What's the quickest bad guy stopper (different viewpoint)?

[DangYankee]

According to EINSTEIN's theory of relativity, Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. Yes!
Well, if a mass is projected (no matter what weight or diameter)
and this mass creates an energy of say 500 foot pounds
that it will impact it's target with. Then according to Einstein, The force on the "Sending end" would also have to be 500 foot pounds. (Equal but opposite). Since we all know that even a weapon with 20-25 pounds
of rearward thrust gives a serious kick, I would say that something is seriously wrong with Einstein's theory,(doubtful) or that the formula's
that someone came up with for Balistic energy is very flawed! (Likely)
The point I was making in the other post was that there is not a solution
to the question in the original post!  Science can't even agree!
There are so many variables that can effect the outcome of a person
being shot and how fast they are incapacitated from it that it would simply be impossible to create a "Formula" to figure it out. (Body weight, fat to muscle ratio, Water/Tissue saturation density, overall health, State of mind, Chemical/drug alteration, The list could be almost endless.
People can debate this issue until Lucifer needs snowshoes, and they will still not agree.  
The horse has died from the beating it has taken, so further flogging is pointless.

[williamlayton]

If all energy were held together then what you say would be true--Fact is, much of the energy is lost,  in both directions, sides, ect. It is not all forward and backward. Energy such as you are thinking of is only a small protion of the created energy of the explosion.
Now the energy of impact is pretty much the same energy you are speaking of except it has no or little opposite reaction, thus the theory of speed vs mass and which does the most damage, That said, if there is no penetration then all the energy is expanded out side the wound, to which effect is little. Only if the inside of the wound can absorb the energy is there much effect.
Blessings

[Swat Dude]

According to EINSTEIN's theory of relativity, Every action must have an equal and opposite reaction. Yes!
Well, if a mass is projected (no matter what weight or diameter)
and this mass creates an energy of say 500 foot pounds
that it will impact it's target with. Then according to Einstein, The force on the "Sending end" would also have to be 500 foot pounds. (Equal but opposite). Since we all know that even a weapon with 20-25 pounds
of rearward thrust gives a serious kick, I would say that something is seriously wrong with Einstein's theory,(doubtful) or that the formula's
that someone came up with for Balistic energy is very flawed! (Likely)

Sir, again the only argument or formula that is flawed is yours. Look at your statement above. You have confused ENERGY (foot pounds) with FORCE (pounds) and have interchanged the two values when comparing 500 to 20-25. The Kinetic Energy of the bullet is equal to 1/2 the mass of the bullet times the velocity of the bullet squared. The ENERGY of the bullet may be 500 ft. lbs. in your example cited above but it does not take 500 pounds of FORCE to get the bullet moving and the equal and opposite force on your hand is not 500 lbs. The FORCE on the gun is equal to the mass of the bullet times the acceleration assuming constant acceleration (please see my post above). The force required to accelarate the bullets I mention in my post above can be calculated with the equations supplied, but you must convert bullet grains into pounds and barrel inches into feet so that all variables have the same unit of measurement.

Also, one further thought, our department discontinued the use of HK MP5's as our tactical entry weapon and replaced them with suppressed AR-15's when tests revealed that the 9mm round penetrated many more thicknesses of drywall than the .223 round which moves at more than double the velocity of the 9mm. Interestingly enough, the 9mm would not penetrate body armor but the .223 would easily rip through a level III vest!

[ButlerFord45]

Until we find a much better propellant than our current offerings, bullet speeds approaching 186 thousand miles per second is in our distant future thus making Mister Einstine's theory a moot point.
However, Mr Newton's Second Law of Motion that we seem to be talking about may be more easily visualized if you consider it in the terms of acceleration of masses, ie how much FELT recoil does a bow have when an arrow is released?
Bullets do tissue damage.  Obviously the bigger the hole at the same depth of penetration the more damage will have been done.  Again obvious that complete penetration (all the way through) makes the most efficient wound channel.
Modern bullets are designed to make a bigger than calibre hole by expanding at the nose portion of the bullet, but this only works within a given velocity range for a given bullet.  Too fast and the bullet disintegrates, too slow and it doesen't open and acts like a solid.  The ideal bullet is one that doubles it's calibre and passes all the way through.
Size does matter, body tissue is resilient and will minimize the effect of small diameter intrusions.
The organs in the body are not what "drive" the body. The central nervous system does.  There are historical accounts of beheadings where the severed head continued to move the eyes, blink, cry, flare the nostrils and move the mouth and lips in what appeared to be an attempt to speak.  The brain does not die until it runs out of oxygen.  While shock may cause the brain to shut down conscious thought, it is still alive.  Adrenalin (natural or artificial) serves to increase oxygen to the brain thus making the subject "harder to kill".  Some drugs (modern recreational) reduce the brains capacity to shut down conscious thought, ie the opium high of the Chinese hoards, while at the same time inducing a an euphoric state, or perceived invincibility.
The only true one shot stopper is the one that will separate the brain from motor function above where the nerves for the arms depart the spinal column.  From medulla to brachial plexus.
This makes the selection of defensive weapon a simple choice:
The largest calibre(see note 1) you can shoot, accurately and repeatedly.
That is small enough you can carry, concealed if necessary.
Action type is personal preference.



Note 1:  some bullet/speed/weapon combinations are repeated accuracy prohibitive for some of us.
Simple physics indicates that:
Velocity has the most marked effect on recoil.
To facilitate lack of velocity an increase in mass will will increase momentum.

[williamlayton]

BF has spoken! :-)
morning
Blessings

[ButlerFord45]

Howdy will!

Now just how do I take that?

[Rick Bohnenkamp]

Stopping power?  How about the laser beam bouncing off the BG's chest?  If that doesn't work place the light just above the pie hole and squeeze.

[williamlayton]

BF
As a well put statement of fact.
Raining
Blessings

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Wow. You guys are getting waaaaaaaaay over my empty little head!  :eek:

I just thought the best bullet was the one that went where you wanted it to go. Shot placement. Then, I ain't no Einstein, or Newton. (More like and old and ugly Joey Tribbiani!)
 

[Brett]

Statistically speaking I believe that the .357 mag. still has accounted for more stops than any other handgun caliber.  However this could very well be due to several factors such as it has been around much longer than say the .40 caliber, 10mm, 357 Sig., etc.  Another factor is that until relatively recently it was embraced by most law enforcement agencies. This has a two fold influence on the stat's.  First being more .357 mag's have been used in shootings than other calibers and secondly the bullet manufacturers have put more R&D time into the .357 mag. than just about any other caliber because it was law enforcements caliber of choice.  With auto loaders being the new gun of choice for law enforcement I think we will soon see the tide turning.  IMHO shot placement is the biggest factor not bullet weight or bullet speed. By the way, If I recall correctly, the mob's favorite assassination round was the .22 short to the back of the head.  I understand it worked very well.  :wink:

[Old Griz]

:cb2: "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics." Mark Twain.

This debate will never die because people can twist what ever data they chose to fit their argument. Heck, according to the laws of aerodynamics a bumblebee can't fly.

 :-D Have fun yawl. I'm sticking with my .45ACP/.357 combination. I think either one will work!

[DPRinks]

It is possible the .44-40 and the .45 Long Colt have taken down more people than all others due to the time span of their usage, referring to handguns in the US only.
In penetration, the design of the bullet is the most important part.
We recently tried some 150gr Jacketed flat point .30-30 bullets in a .308 at 2800 fps and a 160gr hard cast gc bullet at 2000fps on 18" of tightly packed newspaper, none of the 150 jacketed got more than 12" in the stack, all but one of the 160gr cast penetrated all 18". the one cast that was recovered had expander to .55-.60 diameter and still weighed 152gr.
 

[cam69conv]

WOOOOHHOOOOOOOO Imma jump in da pool on dis one  Heres just a lil bitty question fer ya brain childs out der....I shoot a deer with a .444 marlin 265 grain hornady movin about 2200 or so fps...Deer fall down go boom....I shoot a deer with a .25.06 movin around 2900 fps hit deer same spot...Deer run wayyyyyy off then fall down go boom...Hmmmmmmmm lemmi screatch ma brain on dis a min...Looks like Bigger slower dun better dont it??...Im with the shock value maself...Heres another lil one fer ya....Take a bowlin ball n drop it off a 20 story buildin on a punkin...wut happens??? Now drop a marble off same building...Wut happens??? Any questions so fer?? mass + speed + accuracy How can this be confusing??? Whats gonna do more damage?? the Biggest cal you can carry and shoot accuratly is the best period..I personally like the 10mm but Im also a pretty big feller and can handle the recoild and get it back on target quickly but for most people Id have to say the .40 with some good hollow points will do the trick quite nicely...

[RVER]

Switching off the CNS is the only instant stop.

A home run swing with a good 'ol Louisville Slugger, aimed at the brain pan, will switch off the Central Nervous System pretty quick.

The .32 Auto is the lightest recoiling caliber that will reliably get into the CNS target area. Folks, we're talking about quickly firing and repeatedly hitting a baseball sized target area from about 3' away, under stress...

Hits count, but only fast accurate hits get you home, stay focused on your front sight.

Later,

[Mohawk]

Which ever one hits the aorta.

[LMM]

Never bring a handgun to a gunfight!

[Van/TX]

Nine shot .22 revolver......Van

[leverfan]

Nine shot .22 revolver......Van

I went to college with a guy that was shot in the head with a 22 lr.  He majored in art, so maybe there was some brain damage, but he was very alive.

Reader's Digest published a story about another fellow with a skull stout enough to turn aside the 22 lr.

There's at least one mafia hit man that survived being shot in the head at point blank range with a 22.  He beat the living %*$# out of the shooter, and lived to testify against the mob.

I worked with a fellow that was shot with a 22 lr while on the job.  Treated and released.

Yes, the 22 lr often works, and if you put a bullet right up someone's nasal passage, it will do the trick.  However, sometimes, you can shoot someone right in the forehead with one, and just cause a flesh wound.  The bullet can travel between the scalp and the skull, never going through the bone.  I personally know more than one person that has proved this.  If I shoot a threat between the eyes, I want to be sure that my chosen cartridge will work.  The 22 lr is pretty dang far from being a sure thing.

Van, do yourself a favor, and look at .32 ACP and larger rounds.  9mm and larger would be even better.

[DWARREN123]

MACK truck at 70 MPH, will stop most people.

[leverfan]

MACK truck at 70 MPH, will stop most people.

What kind of holster do you use to pack that comfortably? :-D

Is the transmission semi-automatic?

[Swat Dude]

WOOOOHHOOOOOOOO Imma jump in da pool on dis one  Heres just a lil bitty question fer ya brain childs out der....I shoot a deer with a .444 marlin 265 grain hornady movin about 2200 or so fps...Deer fall down go boom....I shoot a deer with a .25.06 movin around 2900 fps hit deer same spot...Deer run wayyyyyy off then fall down go boom...Hmmmmmmmm lemmi screatch ma brain on dis a min...Looks like Bigger slower dun better dont it??...Im with the shock value maself...Heres another lil one fer ya....Take a bowlin ball n drop it off a 20 story buildin on a punkin...wut happens??? Now drop a marble off same building...Wut happens??? Any questions so fer?? mass + speed + accuracy How can this be confusing??? Whats gonna do more damage?? the Biggest cal you can carry and shoot accuratly is the best period..I personally like the 10mm but Im also a pretty big feller and can handle the recoild and get it back on target quickly but for most people Id have to say the .40 with some good hollow points will do the trick quite nicely...

Once again you guys are throwin' a bunch of BS out there that is not substantiated by science. How many grains is you 25.06 bullet? If it is any less than 152 grains, it has less energy than your .444 if your velocities are correct.

Your bowling ball attempt is pretty lame, because a .40cal has 73% the front face area of a .45 cal, not 500 times the face area in your bowling ball has over the marble. Also, Einstein, both the marble and bowling ball are traveling at the same speed when they hit, assuming equal wind resistance and maximum terminal velocity. Gravity accelerates both objects at the exact same rate.  Now, take that same pumpkin and shoot a 7.62x54 round at it. If you can find a piece bigger than 1" around left, I'll make you a pumpkin pie.

[ButlerFord45]

  I had thought this thread had died a horrible death a long time ago!!   :-D
Can't someone come up with something new, or is everyone else suffering from Holiday over stuffing and New Years Hangover?  

[S.S.]

It seems that there is no way to convince some people that
my old 1911 .45 ACP is the greatest one hand fighting tool ever created by the minds of men!
But on the other hand, no one has ever proven to me that it isn't !
Until they do, I think I will stick with it.
If another caliber/gun gives you a warm fuzzy feeling when on a dark street all alone, By all means carry it.

[papajohn428]

If I didn't have any faith in my duty gun, I'd be a fool to show up at work with it.  It may be a lowly 38 Special, but I carry good ammo, practice a lot, and if the time came to do so, could probably place my shots well enough to put the kibosh on a bad guy.  I'm limited to a 38 by local ordinance, which some might see as a handicap.  Maybe it is, (I'd rather have a 357), but since bullet placement matters more than anything else, most of the stopping power equation rests with me.  I know I'm limited to six shots before reloading, and in my own circumstances, ranges are likely to be close.  In two years I've interrupted five felonies in progress, and the fact that a Model 10 Smith was all I had was not a concern.  It's the singer, not the song!  Would I rather have a 45?  No, I'd rather have a 105mm Howitzer, but the 38 will still get it done, as long as I put lead where it's supposed to go!

Papajohn

[AZ223]

I've shot dozens of big feral dogs with ccw pistol loads, and believe me, a 9mm 90 gr gr jhp at  1700 fps beats the hell out of a 230gr jhp .45 at  850 fps.

trank -- I'm curious, why didn't the .45 perform as well? I would have thought the bigger, slower slug would have had better penetration, especially on a big, tough dog.

[Lawdog]

There are too many incidents on record where cartridges like the 9mm, .38 sp., etc., have failed miserably to stop a man.  I have personally seen this happen and have also seen the effects of larger calibers.  Many law enforcement agencies have stopped using the 9mm in favor of the .40 S&W or larger.  I know a number of departments that are switching back to the old reliable .45 auto in favor of the added stopping power it offers.  That is what I issue to all my officers.  Lawdog
 

[while99]

I thought that after the 1986 Miami shootout with the bank robbers, the FBI conducted some tests using the .38 Special, 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP.  Maybe there were some other cartridges in the mix but after 19 years, I just can't remember if there were or not.  IIRC, the 10mm came out on top.  I don't have a copy of the article, nor do I remember all of the comparison tests that were conducted, but it seems to me that the 10mm and .45 caliber delivered better results than the smaller ones.

[gino]

I thought that after the 1986 Miami shootout with the bank robbers, the FBI conducted some tests using the .38 Special, 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP.  Maybe there were some other cartridges in the mix but after 19 years, I just can't remember if there were or not.  IIRC, the 10mm came out on top.  I don't have a copy of the article, nor do I remember all of the comparison tests that were conducted, but it seems to me that the 10mm and .45 caliber delivered better results than the smaller ones.

IIRC the FBI went with the 10mm until they had problems with some of their agents that couldn't handle the recoil & the larger frame guns needed for the 10. Thus was born the .40 Short & Weak.
gino  

[mitchshrader]

I weigh 140 lbs.. and like a mid-power 357 BECAUSE:  the rounds are cheap(ish)  and I can practice a lot,  penetration and "stopping power'' are adequate, and I'm experienced enough with a revolver to feel confident that my first shot will go where I intend.

IF I shot an automatic I'd probably shoot a .357 Sig, being a skinny sort .. but there are some awfully nice .45's out there..

The 'which one is better' is entirely subjective!.  It matters one heck of a lot more which round you can put on target quickly than how powerful it is. For those who are willing to put in the practice, most likely a custom .45 is 'the best'.. but for someone who carries regularly and practices seldom, I'd stick to a .357 with a moderate load. A DA revolver is just a hair quicker "for those of moderate skill" in most cases..

If I was a 200 lb guy I'd shoot a 41 magnum, If I was a 250 lb guy I'd shoot a 44 magnum, (both loaded 'down' a bit from hunting loads) ..

Size counts, personal experience counts, what you LIKE counts.. at least as much as the physics.. sez me.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: Hey! The Louisville Slugger was left off the list again!  :-D