Case head separation?

[Water Rat]

Hi guys
I recently have had 6 243win cases separate on me.
They haven’t come completely apart but have cracked better than half way around the case.

Ok this is what I know about checking for problems in that area.
1. To look for a bright ring just above the web area.
2. That I can take a paper clip bent on one end and insert it into the case and feel for a dip just above the web area.

After having the first 4 separate I went through all of my brass and checked everything out and trashed any that had the slightest of a strange feel to them.
Fact is I probably trashed some that had nothing wrong with them but I wasn’t going to take any chances.

Ok so I hit the range last weekend with my Encore thinking that all is well now, but after going through my brass I find 2 more that have separated
and about 10 that have a bright ring but don’t feel bad using the paper clip trick.

I thought about trashing all of the brass(about 300rds) and starting over but there is about 200 of them that have only been loaded 3-4 times and there all mixed together.

I just bought the Encore new and its not grouping worth a darn but I think it has a bad crown and it will get sent back to T/C or re-crowned by a local smith.

Ok now the questions.
Is there any other way of telling if your going to have case head separation other than the two methods that I used?

Could there be something wrong with the Encore to cause this problem?

Also after I lube and size my brass I wash it  in hot water with a little dish soap then I put them in a cardboard box with a hair dryer stuck through the top to dry them.

Could it be that the cases are getting to hot in the drying process?
Thanks.
Water Rat

[Jack Crevalle]

I think it's unlikely that a hair dryer could get hot enough to effect the properties of your brass. I think that it is more likely that the box you are drying it in would catch fire before that.

Your Encore could have an over-generous chamber but I think more likely that it is the sizing or the brass itself causing the problem.

[bgjohn]

Your problem is caused by brass which is too long. Trim it and try it again.
JM

[Iowegan]

Water Rat, I noticed you said: "I thought about trashing all of the brass(about 300rds) and starting over but there is about 200 of them that have only been loaded 3-4 times and there all mixed together".

How many times have you loaded the other brass? 5 to 6 loadings is the average life expectancy of brass cases. The hotter you load them, the higher the failure rate. I think your brass is wearing out from use, not too long or too hot. I haven't loaded 243's for several years but I do not remember the chambering being a brass eater. The brand of brass and your chamber dimensions do have a big impact on brass life.

[bgjohn]

I have 22 Hornet brass that have been loaded at least a dozen times. Hornet brass is VERY thin. The 243 shouldn't eat brass. Check your case length as I said before.  Trimm to spec and fix your problem,
JM

[Water Rat]

bgjohn
I’m not sure but I think the last ones that separated were freshly trimmed, I will check my notes to be sure and if they weren’t I will trim up a batch and see how that works.
Water Rat

[Water Rat]

I think more likely that it is the sizing or the brass itself causing the problem.

By the sizing of the brass being the problem, what do you mean?
Water Rat

[Water Rat]

Iowegan
I’m pretty sure that it is the older 100 cases that are giving me the problems because the first 4 cases were the old brass but before I found out I had a problem I had tumbled everything else so with everything being freshly tumbled I cant tell the old from the newer brass now.

Is there anyway to check for case head problems other than the two ways I described in my original post?
Water Rat

[Thomas Krupinski]

Those are the only two ways I know of.

Do you know the history of the cases you are using and the ones that separated?  By any chance were these fired in another chamber some before going into the Encore?  If so they may have streached a bit in that firing(s).

If these were previously fired in another chamber and worked fine there, and then showed signs of excessive stretch after being fired in your Encore, the Encore headspace may be excessive and you are pushing the shoulder back too much with the sizing die down too far for that chamber.  

If they worked fine with the sizing die set for the previously used chamber, you may have to set the die up a little higher to work well in that Encore chamber and reduce stretch.

Also what John said about trimming is something necessary to check.

[Water Rat]

Thomas Krupinski
All of these cases were shot through my old Ruger that I sold to buy the Encore.

Before I sized anything I tried the Ruger fired brass in the Encore and it fit so I never bothered adjusting the die.

The die is set to just touch the shoulder but didn’t bump it back on the Ruger.

I guess it could be possible that the Encore has a larger head space and that I need to adjust the die out for it.

You know after thinking about it you may be right because some of the cases that I have shot in the Encore had really flat primers and those loads were 1/2 - 1 full grain from max according to the book.
Water Rat

[bgjohn]

Just neck size them next time.
JM

[rpseven]

Well I will put my two cents in I would go and have your head space checked on your encore. I had a 300 win mag barrel that wouldn't shoot worth a penny and I found out that the headspace on it was way to much. And then after I sent back for the second time they said it also had a bad crown also.So that might be your case problem and your accuracy promblem also. And as for your case seperation I once bought my wife a NEF 243 that done the same thing, the cases seperated like that after a few firings and the accuracy was poor. Good luck.

[Iowegan]

Lets look as the basics for head separation. When brass cases are formed in the manufacturing process, the weakest area is where the wall of the case meets the solid head. When a round is fired, the pressure inside the case can easily go to 50,000 lbs and the temperature is very hot. Pressure is applied to all internal surfaces of the case. Combine these characteristics and you'll see why cases "wear out" at the weakest point, the head-to-wall area. Yes, the mouth will split too but that's from the brass being expanded and resized (work hardening).

The conditions that accelerate head separation are poor quality cases, excessive head space, and hot loads. In each case, the pressure attacks the entire case but the weakest area will be the first to show symptoms, that being the head-to-wall area where case separation occurs.

The lock-up on a bolt rifle is typically very solid. If there is an excessive headspace issue, it can be determined quite easily with a headspace gauge (I manufacture these).  A sure sign of excessive headspace is getting case separation on the first one or two case firings.

Some guns appear to lock up tight and when tested for headspace they will check OK. However, when the gun is fired, the lock-up has enough flex under 50K psi to move open slightly, then spring back to normal after the pressure drops. When there is flex, the brass case stretches, then contracts. This will attack the weakest area of the case first.

I believe this flex condition is what you are experiencing with the Encore. I have tested hundreds of guns over the years for chamber behavior. Never tested a 243 but I did see similar problems with Encores in the heavier calibers where brass life was 2 or 3 loads. This condition does not make the gun unsafe. It will however, make the cases wear out faster than normal.

With your gun, getting 4 or 5 loads per case might be considered good.

[bgjohn]

Thomas Krupinski
All of these cases were shot through my old Ruger that I sold to buy the Encore.

Before I sized anything I tried the Ruger fired brass in the Encore and it fit so I never bothered adjusting the die.

The die is set to just touch the shoulder but didn’t bump it back on the Ruger.

I guess it could be possible that the Encore has a larger head space and that I need to adjust the die out for it.

You know after thinking about it you may be right because some of the cases that I have shot in the Encore had really flat primers and those loads were 1/2 - 1 full grain from max according to the book.
Water Rat

Flat primers are a sign of excess pressure. Check the OAL of your load too. If the case gets too long the front of the case gets pinched by the bullet at the throat area and locks the front of the case. The rear of the case moves anyway  stretching the case at the weakest point. See the "Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading" Third Edition, p15 for a picture.
JM

[BCB]

Water Rat,

I would first take the rifle to someone who has a "go" "no go" headspace gauge for a 243.  If all is O.K. there, then get yourself 20 or so NEW brass.

Start by neck sizing this brass, and measure to be certain they are all within the max allowed case length.  Use the same load (assuming it is a recommended load from a manufactures reloading manual) that you have been using.

If the load you are using is not a max load, you should get at least 1/2 dozen reloads from new brass.  I have some 270, 223, 30-30, and 7-30 Waters brass that has been reloaded and honest 20 times!  The 270 and 223 generally don't last that long with moderate to max loads.  Yet, they are good for at least a dozen reloads.  All but the 270 are shot in Contenders.

And last, but probably what you don't want to hear, I once had a TCR/87 single shot rifle in 22-250 caliber.  The headspace was ridiculous, almost enbarrassing, for a T/C Arms product.  I lost cases on the FIRST firing!  I sent the rifle back and got a new barrel.  The headspace was better, but I still got case separation with 2 or 3 firings.  The rifle NEVER did shoot worth the near $1000 (rifle and 'scope) that I had in it.  I finally got rid of it.  I believe the flexing in the single shot break open actions can be a problem also.  Don't know for sure.  Good-luck...BCB

[reallybigfoot]

I had the same problem with my 7MM barrel and a lesser problem with my 243 barrel.  I sent the barrel back to T/C twice.  They replaced it once and then worked on the chamber the second time.  Their final advice was to shoot reduced loads.  I would mark the brass so I could rotate it each time I shot and that did get a few more reloads.  I necked sized with a Lee Collet die and that didn't help.  It wasn't very acurate so I traded it for a 1996 Winchester Larado.  I couldn't be happier.

[Kragman71]

Water Rat,
For some reason,some rifles will 'eat 'brass aa lot quicker then others.
My Savage Hornet has never seen a 6 loaded case,but My Springfield Krag has a batch of brass,ready to load that have been reloaded 18 times.
I expect 20 loadings.
Your problem may be the extra working of the brass because you used it in two different chambers. Heavy loads will do it also.
If it continues beyond the 300 cases on hand,it may be a good idea to have the headspace checked.
Frank

[Robert357]

WaterRat;  

Since this is a facinating thread, I thought I would make a suggestion of having you read the following URL.

http://bellmtcs.tripod.com/id22.htm

It is an article entitled "The Experiment that every Contender shooter should perform."  It discusses how the design of single action break open handguns tends to put a "preload" stress on the cartridge and firearm depending upon how the case is sized.  It also discusses how in a GoldieLocks kind of way too much or too little shoulder adjustment will cause problems in case sizing.

You may wish to both read this particular test and some of the other posts on the main menu to see if anything sounds particularly like your firearm.

Good Luck

[Darrell Davis]

Good morning 243 shooters.

Can't help but love this round. Back in about 1958 I lived in Eastern Oregon - 7 miles from the nearest other folk. Wow what a place to grow up if you like to shoot.

Anyway, a fellow we had recently met was talking about a rifle he had won for 50 cents in Portland. The rifle just happen to be a Win. model 70 with a 4x Leupold w/dot.

Offering to let me shoot it, he handed me an old GI bag of 243 reloads and told me to get with it. Now I was already impressed, as I had seen shells in boxes of 20, 25 or 50 depending on the caliber or gauge, but I had never seen a bag of shells much less being handed an almost new rifle along with the bag and told to shoot.

To say I was impressed is an understatement. This was a for sure step up, from my .32 Win. Special w/iron sights.  WOW! :grin:

Well, back to the question/problem. One of the very first things which IMHO needs to be done is - That brass needs to be kept separated as to number of times fired and number of times trimmed. Yes, the 243 will get a bit longer with repeated firings. The "improved" versons of this round will help that "problem," to some degree.  And of course it should go without saying that this is not mixed brand and/or lot number brass.

I also expect that what is being said about the possible spring of the break open action could be a factor. However, I once had a Contender in 35 Rem. which never showed this problem. I realise the .35 is a lower pressure round, but when I got the barrel it came with a box of Rem. brass which had been fired an unknown number of times. When I sold the barrel, that same brass had been fired 17 times that I know of and it was still going strong.

One other factor that we as reloaders should take into considration IS, setting up our sizing die FOR THE CHAMBER OF OUR FIREARM.

The manufactures of both our reloading and shooting equipment are dealing with tolerances both plus and minus which are considered exceptable within the industry. Should you get a firearm at the max. end of these figures and a resizing die at the min. end, you are in trouble from the first crack out of the box. Everyone, has done what they were supposed to do, everything is within tolerances, and now is where the experienced reloader just might make the difference.

I - personally - first ran into this problem years ago with a 7mm mag. from which I just wasn't having the brass life I expected. This rifle had a long chamber (head to neck) and I was setting my sizing die as per recomendations so that the ram/shell holder would contact the base of the die and just slightly cam over on the up stroke. I short, I was over sizing my brass and every time a round was fired it would need to streach again (just ahead of the head/belt) to fill the chamber.

I now, and have for years, adjusted my sizing die for the firearm I have, and NOT as per the manufactures instructions. In this way, I lessen the repeated streaching of the brass EVEN if my combination of chamber/die happen to be on the max. end of the tolerances.

Anyway, it works for me!

Keep em coming! :wink: