New Silhouette Association

[K2]

If you are interested in a brand new silhouette association and getting in on the ground floor it looks like you will have the opportunity starting mid summer or early fall.  

We will be a full spectrum association that includes rifle as well as pistol.  The empahsis is going to be on normal mass produced guns being used pretty much as bought, though a custom category will be included.  Savage Strikers and others that are currently overweight will be allowed in.  Rugers, Colts, Taurus, S&W revolvers will not have to be shoot against FA's.  FA's will be in the custom category.  A strong youth division is going to be on the ground floor also.  There will be trigger pull weight minimums to make things easier on the match officials.  

Dual and triple sanction will be considered (both IHMSA and NRA) so that the new games can fit in with the old established games with an emphasis placed on being flexible.  Swinger matches will be sanctioned for example, and reported as such.  We will not require local entries in order to compete in big matches either.  Unclassed shooters will compete in the top class, but will at least be allowed to shoot.    Borrowing from the NRA ideas there will be a sight in period at the beginning of each match plus 5 sighters allowed for each entry after the match has begun.  (this is a great help to those who travel to a match location they are not familiar with)  Following the IHMSA idea all entries will begin with Chicken and shoot thru.  

Working the bugs out this summer between rifle and pistol will be in AIR using the old AIR rules (no aftermarket sights) for pistol and a sporter rifle division (Daisy 853's and Crosman 2000's as the top rifles allowed) as well as a precesion division.   Field Pistol is going to be a full discipline with freestyle entries in addition to the standing entries.  Again we will be going back to straight walled cartridges only with a minimum caliber of .30
Cowboy rifles will fit in with this discipline as well.  Barrel length on revolvers will be shorter in FP (6 5/8ths or possibly 7 1/2") and there will be a revolver/auto category so you don't have to shoot against the single shots in the Short Range CF game (FP/Hunter Pistol)

If you want to get in on rules ideas now is the time to be heard.  Rules will be very stable with changes only allowed every 5 years.   Premium is to be placed on fun/families/new shooter development if you are interested.

[K2]

I had to laugh today, I saw one of the hard core equipment racers calling me practically a heretic for starting up a new silhouette shooting association.  He got the same reaction one would see if you said "vouchers" at a public school convention.  "It'll destroy the (fill in the blank) if we have a choice of what to do!  Such non-sense.  

Just as in hunting where you can hunt with a Bow, a muzzleloader, rifle, pistol or shotgun, the shooting sports can also be done in various ways.  The fact is hunting is valid whether with a bow or a scoped rifle and silhouette shooting will be valid whether using a high tech Buck Rogers Ray Gun, or a 6 inch revolver or such.  

I expect more such personal attacks especially if high techy silly wet continues its steady decline and the new game grows.  

Elgin Gates first went to the established shooting organizations with his new pistol sport idea and it was poo-pooed.  At the time Bullseye type paper shooting was king (still is in terms of total participation) and since none have ever shot a perfect 2700 was deemed tough enough.  

I think of the shooting sports sort of like Ice Cream,  some like Chocolate rocky road, some like butter pecan, and some of us like plain ole Vanilla  

I am betting that plain ole Vanilla will be making a big comeback in many sports in the coming years

[ted]

I think you have a good idea and applaud you taking the initiative. Keeping the rules simple is an obvious (though deceptively not simple) idea. I would suggest that for unlimited just say that 1. any safe trigger(or simply put a minimum) and 2. the gun should fit in a box of 'x by y' dimensions.  This should satisfy anyone who wants to make the sky the limit to build a 'supergun' if they want and let the guns like the stikers be able to be shot too. As far as production, having a gun that is 'as is' from the manufacturer is a great rule!

[K2]

We are on the same page Ted!  

Some think I am against "Unlimited" guns.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Unlimited (though it won't be called that cause any rules at all mean there are "limits") will be exactly as you describe, a safe trigger and a gun that fits into a box of a certain size.  Weight can be whatever one wants to hold up and will be the way to reduce felt recoil.  I think Savage makes a good gun in the Striker and it never did make sense to me to keep it out of the game.  There is currently no major manufacture that is "into" silhouette shooting for a reason.  

Getting away from rule changes each and every year will also be a great thing in that it will stop the bickering over what should be allowed or not.  Bullseye shooting went for years and years without rules modifications and we can too.  

Going to a match should about having a good time with people that like to shoot.  Not whether you have the latest and greatest "new" gadget or what order you choose to shoot your guns in (super silly in my opinion).  

Those in power have let $ be too much of a factor in who wins or doesn't.  economics is why many are avoiding the shooting sports.  All are simply getting way too expensive due to equipment racing.  Meanwhile Ruger and S&W, Taurus etc. continue to sell thousands and thousands of guns, and the ammo makers are selling millions of rounds of ammo.  Folks are doing something with it all.  

Focus on Fun and the fact that a 30 is a good score, not something to be ashamed of and the sport will do nothing but get more and more popular.  If you focus on equipment that one in one million actually own such as a Niesika bay custom action gun and you will get participation from one in one million.  This takes nothing away from Niesika bay they make a great product, but the fact is I have never seen one in person and I go to the range a fair amount.  I do see Marlins, Remingtons, Rugers, S&W's etc. each and every time I go.  

I just want to enjoy shooting, which is recreation to me and I suspect many others.  

I think you have a good idea and applaud you taking the initiative. Keeping the rules simple is an obvious (though deceptively not simple) idea. I would suggest that for unlimited just say that 1. any safe trigger(or simply put a minimum) and 2. the gun should fit in a box of 'x by y' dimensions.  This should satisfy anyone who wants to make the sky the limit to build a 'supergun' if they want and let the guns like the stikers be able to be shot too. As far as production, having a gun that is 'as is' from the manufacturer is a great rule!

[K2]

Hi Ted

I read yesterday that the latest IHMSA President resigned after about a year or less of his 3 year term.  This is the trend in the IHMSA and I can't remember the last President that actually finished his term.   The association obviously is having major problems.  

You are one of the responders here on this site.  What is your opinion of UAS (scoped freestyle entries)?  We had a somewhat lively discussion the other day over this.  The old timers told me that initially it was to retain the older shooters who could no longer see the sights/targets with iron sights.  They are unhappy that in many areas it is now used to get the 40x40 bragging rights when just about anyone can do it with little or no practice.  My suggestion was to retain it but put in in the physically challenged area of the sport.  If one can see then iron sights are what is needed.  If one cannot have his vision corrected enough with glasses (say 20-40 ) then with a doctors note stating this he is allowed to shoot in the scoped class.  

It may have been coincidental but Silhouette went into a steady decline after the scopes were allowed in.  Shoot-offs in UAS are commonplace since just about everyone shoots a perfect score and the only way to determine a "winner" is to put chickens way out on the ram line.  Even then they often take up to 20 additional shots before somebody misses.  This has prompted the 1/2 scale games to put a degree of difficulty back into the game.  (this is interesting because if difficulty is what one is after then Standing is the game that has never had a single perfect score shot yet  :wink: )  1/2 scale is not needed except for scopes.  

Anyway let us know your thoughts cause after we finish with the rules we are going to stand by them (constant rule changes kill off any competition).

I think you have a good idea and applaud you taking the initiative. Keeping the rules simple is an obvious (though deceptively not simple) idea. I would suggest that for unlimited just say that 1. any safe trigger(or simply put a minimum) and 2. the gun should fit in a box of 'x by y' dimensions.  This should satisfy anyone who wants to make the sky the limit to build a 'supergun' if they want and let the guns like the stikers be able to be shot too. As far as production, having a gun that is 'as is' from the manufacturer is a great rule!

[B_Koes]

The question wasn't directed to me, but you know I've never been one to hold my opinion!   I think your idea of mandating use of iron sights unless physical diminished capacity is a bad one (I'd like to qualify that statement but it would probably turn personal...and like my daddy says "If ya can't say sumpin' nice, then just don't say anything" so suffice it to say that I don't like the idea.  I have normal eyesight, but I would not shoot freestyle if I had to use open sights.  My .22 TC also doubles for plinking and hunting and I consider a scope necessary for this.  Open sights are a novelty best reserved for silhouettes and not in the field (again this is my opinion).  The same could not be said for my big bore gun as the scope is very specialized, but again I would not shoot freestyle if I were limited to open sights.  I gladly accept the open sight mandate of standing, but that's it...my wiggles are more than enough to offset the inefficiencies of open sights.  Granted, there are guys like Dean G. that shoot open sights better than most use scopes but that is a rare exception.

[braud357]

Feel that I must respond to this. I am 50 years old, and have been a member of IHMSA since 1980. I am also VERY far-sighted. This was not a hindrance until about 4 years ago. Since then I have had to wear bifocals. As anyone that wears them can tell you - they work, but are no substitute for young, flexible eyeballs ! Bottom line is this - I can no longer see iron sights from the creedmore position - and barely better from the Standing position. I have an eye doctor that is a former shooter, and he has worked with me on this problem for a while. We have tried everything - loups, Merit apetures, + diopter, - diopter, and what I have now is about as good as it is ever going to get. They are fine for my normal, everyday life, but, as far as shooting is concerned - THEY SUCK ! - So, I have gravitated to the scope classes . It has allowed me to continue to compete and be competitive again. Plain language is this - if the scope categories were not in place - I would no longer be shooting IHMSA. But, I am insulted that your "proposed" new association would consider me "physically handicapped". I accept where I am in the sport, and competing in UAS and US is TOUGH ! So, in my opinion, your idea stinks. Yes, IHMSA has had some "management" problems, but is still full of dedicated, hard working members that are trying to make things better. What , exactly, are YOU trying to do ? - except cause division. If you are dead-set in forming your new association - I wish you luck and success. But, in my opinion, your energies could be better served by working with us, rather than against us. One more question - have you resigned your State Directors position yet ?? (one cannot serve two "masters") !! --- Philip Braud - IHMSA Louisiana Director

[K2]

Hi Philip

By definition your eyes are physically handicapped, that is in no way an insult.  The simple fact that you joined and shot in the IHMSA for many years before scopes were allowed shows that iron sights are not a barrier to a large shooter base which is what I am looking for.  I certainly would not want to loose a shooter because age or other physical reasons keep him from using iron sights.   As you stated you can no lnger see iron sights from the creedmoor position which is the definition of a physical problem.  I never have said that competing in UAS is easy, only that shooting 40x40's in UAS is easy.  The competiton doesn't start in UAS until the shoot offs, everyone knows that.  I am glad that you are still shooting because scopes were added.  You did say however that until you could no longer see the sights you stuck with iron sights.  UAS has made 40x40's common place and this may be part of the reason that the numbers of Production entries has sharply fallen off.  Many people today believe iron sights are not worth bothering with whether they have good eyes or not.  That is a shame.  

I will answer your IHMSA issues with me in detail in another thread but the short answer is that my Alaska shooters like my opinions and I am representing what they want to see promoted, less techy equipment and a place where the little guy stands a chance.  Some "management" problems :shock:

Feel that I must respond to this. I am 50 years old, and have been a member of IHMSA since 1980. I am also VERY far-sighted. This was not a hindrance until about 4 years ago. Since then I have had to wear bifocals. As anyone that wears them can tell you - they work, but are no substitute for young, flexible eyeballs ! Bottom line is this - I can no longer see iron sights from the creedmore position - and barely better from the Standing position. I have an eye doctor that is a former shooter, and he has worked with me on this problem for a while. We have tried everything - loups, Merit apetures, + diopter, - diopter, and what I have now is about as good as it is ever going to get. They are fine for my normal, everyday life, but, as far as shooting is concerned - THEY SUCK ! - So, I have gravitated to the scope classes . It has allowed me to continue to compete and be competitive again. Plain language is this - if the scope categories were not in place - I would no longer be shooting IHMSA. But, I am insulted that your "proposed" new association would consider me "physically handicapped". I accept where I am in the sport, and competing in UAS and US is TOUGH ! So, in my opinion, your idea stinks. Yes, IHMSA has had some "management" problems, but is still full of dedicated, hard working members that are trying to make things better. What , exactly, are YOU trying to do ? - except cause division. If you are dead-set in forming your new association - I wish you luck and success. But, in my opinion, your energies could be better served by working with us, rather than against us. One more question - have you resigned your State Directors position yet ?? (one cannot serve two "masters") !! --- Philip Braud - IHMSA Louisiana Director

[volleyman]

As I've said before, your idea for a new silhouette organization is doomed to failure. In IHMSA we have fought for years for the members to have more of a say in the organization. Who on earth would want to join an shooting sport who has a "dictator for life" at the helm? As we know you only too well, you would never allow the members the power to change the rules as you have written them. Just how many suckers do you think are out there that will send you money, just to find out it there are no ranges willing to host your matches? and the new organization has failed? In Minnesota, one of the most active states in silhouette, we are very happy with hosting IHMSA matches and have no interest in your competing organization. I am sure most IHMSA ranges will boycott your matches. You will get very few existing IHMSA members because most would have to buy downgraded equiptment to compete in your classes. Most of the shooters with the average equiptment you are looking for, are happy shooting cans and bottles. They shy away from competition. Do you think you can get them to send you $20.00+ a year???Good Luck, your going to need it..(unless you need a tax write-off)

[michbob]

With all due respect, Volleyman, statement like yours are what keeps your typical shooter from seeking out silhouette shooting.  People want a simple, accessable, FUN game in which they can compete with the guns that they have in their safes.  Ranges BOYCOTTING non-IHMSA matches?  You make it sound as though the possibility of a competing association is some sort of blasphemy.  In these PC times, we need shooting sports that welcome the shooting public, or in twenty years, we'll be saying, "Back when we could shoot...."

AKIHMSA, your idea sounds like FUN.  When you get it together, let us all know.

Sincerely,
Michbob.

[Scooter the Shooter]

Michbob,
  IHMSA already allows "standard" guns to be used for competition. I started out my first year in silhouette shooting a 6" Colt revolver and a 5" Ruger 45/22. Had a blast, and over time upgraded to better equipment. Akihmsa's assertion that these guns can't compete is totally one sided. They can be used, and are used by people just starting out in the sport. Can they compete againt bolt guns and falling block pistols? Of couse they won't do as well, but that is what the class system is for, so that a beginner won't be having to shoot againt the guy thats been in the sport for 20 years and using the high dollar equipment. It just seems like a case of sour grapes to me.

  Scott

[K2]

Thanks Michbob, it is on its way!  Currently we are working on the format for the newsletter and getting pricing on the initial run of the rulebook (which will last for years  :wink: not needing to be updated weekly).  A basic game for over the counter guns is obvious to those who see Silhouette shrinking year after year.  

FYI Scott shoots in a state where a new shooter cannot upgrade his equipment even if he wanted to cause California does not allow New TC's BF's MOA's or the sub 4 1/2 lb. Bolt guns into the state.  So much for a new shooter upgrading in California in order to compete at the top.  Steve Martins builds a $140 sight set up for a daisy 747 and has a financial as well as competitive interest in equipment upgrades.  And yes there are competitive advantages to a hooded front sight.  Scotts arguement that the over the counter stuff is great is not what the new shooters see.  They see the top shooters using custom gear which carries a lot more weight than "hey you can "compete in A class" with your plinker.  Philip made the arguement for me against the so called class system when he said he can't "compete" without a scope cause his eyes don't see the sights very well any more.  Well compete in A class!   Shooting competitions are now and always have been about shooting top scores.  Ever wonder why they list the lower classes at the bottom of the page?  If those top scores are only reachable regularly with custom equipment then that is what you will see in the game.  

All of these fellows will state rather boldly that it is the shooter, not the equipment that matters, yet all upgrade their equipment.  Why would one upgrade if equipment doesn't matter?  Of course it matters.  Yes a poor shooter cannot win with the best equipment in the world, however the best shooter in the world is not going to win at a big match with over the counter guns with stock sights etc.  I know of no one who aspires to be the top A class shooter.  Of the A class shooters that I know they all want to be AA shooters so they can move up to AAA shooters etc.  

Without a mass produced over the counter category Silhouette will not grow.  History proves this very well.  The fact that we just killed the only over the counter category tells me that the Silhouetters are happy with a very small niche game.   A group of us have decided we want to see silhouette grow and put the emphasis on the shooter and promotion of marksmanship skills and take it off of the equipment.  We are looking to have a sport where you need a gun, some ammo and a pocket notebook, not an equipment box that has grown so big and heavy it needs wheels!

The real question to ask is why the IHMSA leaders seem to be afraid to have even a couple of over the counter gun categories?  What was wrong with a box stock Daisy being the gun of choice in a category?  Why make mass produced guns go head to head with the custom rigs?  

Silhouette is Fun!  Simplicity is a good goal.  Creating a simple fun game where one can be competitive at the top levels without spending a fortune is a winner and I suspect you will be one of the many that will love the new game, Michbob  :wink:    

With all due respect, Volleyman, statement like yours are what keeps your typical shooter from seeking out silhouette shooting.  People want a simple, accessable, FUN game in which they can compete with the guns that they have in their safes.  Ranges BOYCOTTING non-IHMSA matches?  You make it sound as though the possibility of a competing association is some sort of blasphemy.  In these PC times, we need shooting sports that welcome the shooting public, or in twenty years, we'll be saying, "Back when we could shoot...."

AKIHMSA, your idea sounds like FUN.  When you get it together, let us all know.

Sincerely,
Michbob.

[ted]

Akihmsa,
 I have been doing a lot of home stuff and have not looked at this site until today. Just noticed your question to me. I sent you a reply via PM. This is the first time I have used PM so I hope you get it.

[K2]

Thanks Ted I will look for it.

We are looking for fresh ideas of course and are interested in ideas from people who just find the current "Silhouette" ideas stifling.  Just for a small example a new shooter is not "allowed" to be classified in Unlimited with a Production legal gun.  When I ran across that one I asked the Board why this thing exists.  The answer was that it is an anti "sandbagger" rule, and that it was put in place because a lower score will generally be had with aproduction gun so the shooter would be in a lower class that he really should be.  Well I don't know about anyone else but if missing targets keeps one in a lower class that can be done with any gun regardless of its potential.  This is one stupid rule and only keeps newbies from trying more entries.  The entire order of fire page needs to get tossed out as well.  Gun Zorro and I independantly came to the same conclusion that it doesn't matter what order you shoot the guns in.  Some days your early entries are better and some days your latter entries are better but on average there is no statistically significant difference.  

I have heard so much bad advice based on such narrow views of the sport it amazes me sometimes.  Many people are advised that a 6 inch revolver cannot be safely shot freestyle.  Say What?  This assumes that freestyle means creedmoor and that the shooter isn't flexible.  Well here we go again, freestyle means free "style" not creedmoor though that is certainly a free style of shooting.  Fact is that many positions can work well with a 6 inch revolver.  When a newbie hears that something can not be done then he probably won't try it.  When asked why Field pistol was not a full discipline I was told freestyle field pistol would be too easy.  Agian say what???   There are plenty of ways to add difficulty to the game should that be needed.  This would be a great place for those shorter "non competitive guns".  Seems every year I read about "Sticky Rams" in big bore.  This is an area where some match directors get it when it comes to how a ram is to be legally set and some just don't.  There is no other explaination that makes since when you see a 30-20 or some other mild cartridge taking down all the rams at one range and at another a 7 TCU or .44 mag or more is getting "ringers".  

The way to deal with issues is straight on not thru endless rules.  Sandbagging is simply unsportsmanlike conduct.  You don't need to add rules that restrict new players you simply deal with the man displaying unsportsmanlike conduct.  Tell him to knock it off or leave.  Simple and direct.

Silhouette really is just about teaching the basics of marksmanship, sight alignment and trigger control.  Those who don't fully understand those basics tend to focus on the 2 oz trigger that Joe Super shooter is using or the brand new XYZ super silhouette cartridge.  Those things won't do him any good until he fully understands the basics.  This is what was so neat about AIR at teh start.  I could show a new fellow that with the basics mastered a $50 air gun could be a 38, 39 or even a 40x40 set up.  Leading by example instead of do as I say not as I do is the only way to grow the game.  We need a new set of leaders who understand this simple leadership skill.  I could tell a new fellow shoot what you have all day long but this whole thing goes flat if he sees me shooting nothing but exotic purpose built guns.  The best way to encourage shoot what you have is for the new fellows to actually see a topshooter shooting an average gun very well.  By very well I am talking about anything in the mid 30's.  Do that and they will focus on technique and not on the equipment.  Fail to do that and the sport will continue its present course.  

See you on the other side Ted ;~)  Glad to have you aboard!!  

Akihmsa,
 I have been doing a lot of home stuff and have not looked at this site until today. Just noticed your question to me. I sent you a reply via PM. This is the first time I have used PM so I hope you get it.

[Gun Zorro]

Kelly, this is the second time I have witnessed you dodge the direct question of whether you have resigned as IHMSA AK State Director. I asked it in less respectful terms, but you still have not answered. If not, I would like to know your rationale for not contributing your efforts to IHMSA instead of this stupid "new" organization.
You are just so full of BS I can't believe it. Time doesn't permit me to go into exposing all your false logic and premises a this moment. Anyone interested can go the web chat at IHMSA.org to see the bologna.  Maybe it is best that you aren't currently supplying your efforts to IHMSA. You ar high maintainence and need full time supervision.

But just to shoot hole in a couple of your latest shenanigans:
1) Shooters in CA have no probem up-grading due tothe huge quantities of existing silhouette guns in the state.
2) As Scooter said, anyone can start with just about anything in IHMSA and NRA silhouette programs (haven't these boneheads who listnen to you ever heard of NRA or IHMSA? What kind of low-grade morons do you hope to attract?)
3) Steve Martens had progressive and energetic ideas about equipment improvements far, far in advance of offering his sight system for sale. He made himself into a repeat International Champion with what he learned and shared with others. What is your claim to fame where rubber meets the pavement? ANY majors handgun silhouette championship wins at big matches?
4) Steve is simply sharing with you the uphill battle of trying to introduce a new organization into clubs that are by and large satisfied with the existing two sanctioning bodies. It is not a boycott, simply no one wants to let alternative organizaitons in unless they are in distress.
5) You have totally misread the "distress level" of the existing silhouette shooters and clubs, filtering it through you own warped perception.
6) Steve makes another good point -- you will be the next little tyrant like Elgin Gates and try to completely override the shooters' desires when they want to make changes. That alone will doom the proposed organization. It is far more important to have an organiztion open to the wishes of its members than it is to cater to a specific gun owner demographic.
7) Most to the gun owning demographic you are seeking to attract are definitely NOT competitors. If you do attract competitors, they will eventually become competitive in the running of the organization, dooming your little silhouette utopia.
Handgun silhouette has been in decline since the mid 80s when Elgin exerted supreme dictatorial control over IHMSA and its (his) finances. It has NOTHING to do with the introduction of scopes for freestyle shooting, circa 1998.
9) You may want to have a "mentally challenged" category you could compete in.
10) You might want to start signing on as "Tinkerbell" and get a bag of pixie dust to sprinkle around on those you want to interest in your views. Or take up hypnotism and call yourself "King Kelly the First".

I can't fault you for your manners, but I can for your lack of foresight and closemindedness. If you do start this new venture, I'll be sure to join (and I'm sure others will as well) just for the opportunity to philosophically spar with you and hammer your dumb ideas into the dust.

You can't just go around blindly making enemies out of your friends. The new people you are trying to attract have no idea those who are speaking out against you once considered you a friend. Put that in your brochure. You are truly an Alaskan Silhouette Shooter. GZ

[K2]

Hi GZ

My AK shooters want me to stay on, I have asked many times.

We have discussed that one can belong to other shooting associations so that is a mute point.  

The fact that the current associations refuse to have a box stock over the counter class is why I have been forced to seek alternative methods for getting this obvious category up and running.  The equipment tinkerers and modifiers own the top slots and see no need for a stock category.  I never knew Elgin Gates.  His name is synonomis with the game.  I do know that the game was more popular before his death than it has been after.  I could probably have my name associated with worse fellows.  

GZ your state of California has more population than all of region 3, so why is it that region 3 has more members than does region 6?  The fact that buying competitive equipment in your state is used only is a significant barrier to any growth whether you understand that or not.  You want to take me to task for presenting ideas to grow the sport?  That is nuts.  To get a thriving jr program we need a workable jr format and to partner up with 4-H.  You slammed that idea on the IHMSA board.  Without the jrs. we are going extinct.  

On the shooting skills.  Nope I am not a top shooter.  However given equal equipment and a few months practice I can keep Mr. Martins on his toes in the three gun agg.  Good enough for me.  I have made Int in Standing in the only area I had time to practice in AIR last year.  Many would consider this at least adequate evidence that I at least understand the basics.  I don't go to the International.  Spending thousands on a match isn't wise in my opinion when our local range is in need of lots of work.  Now I also don't think Elgin was a top shooter either, good yes but not a top 5% guy.  unfortunately for the association after he was gone only Int. class shooters ever got elected as a President until John Fouts came along.  Perhaps some equate being a top shooter as a qualification to be president, but I do not.  I think knowing how to conduct a valid vote is more important myself.  

I am aware of the move to boot me out.  The old timers here still remember the poor treatment Lee McDaniel received at the International when he went down one year and kicked the "favorites" butts using all cast bullets in the aggregate.  He did this after falling on his head off a roof and could not add up his own score card at the time.  What was done to Lee was wrong and it looks pretty silly what you are suggesting for my fate (an IHMSA hanging) for suggesting a new association to attract the over the counter crowd to silhouette.   It was just a few years ago that you were slated to get the boot Jim, and now you want to do it to me    Pretty sad statement.  My high crime is that I brought an affordable 2 entries to the IHMSA with the $150 cap in AIR Production.  Well get the rope boys he is trying to keep the cost down !!!  Sad day indeed.  Last weekend this blasphemer spent 16 hours working with youth teaching them how to shoot steel.  Off with his head!!  

If you don't want them in the game calling them plinkers and bubba's cause they are not "serious" competitors, what in the world do you see wrong with my group attracting them to silhouette?  There will be cross over so it will be good for silhouette in general.  I will create a functional jr. Program so families will get involved.  Is something wrong with that?  You have stated that it is just fine to make somebody with a Daisy go head to head with a Steyr or other Olympic quality air gun.  I disagree and so do many others within and without the IHMSA.  The only bone you throw these guys is the "class system".  The class system doesn't work unless it also includes the class of equipment.    Go ahead and ridicule those with less than perfect equipment the New game will give them a place to practice their marksmanship without any snide comments.  

While I support your taking the high dollar guns as far as you wish to go you continue to not even look at the other end of the spectrum and realize that there is a great amount of true competition to be had with an even equipment game that doesn't cost a lot of $.  

Kelly, this is the second time I have witnessed you dodge the direct question of whether you have resigned as IHMSA AK State Director. I asked it in less respectful terms, but you still have not answered. If not, I would like to know your rationale for not contributing your efforts to IHMSA instead of this stupid "new" organization.
You are just so full of BS I can't believe it. Time doesn't permit me to go into exposing all your false logic and premises a this moment. Anyone interested can go the web chat at IHMSA.org to see the bologna.  Maybe it is best that you aren't currently supplying your efforts to IHMSA. You ar high maintainence and need full time supervision.

But just to shoot hole in a couple of your latest shenanigans:
1) Shooters in CA have no probem up-grading due tothe huge quantities of existing silhouette guns in the state.
2) As Scooter said, anyone can start with just about anything in IHMSA and NRA silhouette programs (haven't these boneheads who listnen to you ever heard of NRA or IHMSA? What kind of low-grade morons do you hope to attract?)
3) Steve Martens had progressive and energetic ideas about equipment improvements far, far in advance of offering his sight system for sale. He made himself into a repeat International Champion with what he learned and shared with others. What is your claim to fame where rubber meets the pavement? ANY majors handgun silhouette championship wins at big matches?
4) Steve is simply sharing with you the uphill battle of trying to introduce a new organization into clubs that are by and large satisfied with the existing two sanctioning bodies. It is not a boycott, simply no one wants to let alternative organizaitons in unless they are in distress.
5) You have totally misread the "distress level" of the existing silhouette shooters and clubs, filtering it through you own warped perception.
6) Steve makes another good point -- you will be the next little tyrant like Elgin Gates and try to completely override the shooters' desires when they want to make changes. That alone will doom the proposed organization. It is far more important to have an organiztion open to the wishes of its members than it is to cater to a specific gun owner demographic.
7) Most to the gun owning demographic you are seeking to attract are definitely NOT competitors. If you do attract competitors, they will eventually become competitive in the running of the organization, dooming your little silhouette utopia.
Handgun silhouette has been in decline since the mid 80s when Elgin exerted supreme dictatorial control over IHMSA and its (his) finances. It has NOTHING to do with the introduction of scopes for freestyle shooting, circa 1998.
9) You may want to have a "mentally challenged" category you could compete in.
10) You might want to start signing on as "Tinkerbell" and get a bag of pixie dust to sprinkle around on those you want to interest in your views. Or take up hypnotism and call yourself "King Kelly the First".

I can't fault you for your manners, but I can for your lack of foresight and closemindedness. If you do start this new venture, I'll be sure to join (and I'm sure others will as well) just for the opportunity to philosophically spar with you and hammer your dumb ideas into the dust.

You can't just go around blindly making enemies out of your friends. The new people you are trying to attract have no idea those who are speaking out against you once considered you a friend. Put that in your brochure. You are truly an Alaskan Silhouette Shooter. GZ

[Gun Zorro]

That is absolutely not true about my not considering the box-stock guns. They are all perfectly legal for existing IHMSA categories, including AIR.

Your analysis of CA statistics completely overlooks the fact that CA was the largest handgun silhouette stronghold on the world prior to the terrible civil wars between Elgin Gates and the CA shooters, leading to a tremendous schism from which the state has never recovered. About 75% of the year 1986's shooters were gone by 1990.

It is difficult to obtain silhouette guns in CA UNLESS you are a committed (novice or verteran) silhouette shooter attending all the matches where guns might be available, or keeping an ear to the grapevine to hear of upcoming guns. But it is true that there are no new purchases being made and the potential flow on new shooters is greatly diminished. But that hasn't caused a tremendous decline at this time. GZ

[michbob]

Hmmmm....Boneheads and low-grade morons.  Feel the love.  I cringe when I think that someone new to the shooting sports who juuust might be intriged by nocking down metal critters might stumble upon this thread.

GENTLEMEN.  Might I be so bold as to suggest any personal bad blood be kept off of the forum?  This is supposed to be about the shooting, not grudges.

Sincerely,
Michbob.

[K2]

HI Michbob

Shooting is what I wish to promote including the fellows that like to shoot over the counter guns like I do.  Unfortunately those of us who like to shoot common handguns are considered "plinkers" and not serious "competitors".  I absolutely believe there is serious competition to be had with a mass produced affordable gun.  Be it a marlin rifle or a Smith and Wesson handgun.  

Some of the established association members are trying to sabotage a new association before it gets up and running.  Nothing new there.  

We are looking for what folks are interested in what the IHMSA and the NRA versions of the games are not offering.  For Rifle there will be a budget category for autoloaders that will include the 10/22 Ruger, Model 60 Marlin etc.  These will be guns that have barrels of the Manufacture of the gun in the sporter weight diameters.  The guns sell in the millions so are extremely available etc.  

Pretty simple  idea that puts the emphasis on the shooters skill and less on the equipment.  Some think that is a radical idea, others like it.  Other ideas that have come forward is a paper postal match for offical sanction to accomodate those people who do not have a steel match within hundreds of miles of them.  Steel is a lot of fun but it does take a minimum amount of people to run successfully.  Currently in the IHMSA if you do not shoot in a sanctioned match for 3 entries in the year you are barred from participating in any Championship matches, and those entries have to be in each discipline you wish to enter Big Bore, Small bore, AIR and Field Pistol.  So if a fellow didn't have a type of match in his area he has to give up shooting that at a Championship match.  I think that is silly.  

As you said this should be about promoting shooting and marksmanship and that is where I am putting my efforts.  I think it does a disservice to say that people that shoot 10/22's or Smith's are just plinkers and don't care about marksmanship.  Some just want to throw mud.

Kelly

Immmm....Boneheads and low-grade morons.  Feel the love.  I cringe when I think that someone new to the shooting sports who juuust might be intriged by nocking down metal critters might stumble upon this thread.

GENTLEMEN.  Might I be so bold as to suggest any personal bad blood be kept off of the forum?  This is supposed to be about the shooting, not grudges.

Sincerely,
Michbob.[/quote]

[volleyman]

ARTICLE XIII.

SUSPENSION / EXPULSION / IMPEACHMENT

Section 1.   If any member is found guilty of any conduct, which in the opinion of the Board of Directors is prejudicial to the interests of the corporation, the Board of Directors shall have the power, by resolution, to censure, place on probation, suspend or expel the member from the corporation.  

King Kelly or Tinkerbell:  :roll:
 Please read the above IHMSA bylaw. By starting and promoting a new organization that offers classes that duplicate existing IHMSA handgun classes you are reducing the revenue the IHMSA receives. That is an interest of the corporation. If you would only offer classes that IHMSA does not, you may be OK. Such as rifle classes. Or pistol classes for guns in excess of 6 pounds or longer than 15" barrels. Any gun under those specs could not compete in that class as that would be a duplicate of the IHMSA class. As the Alaska IHMSA state director you have to lookout for IHMSA's interests along with the shooters in your state. As it stands now you are only looking out for "King Kellys" interests. If you have such strong beliefs that your new organization can be the savior of silhouette, then why not cut all your ties with such terrible organizations as IHMSA and NRA and in few years one of us can say "I told you so".....

If you do offer a (no weight limit) Unlimited class I would be interested in joining, as I have this 50 BMG pistol project on hold waiting for some place to shoot it. Hope you use very, very, thick T1......... :twisted:

[ihmsa70]

Why don't all you guys get off Kelly's butt.  At least he is trying to promote silhouette shooting.  What the hell are you doing for the sport beside pissing and moaning?
Clyde

[K2]

Hi Steve

Yes I am aware of the rule put in place to silence Jim Harris a few years ago.  The board found that they couldn't get rid of Jim under the old bylaws so they added Article XIII which was modeled after the book Catch 22.  

Under your depriving IHMSA revenue logic any MD that conducts a dual sanctioned match would be guilty as well.  Same for those who have side matches for 1/5 scale.   All of this takes away from the sanction fees.  Of course if the board wants sanction fees from 1/5 scale all they need do is sanction it.  

As a representative of the members in my state I am putting forward their wishes for a simpler less equipment driven couple of areas of the sport such as we had with AIR Production.  They desire a functional Jr. Division becasue like John Fouts they see that it was needed 15 years ago and is one of the reasons the average age of the membership continues to get older.  

The NRA is a great association, one which actively promotes the teaching of basic marksmanship skills.  I have not attacked the IHMSA membership only the lack of leadership skills of the Board.  as a member I asked for an audited financial statement and am still waiting.  

Instead of attacking on a personal level why not simply debate the idea of a over the counter only category.   Without Ruger and Smith etc. involved in a big way we are going nowhere.  Without these big players California would not have any new handguns imported into their state.  The small shops cannot afford to have there guns destroyed in the so called safety testing, only the big manufactures can.  Currently we are saying shoot what you have and upgrade later.  I am saying there is demand for a few areas where it is "Shoot what you have and there is no need to upgrade".  Simple idea.  

I am supported by the Alaska group because they see first hand all the effort I put in to keeping the sport going here.  They know I work directly with the youth who will be the shooters of tomorrow.  They see the entries I give up in order to work with the new guys and show them how to spot, and work on the basics.  

If stating the obvious is bad then I guess that is the way it is.  

ARTICLE XIII.

SUSPENSION / EXPULSION / IMPEACHMENT

Section 1.   If any member is found guilty of any conduct, which in the opinion of the Board of Directors is prejudicial to the interests of the corporation, the Board of Directors shall have the power, by resolution, to censure, place on probation, suspend or expel the member from the corporation.  

King Kelly or Tinkerbell:  :roll:
 Please read the above IHMSA bylaw. By starting and promoting a new organization that offers classes that duplicate existing IHMSA handgun classes you are reducing the revenue the IHMSA receives. That is an interest of the corporation. If you would only offer classes that IHMSA does not, you may be OK. Such as rifle classes. Or pistol classes for guns in excess of 6 pounds or longer than 15" barrels. Any gun under those specs could not compete in that class as that would be a duplicate of the IHMSA class. As the Alaska IHMSA state director you have to lookout for IHMSA's interests along with the shooters in your state. As it stands now you are only looking out for "King Kellys" interests. If you have such strong beliefs that your new organization can be the savior of silhouette, then why not cut all your ties with such terrible organizations as IHMSA and NRA and in few years one of us can say "I told you so".....

If you do offer a (no weight limit) Unlimited class I would be interested in joining, as I have this 50 BMG pistol project on hold waiting for some place to shoot it. Hope you use very, very, thick T1......... :twisted:

[mugs]

Kelly
Since Bev and I were the only other Alaskan shooters with Lee McDanial at the Internationals and I don't remember him being mistreated please share your information with the rest of us.
Mugs

[volleyman]

Why don't all you guys get off Kelly's butt.  At least he is trying to promote silhouette shooting.  What the hell are you doing for the sport beside pissing and moaning?
Clyde

Well Clyde:

Jim has won the award for recruiting the most members in a year many times. He is the most helpful person when it come to sharing his wealth of silhouette information. He has wrote numerous articles on silhouette in many publications. He has had trouble with some of the old ex-leadership of IHMSA, but he has stuck with us (when he could of went off and tried to start a new silhouette organization) and has worked to build a better IHMSA. He has worked with the shooting industry to better our sport. That is just the tip of the iceberg of what Jim has done for the sport of silhouette.

I am an officer of MSA. (Minnesota silhouette association) one of, if not the most active state silhouette groups. I have put together professional displays to introduce silhouette at the largest gunshows in our area. MSA has put on new shooter clinics for 17 years now. I have started two new ranges, held new shooter clinics, built auto reset targets to use at those ranges. I have designed and built silhouette equiptment that makes it possible to improve your scores in silhouette. Unlike Kelly, most silhouette shooters want to improve their scores. I offer a sight system for a very accurate pistol (Daisy 747) that comes from the factory with a very poor factory sight. The manufacture (Daisy) stated it had no plan to ever offer improved sights as a factory option.

Clyde, just for your information. Kelly is only doing this for Kelly. Because the members and directors of IHMSA thought that his rules needed to be more in line with other IHMSA rules, He has been on a 9 month hissy-fit because he lost the vote. Jim and I and countless others have had enough of his continuous "Pissing and Moaning" these last 9 months and can take no more of his one-sided postings. Clyde, join his soon to fail organization if you want to throw away some good money. There are some questions you should ask first....Ask him if there will be an election of Officers in his new organization? Will the members have any power in changing the rules he's writing? Who will be in charge of the money you send him? What ranges are offering his events? You will have a nice long drive from Texas to Alaska to shoot a match.

[volleyman]

Under your depriving IHMSA revenue logic any MD that conducts a dual sanctioned match would be guilty as well.  Same for those who have side matches for 1/5 scale.   All of this takes away from the sanction fees.  


  1/5 scale small bore is not an IHMSA event yet. Same for a field pistol freestyle event. Go ahead offer those and rifle events. There would be no conflict of interest, until such time as IHMSA offers the same classes.
Please tell me with a straight face, when you are recruiting new members, you will portray IHMSA in the same positive light as your organization. The organization that you have a financial interest in. When you agreed to be the IHMSA Alaska state director you agreed to put IHMSA interests in front of your own misguided ones. You can not serve two masters...Pick one.  
  I would not be surprized if this comes up at the annual meeting in Tusco. I'm sure you will be there to explain how you can continue as the  Alaska state director and that there is no conflict of interest...

[braud357]

Concerning 1/5 scale SB and sanction fees. At my match (Ascension Silhouette, Gonzales LA) we shoot 1/5 scale (or Runts), AND, I send IHMSA the $1.00 sanction fee, just like the "approved" categories.

[Gun Zorro]

I too share a concern for new shooters who may wander onto this board and see the divisiveness and back-and-forth debate. But I am far more concerned about Kelly spouting untruths and misquotes to suit his purposes, which as we are finding, have little to do with expanding silhouette. If those were his motives, he could do so within the existing silhouette organizations, both of which encourage shooters to "bring what they got" off-the-shelf equipment -- fully sanctioned by both. New shooters coming across Kelly's distortions will think IHMSA and NRA discourage the use of off-the-shelf guns, and to that end he is doing the sport a disservice. To start another organization is Kelly's aim, but only because he can't get his way in existing organizations. As Steve said, I have weathered quite a few ups and down in the official bodies and I have held on to my hat and my head. Many of the ideas I have promoted have been accepted into the rules, and many of my past opponents have drifted into the sunset rather than bend a little and enjoy the sport.  I can't see how Kelly can possibly maintain his position of IHMSA State Director when he is undermining the concept of the organization. Even if he has the blessing of his state membership, he can't go against the better interests of IHMSA and still be a Director. He is directly challenging the authority of IHMSA as a sanctioning body and may have his Directorship revoked. GZ

[K2]

Hi Mugs

Andy, Al, Tom, Gene all told me that his all cast bullet victory was virtually ignored.  Gene is going thru his old papers to show me the International articles from that time period at which time I will make my own conclusions.  Currently this is hearsay to me as I was not in the IHMSA at the time.  This is what the fellows that stayed here in Alaska and continue to shoot Silhouettte have related to me.  Appearently Lee gave up Silhouette after he won and now is shooting Shotgun and doing very well in the Kenai.  If you were there did this milestone get the attention it deserved?  

Kelly
Since Bev and I were the only other Alaskan shooters with Lee McDanial at the Internationals and I don't remember him being mistreated please share your information with the rest of us.
Mugs

[K2]

Hi Clyde

What Steve fails to recognize is that as it comes the Daisy shoots perfect scores.  Why would Daisy change it a 40 is a 40?  He also won't admit that Richard Kiesov shots better groups with the Daisy sights than Steve can shoot with his $140 sight set up.  Steve is a good shooter no doubt but even I can shoot within 1% of his scores using a non match adjustable sighted Crosman 1377, and I am not that good!  However I don't blame my equipment when I miss a target I blame my marksmanship skills.  Sure better equipment makes the game easier, is that what we are trying to do?  I believe that is what Unlimited is for.    

Daisy gets no promotional boost from people altering their guns.  A whole cottage industry has grown up around custom Rugers, Crosmans, etc.  But it is micro fraction of the industry success that the major gun manufactures have built up by bringing us very good accuracy at extremely affordable prices.  

Why don't all you guys get off Kelly's butt.  At least he is trying to promote silhouette shooting.  What the hell are you doing for the sport beside pissing and moaning?
Clyde

Well Clyde:

Jim has won the award for recruiting the most members in a year many times. He is the most helpful person when it come to sharing his wealth of silhouette information. He has wrote numerous articles on silhouette in many publications. He has had trouble with some of the old ex-leadership of IHMSA, but he has stuck with us (when he could of went off and tried to start a new silhouette organization) and has worked to build a better IHMSA. He has worked with the shooting industry to better our sport. That is just the tip of the iceberg of what Jim has done for the sport of silhouette.

I am an officer of MSA. (Minnesota silhouette association) one of, if not the most active state silhouette groups. I have put together professional displays to introduce silhouette at the largest gunshows in our area. MSA has put on new shooter clinics for 17 years now. I have started two new ranges, held new shooter clinics, built auto reset targets to use at those ranges. I have designed and built silhouette equiptment that makes it possible to improve your scores in silhouette. Unlike Kelly, most silhouette shooters want to improve their scores. I offer a sight system for a very accurate pistol (Daisy 747) that comes from the factory with a very poor factory sight. The manufacture (Daisy) stated it had no plan to ever offer improved sights as a factory option.

Clyde, just for your information. Kelly is only doing this for Kelly. Because the members and directors of IHMSA thought that his rules needed to be more in line with other IHMSA rules, He has been on a 9 month hissy-fit because he lost the vote. Jim and I and countless others have had enough of his continuous "Pissing and Moaning" these last 9 months and can take no more of his one-sided postings. Clyde, join his soon to fail organization if you want to throw away some good money. There are some questions you should ask first....Ask him if there will be an election of Officers in his new organization? Will the members have any power in changing the rules he's writing? Who will be in charge of the money you send him? What ranges are offering his events? You will have a nice long drive from Texas to Alaska to shoot a match.

[K2]

GZ

The board can't even get the audit of the books to happen (how long are we supposed to wait?) nor get the minutes of the annual meeting out in a timely fashion. We haven't even seen the minutes from last years yet, nearly a year later!  We have things going on such as fully expensing long term assets in the year they are purchased which majorly distorts financial reality.  Yes targets do last more than one match, and so does PA systems etc.  The Board should have much more important things to occupy their time than worring over a new silhouette association that will be promoting tripple sanction so that members without a current match in their location might have a chance to shoot again.  If however they do spend time on me instead of on the truly important functions of their office it will be telling.  Desiring an opportunity to vote in a general membership vote isn't asking too much either.  Nobody would put the notice of the vote and the deadline for the vote in the same issue unless they just don't understand basic parlamentary proceedures.  Surely things can be done better than has been the case in the last few years.  

I too share a concern for new shooters who may wander onto this board and see the divisiveness and back-and-forth debate. But I am far more concerned about Kelly spouting untruths and misquotes to suit his purposes, which as we are finding, have little to do with expanding silhouette. If those were his motives, he could do so within the existing silhouette organizations, both of which encourage shooters to "bring what they got" off-the-shelf equipment -- fully sanctioned by both. New shooters coming across Kelly's distortions will think IHMSA and NRA discourage the use of off-the-shelf guns, and to that end he is doing the sport a disservice. To start another organization is Kelly's aim, but only because he can't get his way in existing organizations. As Steve said, I have weathered quite a few ups and down in the official bodies and I have held on to my hat and my head. Many of the ideas I have promoted have been accepted into the rules, and many of my past opponents have drifted into the sunset rather than bend a little and enjoy the sport.  I can't see how Kelly can possibly maintain his position of IHMSA State Director when he is undermining the concept of the organization. Even if he has the blessing of his state membership, he can't go against the better interests of IHMSA and still be a Director. He is directly challenging the authority of IHMSA as a sanctioning body and may have his Directorship revoked. GZ