Revolver Shooters Idea's, need your 2 cents on this

[K2]

Thanks for helping out.   I don't shoot revovler because I saw it as a game for FA's if you aspired to make it to the top so don't know if the following idea would be a good one.

Revolver (freestyle) is that only entry that requires a blast shield for safety due to the barrel cylinder gap being next to the leg in creedmoor or dead frog.  

The blast shield could be eliminated altogether if you kept the barrel cylinder gap forward of your body parts.  To do this freestyle would require a different position such as kneeling with on arm supported on the knee.  This would depress top scores of course but would do so equally for all revolver shooters.  There are other positions that no doubt could be used as well that the revolver could be shot safely without a blast shield.  

Blast shields in general have been a area of controversy when used in the other freestyle entries when used with single shots and bolt guns.  They are used by some as a shooting aid (suade side out for more grip etc. and do not need to be used for safety.  I am starting up a new silhouette game and need to know this:

Would you shoot in a game where blast shields are simply not allowed for anyone even if this meant slightly lower scores?  

Anyone who hunts with a revolver doesn't carry a blast shield with them in the field and uses some position other than creedmoor, so why not in silhouette also?

Let me know your reasoning as well as I want the new game to be more inclusive, and getting the revolvers out in front of the body parts will mean the shorter 6 and 7 1/2" guns will be safer to use as well and there are a lot more 6 to 7 1/2" revolvers than all the 10 inch revolvers ever made.  I want to see these shorter guns back in the silhouette games as well.

[IronMonkey]

I say let us have them but only be able to use with revolver.  I don't like getting hot gases and powder in my other leg. Honestly I say they really don't add to a grip at all.  I like have that extra layer of protection, God forbid something should blow up or something.  Dan

[K2]

Thanks for the input Ironmonkey   Restricting the blast shields to "Revolver" only is a strong  possibilty.  I am a bit confused how you would get hot gasses on your other leg if you shot with the barrel/cylinder gap in front of all body parts though.  We have one shooter in our club that shoots the old Elmer Kieth style with the revolver shot one handed and the arm on top of his knee and off hand behind the body for support, sort of a reclined sitting position.  He has thousands of rounds fired this way and never uses a blast shield.  Shoots to the mid to upper 20's this way, which isn't bad considering he can't see well, has heart problems and isn't very flexible.

If a gun actually blows up a leather blast shield will be of small value to stop a large piece of metal such as a piece of cylinder.   The other problem is when you are shooting in a tightly packed line and the shooter has a blast shield but the fellow next to him is unprotected.  Getting the barrel cylinder gap as far forward towards the firing line protects the other shooters as well.  

Keep those ideas coming!  We want to get this thing right from the beginning so that the rules don't need to be revisited and can concentrate all the energy on growth and promotion, and pats on the back for the membership.  

 

I say let us have them but only be able to use with revolver.  I don't like getting hot gases and powder in my other leg. Honestly I say they really don't add to a grip at all.  I like have that extra layer of protection, God forbid something should blow up or something.  Dan

[ihmsa70]

I would be perfectly happy if the creedmore position was eliminated altogether.  As you said, this game was started as a hunting game.  I've been hunting with handguns for probably 55 years and have never shot anything from the creedmore position.
The first internationals held in El Paso in l976 allowed only standing, kneeling or sitting.  I shot a 17 with a Smith model 25 in .45 ACP.  I've gone the custom gun route and am now back to shooting with the common guns, scores are lower, but I enjoy it just as much.
Good luck with your project, I think you are going in the right direction.
Clyde

[IronMonkey]

I got the powder burns shooting a 357 max dan wesson.  Had the front "calf" shield but not the big flap.  Right in between the right leg is a convient gap with how I had to hold the DW.  Little bee stings with each shot.  Plus the muzzle blast kicking up dirt and the wind blowing it back into my face.  Plus the weather was humid and 110 degrees.  But boy was that fun.  I like the extra position because I am not that flexible with the legs and I sure as crap can't shoot standing up.  Dan

[K2]

Thanks for the clarification IronMonkey     Creedmoor without the side shield is tough on that off leg to be sure!  

In the current games Revolver is the least shot freestyle entry perhaps due to the absolute need for Blast shields in the creedmoor position and I also believe due to the percieved need to shoot a FA to reach the top.  Both add expense to the game that really do not need to exist if one we eliminate allowing the barrel/cylinder gap to be behind a cone of danger for the body parts (the  45 degree cone that must be free of flesh and bone) and two if we do not make the Rugers, Smiths and other truly mass produced revolvers go head to head with the custom house guns.   I believe that Revolver should be one of the most popular entries if we make a few changes that encourage their use.  My main goal is to make a popular game not necessarily the "best in terms of scores".  Silhouette has never seen higher average scores than it is experiencing lately and yet participation continues to fall in what is a really fun activity.  This makes no sense except if we made some mistakes that are keeping people from taking up the game.  I absolutely believe that one HUGE mistake was to bias the games toward super custom equipment that hardly anyone actually owns.  I would rather have 10 % of the Ruger owners and TC owners than 100% of the FA owners and MOA owners to use two examples.  The FA's and MOA's are excellent pieces of equipment that anyone would be proud to own but most pistol shooters simply wont spend that much money.  Another thing that will happen if we do away with creedmoor in Revolver is that the gap between gun manufactures equipment will narrow.  You see this in Standing where the TC is very competitive against the MOA's and BF's because there is much more emphasis on the shooters ability than in freestyle where the emphasis shifts to the equipment to separate the top scores.  

I know that the change of position will most likely reduce the scores but the question is if it reduces the scores across the board in Revolver will anyone mind?

Thanks again for keeping the dialog going as I wasn't sure why you were getting hit with gas and debree  

I got the powder burns shooting a 357 max dan wesson.  Had the front "calf" shield but not the big flap.  Right in between the right leg is a convient gap with how I had to hold the DW.  Little bee stings with each shot.  Plus the muzzle blast kicking up dirt and the wind blowing it back into my face.  Plus the weather was humid and 110 degrees.  But boy was that fun.  I like the extra position because I am not that flexible with the legs and I sure as crap can't shoot standing up.  Dan

[K2]

Hi Clyde  

I don't really have a problem with custom guns and think they should be included but not against truly mass produced guns.  That was where I think the NRA and IHMSA made the first wrong turn if they wanted to have a large membership and big match participation.  

Creedmoor doesn't bother me as a competition but I agree with you it is all but useless for hunting with Revolvers and anywhere you have taller grass or bushes etc.  I have hunted deer and small game both, brought home game with both and never used an on the back position.  With a rifle with the exception of varmints I have never fired a hunting shot prone either for the same reasons and get a kick out of all the "hunters" in the late summer/early fall "sighting in" their rifles from a bench with a front rest.  Most don't even know where the gun shoots if they get off their butts and shoot offhand  :wink:

Thanks for the vote of confindence in taking Silhouette in the simpler direction.  AIR proved that folks will buy inexpensive equipment and use it well (lots of INT scores shot with box stock Daisy's).  I think they had to change this or the other games might have started to go simpler also and lots of folks are too attached to their special guns and sights etc.  

While I have your attention do you feel like I do that in Field Pistol the first line of the rules said it all a Straight Walled pistol cartridge of 1.29" or less?  I think when they allowed the .22 Hornet rifle cartridge it sent all the real guns out of the game.  I would rather have 10% of the .38/.357 shooters involved in silhouette over 100% of those who own a handgun chambered in .22 hornet.  That was another huge mistake in my opinion as was not making FP a full discipline just like Big Bore and Small Bore.  

Let me know what you think and smack me in the head when you think I am on a wrong track.  I have a small group doing the same off the Internet and we are having some good debates on what will actually bring folks to a match.  40x40's aren't it either    

I would be perfectly happy if the creedmore position was eliminated altogether.  As you said, this game was started as a hunting game.  I've been hunting with handguns for probably 55 years and have never shot anything from the creedmore position.
The first internationals held in El Paso in l976 allowed only standing, kneeling or sitting.  I shot a 17 with a Smith model 25 in .45 ACP.  I've gone the custom gun route and am now back to shooting with the common guns, scores are lower, but I enjoy it just as much.
Good luck with your project, I think you are going in the right direction.
Clyde

[K2]

Clyde Help

See if you can find a revolver shooter that does or did shoot creedmoor and is will to try shooting from a higher position where a blast shield isn't needed such as we have described here sitting with arms on knees or the Elmer Kieth style one handed reclined sitting etc.  I would like to know how his scores compare with his known ability creedmoor.  This will be important when setting the point brakes for the classes.  

Speaking of classes, most MD's I know would rather see 4 instead of 6  I personally do not see that much need for C and B classes because people are only there for a very short while, it thins the competition and adds to the expense if you give out trophies.  What do you think about only 4 classes per category?  As a side not UAS doesn't seem to be suffering and it only has 3 classes AA,AAA and INT.  Why did Pro need 6 back in time?  I wasn't there to have heard the debate.