Radio Shack 'electronic project box'. They come in all sizes and make for a neat job. Radio Shack also sells the battery holders and 3 ft test leads with alligator clips already attached. With the exception of the Panel Meter, you can probably pick up almost everything you need for the job at Radio Shack.

The next item you'll need is a 1/8 or 3/16" diameter piece of spring stock, about 3 ft in length. Usually hobby shops have this. Any kind of steel rod will do provided it doesn't have alot of flex in it. On one end of this rod, you're going to shrink into place a length of the heat-shrink wire wrap cover -again available from Radio Shack. Harbor Freight has them as well. The ideal here is to cover about 3" of the end of the rod, including the butt end. No rod exposed on that end. Over the other end of the rod you're going to slip another length of the heat-shrink but you're not going to shrink into place. This piece of tubing will be slid up and down the rod as needed for different barrel lengths. The shrink wraps, both fixed and sliding, will keep the steel rod from grounding to the barrel. It's this rod that will recieve all the copper from your barrel so polish it up well, removing any scale and oil before you get to working on it. You're almost done.

Lastly, you need some Parson's Brand Non Sudsing household ammonia. It's blue in color. Why Parsons? Dunno! The guy who designed this unit said to use it, and it only. They sell it nation-wide. Maybe it's not important. Just don't use "sudsing" ammonia.

To Use the Unit:

Clean the powder residue from your barrel. With the bolt removed, insert an appropriately sized cork into the chamber. Prop the gun with the muzzle up. Using a 10CC syringe or a small funnel pour the ammonia into the bore, leaving enough space to insert the electrode (steel rod) without overflowing. Ammonia will dull a glossy finish on a gunstock poste haste so, if it's deluxe wood, remove the barreled action. Otherwise, tie an old T-shirt around the barrel below the muzzle to catch overflow. The Ammonia will not harm the gun's blueing. No guarantees on nickle, though.

With the rod in the barrel (shrink wrapped end towards the chamber) , and the ammonia filled up to the top attach the positive lead of the unit to any metal part that is in circuit with the barrel: the trigger guard, rear sight, reciever ring...what ever. The negative end will attach to the exposed metal end of the rod. The sliding tube will lay between the rod and the barrel preventing the rod from shorting out to the barrel proper.

Flip the switch. The meter should have a brief (1-5 second) spike, then start drifting downward. It will settle out at some point. If the meter stays spiked, check to see that the exposed metal of the rod isn't touching the barrel. Don't freak out. There isn't an arc of electricity carving into your barrel. Just reposition the rod until the needle starts downward. After a few minutes you'll see the meter needle drop quite a bit. Turn off the unit, remove the rod, and wipe off the balck gunk that has accumulated on the rod. It's powder residue and other junk carried over by the current. When you wipe the rod you may already see traces of copper. Reinsert the rod, top off the ammonia, and start it up again. The meter will climb up past it's previous low point. Now you can leave it alone unless you're cleaning an ancient Lee Enfield or such with 80 years of copper fouling! About 20 minutes should see a normal rifle cleaned. There will always be a few milli-amps of current passing through the solution so when the meter reads below 10MA I usually figure it's done. When done, remove the rod, pour out the ammonia. (It will be a crazy blue color) Remove the cork. Run a patch of H20 through the bore, then patch it dry. A light patch with a drop of oil follows. Done.

Safety: The fellow who designed this rig put it into print in a shooting journal some 20 years ago. The next issue, the Editor (an Ex RCBS employee) stated that he'd "heard" that this unit would etch barrels and the electricity could arc inside the barrel, and that possibly, the very iron could be sucked from the steel itself. The designer posted a retraction of the article, claiming that RCBS had threatened him with a lawsuit over what they deemed "patent infringments" on their electric bore cleaner. Well, I smelled a rat. I was in college at the time and our school had a very good chemistry lab. Long story short, with the help of the head of the Chem dept., I ran an experiment on a section of barrel where by I induced current for 120 continous hours. Every day the section of barrel was examined for surface irregularities and weighed to the 10,000 of a gram. No change in weight showed nothing being "stripped" from the steel. There was no change in surface finish. I have used this device for 20 years now on $30 junkers and $5000 collector's guns with no worries. As some of you know, I am a cast bullet junkie. Before this device I would run through quarts of "Sweets 7.62" to remove the copper fouling from each new treasure that crossed my bench. As all cast bullet shooters should know, copper fouling causes inaccuracy and leading. This "de-plating machine" has been a godsend.

By today's standards, this unit costs about $30 to assemble. Built to the specifications I outlined, it should be safe when used as described. If you change anything you're on your own. If you choose to build this unit, you do so at your own risk. Don't you hate having to read that?

Good Luck. ~AMMOe

Panel Meter source: Mouser Electronics (800) 346-6873 or www.mouser.com

The part # is 541-MSQ-DMA-100 and the last cost I have is $18.85
Ask for a "Two-inch, Surface Mount, 0-100 Milliamp, DC, Panel meter" and you'll be fine.

Offline savageT

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2004, 01:58:14 PM »
wildbirdhunter.........
Excellent article on that electronic bore cleaner!  A couple questions come to mind:
1.  You are using only a 1 1/2 volt DC supply, one (1-D cell) as compared to the usual 3 volt DC supply. I've used two (2-C cells) in series.  Is there a reason to limit the voltage?  Is it current limited?
2.  Do you have any idea of the actual milliamp (0-100ma) range that you experienced with this setup?  I have a couple volt/ohm meters and can substitute one for this setup.
3. I will pickup Parsons Ammonia as you recommend (non-sudsy).  Have you tried the 1 part ammonia, 1 part white vinegar, 2 parts H2O?  Does it attack lead as well as copper?

Thanks again!
Jim
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Offline wildbirdhunter

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Electronic Bore Cleaner- Home made version
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2004, 05:18:55 AM »
SavageT I wish I could say that was my article but it’s not a friend posted that on another site. I put my bore cleaner together just as the article details. No changes as I was told buy Ammoe he does not know what will happen if you did change things on it. As for the battery I us just the one D-cell. I wish I could tell you why don’t know but it works. I have used it on to of my TC barrels one being a 17rem and the other is 223 barrel the meter reading was a little different on both of them. I thing that was because of the copper builds up faster on the 17rem. I have only used the ammonia full strength no changes as you can pick up a gallon for under about $5 at Target. I was told that the unit works the same as a reverse electroplater so it may work for lead also as Ammoe is a really big lead head and loves to shoot cast bullets out of his surplus rifles. I do know that he used it on a rifle that had molly bullets shot in it and it removed the molly from the barrel.  

WBH