Author Topic: Shooting form?  (Read 759 times)

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Offline TomC1426

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Shooting form?
« on: May 07, 2004, 03:56:40 AM »
This may sound like a really dumb question, but does anyone know a good source for the proper shooting form? I got my new Ultra Varmint .223 about a month ago and my groups are getting worst instead of getting better. I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't shot much in the last 10 years. I'm almost positive that the problem is me and not the gun. Can't seem to get comfortable holding the gun. One time out it feels great and groups improve some, next time out that position doesn't feel right at all. Just so you know, so far I've put about 140 rounds through it.

I think the trigger pull as something to do with my problem because I'll catch myself jerking the gun sometimes. Than again I know when that happens so I believe that form is most of the problem.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Tom

Offline Nightrain52

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Shooting form?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2004, 07:25:30 AM »
One trick you might try is to have a friend go to the range with you and shoot 2 or 3 rounds then hand the gun to your friend while you remain seated at the bench. Have your friend either give you the gun back loaded or unloaded (he makes the choice) unknown by you. Get in your shooting position and fire the gun (you don't know whether it's loaded or not) and have him watch to see if you jerk the trigger or squeeze it off. Do this several times with your friend giving back the gun without you knowing if it's loaded or not. I know the 223 is a light recoiling rifle but this method will also show if you are flinching or not. I hope you are wearing hearing protection because the noise could also cause a flinch. If the trigger is hard to pull this could also cause you to pull the shot. :D  :D
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Offline buckbeast

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Shooting form?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2004, 07:36:59 AM »
Tomc,
I don't know if this will help or not. Shooting from a bench or rest of some sort can make a huge difference. I'm not trying to patronize or act like you don't know anything, but I'll go over the shooting basics I teach all first time shooters that I encounter.

Whatever you do, you will want to do it consistently each and every time out. Whenever you settle in to take a shot you should be comfortable and relaxed. If you are using a scope ensure that you have a full sight picture. You should align your eye 3-5 inches behind the scope and adjust the eye relief if necessary. You should be able to see completely through the scope with out a gray or black circle surrounding your view. If using open sights make a mental picture of how much of the front sight you see when aligning on target. You should align the gun so you see the same amount of sight on each and every shot.

Two things make up the most of the "bad shooters" I have seen that leads to their inability to pattern or group their shots. The first is breathing. I have seen this lead to people shooting from 6-8 inches higher or lower than their point of aim. Example: Align the stock of the gun on your shoulder, and lay the forearm or barrel on an ammo box or the like. Next, hold your breath. Look though the sights or scope and align to be dead-center on the target. Now take your hands off of the forearm or barrel. Now watch target alignment in your sights as you take a couple of normal breaths. You should see your point of aim move up and down past the center of the target. To cure this what you need to do is take a deep breath, hold it, align on your target and then "squeeze" the trigger, before you breath again. If you can't get on target before you feel the need to breathe. Simply relax, breath, and start the process again. The second is trigger pull. Yes, the amount of strength it takes to break the trigger can cause problems. Guns with lowered trigger pulls could be more accurate. However, most beginning shooters don't know how to "squeeze" the trigger. To achieve a trigger "squeeze": place just the first little pad (or tip of) your finger on the trigger. Slowly apply minimal pressure to the rear of the trigger. When the trigger gets past the release point the gun will shoot. THE FIRING OF THE GUN SHOULD SUPRISE YOU. You should not know when the gun will actually go off.

To recap:
Be consistent and relaxed
Watch that breathing
Squeeze not yank

Hopefully this will help you.
Good luck
Buck
Just a country boy from the mountains of PA

Offline scruffy

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Shooting form?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2004, 07:46:30 AM »
I posted this on Mitchells ultra 223 accuracy thread, and cut and pasted it here (too lazy to type over....)  It's just my humble opinions, no one please take objection to it, like all opinions it differs with others, and changes with time.

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Also, the usual, be sure your scope mount hasn't worked loose, rings are tight, butt stock bolt is tight, sand bagged under hinge pin, etc. And these 223's have a 1-12" twist, so in general they like smaller bullets (55 grains and smaller). You might try some more 40-50 grain offerings. How often are you cleaning the barrel? Might try cleaning more and cleaning less. Some barrels like it clean, others like it fowled up a little (not alot...). What optics do you have? For sub moa groups a 6-18 or 6-24 (or 8-32, fixed 40x, etc....) are typically alot better than a typical 3-9x40 scope. Also, try different targets. I have targets laying around with 6" black bulls, 1" black bulls, 1" orange squares, etc. Given the thickness off the crossairs, magnification of the scope, lighting conditions at the range, etc all targets are not all the same, some your eyes will be able to see better. Does the rifle surpise you when you pull the trigger? if so, alot of people will say good, I say bad, I want the rifle to go off when the cross airs are dead center over the bulls eye. Know your trigger and the groups will shrink. What's your shooting position at the bench? Feet, shoulders, etc? Does your cheak/butt stock have the proper cheak weld? You might want to look into a cheak pad if not. Do you have only one sand bag? I like having two, one under the henge pin, one under the butt stock. After lining everything up I hold onto the rear bag with my off hand, not the butt stock. Are you shooting with a full breath in your lungs or have you exhailed first? Most people shoot better with a half full or empty (or near empty) chest of air.

Do you have any friends that are bench shooters that can take you out and look at your shooting position to see if it looks stable, consistant, etc? Also, another set of hands shooting your rifle is always a good indication if it's something the shooters doing wrong or the rifle.
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In addition to above I'd shoulder your rifle in the seated shooting position you use with your eyes closed.  Then open your eyes.  Where are you looking, right down the middle of the scope?  Probably not because these scopes have to be mounted high for hammer clearance.  You might want to look at getting a cheek pad.  The most natural position is the most consistant, a cheek pad will help with that.  If the scope is too low then you need taller mounts.  If the scope is too far forward or back you need to more the scope farther forward or back.  If you can't move it far enough forward or back you need to get offset rings to give you the clearance necesary.  I have a set a weaver offset high rings on one of my nef rifles with a bushnell scope to get it farther back.  

Edit: also, if you have a bad trigger the "surprise" aproach is probably best, actually, it's probably all you have because most heavy triggers also vary a few ounces from shot to shot.  If you have a consistant ultra light "target" trigger, or just a consistant "hunting trigger", being able to pull that last 1/2 ounce and break the trigger at precisely the time the crossairs of you 32x scope and perfectly placed over the center of the bulls eye will win you the big money.  So how far do you want to go with this, better groups or the best they can be?  It's addictive, first you want better groups then you may fall into they must be better yet and better yet.  :wink:  

With triggers there's bad, good, better.  Pull is bad, surprise is much better, precise anticipated exacting squeeze is best, but it takes a really good trigger to "pull it off", pun intended....  :)

later,
scruffy
Hunting is 99% brain, 1% gun

Offline Ditchdigger

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Shooting form?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2004, 10:23:45 AM »
I always rest the forend on the bags, first I place a business card in front of the forend lug to float the barrel, then I dry fire it several times and watch the crosshairs while doing so. If mine is not bedded hard in the bags, the crosshairs will move when the hammer drops. If I rest on the hinge it's harder to keep the crosshairs still . I usually focus on a target at least 300 yds. away to get a true measurement of how much movement you're getting. On the 100 yd. targets it will show no or very little movement. Another thing I do is to go to Walmart, get on the blood pressure machine and pratice lowering my heartrate. This is not hard to do, and it works wonders when you're shooting. If you have never tried this you will think I'm nuts, but once you've tried it you will believe it. Digger
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Offline Wlscott

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Shooting form?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2004, 06:29:43 PM »
Tom, I say to heck with the bags.  Get yourself a good set of shooting sticks.  Go out and shoot at various targets from a good set of sticks and get used to the gun.  Sit "semi cross legged" with your elbows resting on your knees and the rifle resting on the sticks.  This is a very comfortable way to shoot, and most likely the way you'll be shooting in a hunting scenario.  When you get comfortable with the way the gun shoots off of the sticks, then you might lay it on the bench for accuracy testing.  Then again, you may be happy with the way it shoots off of the sticks and not need to.
You haven't hunted......Until you've hunted the hunters

Offline TomC1426

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Thanks Guys
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2004, 11:15:20 PM »
I want to say thanks to everyone for their replies. It has given me something to think about. I know that breathing is a problem because the scope is all over the target. A long time ago, a friend told me to take a deep breath and let out half when ready to shoot. I'm trying this, but maybe it just takes practice to get it right again. The recoil is very light and I don't believe it is causing any problems. The trigger on the other hand is very inconsistent. Seems to go off at different places. I've actually been on the target good when the trigger didn't go off when expected and I've let off to try again. This isn't a big problem at the range, but worries me if it happened in an actual hunting situation. Scope mounts seem ok too.

I was always told not to dry fire a gun. Some of the recommendations here suggest that its ok. If so that would make an excellent practice when not at the range. I'm not seating the gun in the sand bags hard, and there is movement after the shot. I was under the impression that you just laid the gun on the bags as light as possible. I'll make sure that the gun is seat good the next time out and give that a try.

Wlscott, I have a home made set of shooting sticks, but haven't tried them much. Thought it best to get the gun sighted in off bench first. Since that is the actual hunting position, I'll try them out.  I'm fairly tall (6'6") and that will probably put me in a more comfortable position.

Sorry for the long reply but once again you guys are great with advice and give someone lots to consider.

Thanks again,
Tom

Offline safetysheriff

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Shooting form?
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2004, 03:05:28 PM »
I recommend you cover any leather or suede bags with denim to take the friction out of the surface that the forearm is supposed to be resting on.    The rifle should rest on the forearm between the retainer screw and the back of the forearm where there is very little curvature in the wood....otherwise recoil will mess you up.    Control your breathing and remind yourself that the recoil of the .223 is Nothing that you can't master.....you are bigger than the recoil of that rifle.

DO NOT DRY FIRE A HANDI', PER THE OWNER'S BOOKLET.......
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