Author Topic: The stories of abuse and torture (Read 2640 times)

williamlayton · « **on:** May 08, 2004, 01:26:08 AM »

What is your take on the stories of abuse and torture in Iraq ?
Blessings

jgalar · « **Reply #1 on:** May 08, 2004, 03:46:46 AM »

It is typical psycological pow treatment. Taking pictures of it is dang stupid!

magooch · « **Reply #2 on:** May 08, 2004, 06:38:15 AM »

Knowing the over sensitivity of some of the people of this country, it was dang stupid to do anything, but coddle the prisoners. We would be a lot better off not to have taken any prisoners at all. It's time to drop the whole thing in the laps of the Iraqis. We've given them an oportunity to get their country straightened up and now I think we are very much in danger of overstaying our welcome--if we ever were welcome.

In no way do I disagree with the fact that we had to take on Saddam; we did it and the world and we are better off for it, but now it's time to let the Iraqis assume the responsibility of determining their own fate.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #3 on:** May 08, 2004, 07:29:47 AM »

The bigest problem with torture is that people will tell you anything! It may be true, maybe a lie, and if they just don't know they will make something up. Then your question is are your analyst intelligent enough to figure it out before you make another mistake.

I vaguely remember a couple of MI personnel back in '67 who we investigated for rape and mistreatment of detainees. I think they would have gotten out of Leavenworth a few years ago. Torture and mistreatment is just wrong no matter how you look at it. It will just be another scar that has to heal later.

myronman3 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 08, 2004, 09:51:06 AM »

if it saves one american life; so be it. we put our own soldiers through worse treatment than that for training. so i guess i couldnt care less. and i dont think it is a big deal. just another case of the bleeding heart folks who are trying to make something out of nothing. like one said already; sounds to me like s.o.p..

Loader 3009 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 08, 2004, 01:46:26 PM »

The thing is, they are making something out of it. This cannot be un-done. No amount of apologies will satisfy the Muslims and the Kerrys.

The fanatical Muslim leaders are calling for the capture of American and British troops. The males are to have their penises cut off and the women are to be given to the captors as their own personal slaves. This will surely increase dangers to our troops.

I am afraid this campaign is over. The world is against us. Any further involvement will push us even closer to WWIII. It may already be too late.

How can we fight the world when we cannot defeat a third world country?

Lee Garton · « **Reply #6 on:** May 08, 2004, 11:33:36 PM »

This country well never win anther war. Untell the people in this county keep there monthe shut.And let the people do there job over there. It's a good thing we didn't have all these bleeding hearts and s.o.b. around when WW2 was going on. OR the people here woundn't even know what freedom mean's. Now you have alot of democrats that want to take away the gun's from the people in this country. And telling every one it well make this country safer. Witch any one with halfe a brain know's better than to belive that sh-t. The only reson if we walk away from this one were fighting now. Well becaues of the democrat's trying to make president bush look bad at what is going. So they can get people to vote there way this year. They could care less about the men and women dieing for this country as long as they get there way. And if they do you'l see this country go down hill so fast it we'l make your head spin. Between the democrat's and some of the new's station's on t.v. andsome of the judge's doing what ever they want to do in this country. It's already starting, And I can't belive there are so meany people welling to go along with bull sh-t the democat's are feeding them. :x :x :x

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** May 09, 2004, 12:45:42 AM »

Am I hearing approval for such treatment, IF it is true?
Blessings

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #8 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:11:18 AM »

I think that's what I am hearing also! Someone had a signature line that read something like "Character is how you behave when you know nobody is watching". The ends do not justify the means and it's important to remember that there is a slipery slope between what a government is well meaning to do to them that could also be applied to "us".

I have been there, handled many PW's during '67 and had a price on my head also being an MP there. We had some bad people back then on both sides. At that time the military police academy at Fort Gordon was considered a very good school and from what I am hearing it's even better now. I am wondering if those reservist were academy trained and maybe that's why the allowed those MI spooks to influence them?

Even without considering the morality of the issue, there is also the issue that torture is not an effective way of obtaining reliable intelligence. In the long run it just does more harm than good.

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:58:11 AM »

Quote from: Loader 3009

The thing is, they are making something out of it. This cannot be un-done. No amount of apologies will satisfy the Muslims and the Kerrys.

The fanatical Muslim leaders are calling for the capture of American and British troops. The males are to have their penises cut off and the women are to be given to the captors as their own personal slaves. This will surely increase dangers to our troops.

I am afraid this campaign is over. The world is against us. Any further involvement will push us even closer to WWIII. It may already be too late.

How can we fight the world when we cannot defeat a third world country?

i would submit that nothing would make them happy anyway. so why even try? the fantical leaders arent saying anything new; they are doing what they do=trying to scare people (reminds me of a school yard bully-punch them in hte mouth and you dont have anymore trouble).
i have news for you, the world was already against us; you are just seeing it now. and as far as defeating a third world country, let our military do its job with america's unwavering support and see how things change. vietnam would have been different if the soldiers would have been allowed to fight. it is the morons back here that screw things up. take the glove off. leave it off.

lee garton- i couldnt agree more.

i believe the ends do justify the means. these folks see kindness as weakness; and will exploit it all day long. wait until one of these crackpots manages to get a nuclear bomb in here and set it off. then where will you stand? get the guts to do what is needed BEFORE that happens. because if it keeps on like it is it WILL happen.
i dont think the election is anywhere as close as they are calling it. i believe bush will have a lopsided win.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2004, 02:15:16 AM »

Quote

i dont think the election is anywhere as close as they are calling it. i believe bush will have a lopsided win.

A lot of republicans here thought along those lines for our last governors race. It too bad, but we got a liberal democrat governer here because in the last election the republican machine insisted on running one of their political zombies. They got someone who would parrot all the special interest agendas, and it made a lot of folks in Arizona pretty unhappy with the two choices and could not justify one over the other.

Now I have problems with both Kerry and Bush, and would prefer to see the Republicians run someone with a little character like John McCain.

Loader 3009 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 09, 2004, 05:00:08 AM »

I don't think the treatment of the Iraqi criminal element constitutes torture unless you use the politically correct definition. What we were doing was working on their machismo. This is a very effective treatment for these men. Masculinity is a highly held attribute for these people. Americans have lost this with the feminization of our society. The pictures were most likely taken to coerce the criminals into giving information about pending attacks on our troops. "If you don't talk, Mohammed, we're gonna post your nekkid picture on every street corner."
"Hey, Ishmael, what's this American girl doing with you on a dog leash?"

As criminals, they do not fall under the rules of the Geneva Convention. I don't consider wounding some terrorist's ego a torture procedure. I underwent and admistered worse in high school and college hazing incidents.

I do not expect the weenies of the world to understand. Unfortunately, we are outnumbered by weenies.....at home and abroad.

War is he11, guys, but losing a war is worse.

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 09, 2004, 11:28:14 AM »

right on, loader! :agree:

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #13 on:** May 09, 2004, 11:45:02 AM »

FYI sodomy, rape, beating and murder, although not shown in the photo's you have seen so far but are refered to in the military reports, are criminal behavior.

It's sicking to hear those patriots with flags flying from their pickups talking up such behavior as it acceptable. It is not! Our military is respected because it is professional, deciplined, profiecient and effective, and not an armed mob intent upon punishing a population under their control. If you can't understand that, there is nothing I say any further to make it any simpler.

Loader 3009 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 09, 2004, 12:17:21 PM »

I have seen no evidence of "sodomy, rape, beatings, or murder".

I have seen evidence of Americans kidnapped, murdered, incinerated, dismembered and hanged, upside down from a bridge while the scum of the Earth point and laugh.

I have seen a nekkid criminal on a dog leash held by a smiling 90 pound wisp of a teenage girl.

How can you compare the two?

The American military is respected because it KICKS A$$, Tom, and for no other reason.

The "population" is not being punished, Tom. CRIMINALS are being arrested, held and interrogated. These are CRIMINALS, TOM. C-R-I-M-I-N-A-L-S. Committing CRIMES, Tom. Crimes against the country of Iraq. If YOU don't understand that, there is nothing I say any further to make it any plainer......Tom.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #15 on:** May 09, 2004, 12:45:10 PM »

Read the investigative reports, don't just look at the pictures. Listen to the hearings and do some research! As they said during the hearings with the Secretary of Defense, more damaging videos, photo's are to be published by the media shortly. Transcripts of the reports have been broadcast by the media.

Quote

I have seen evidence of Americans kidnapped, murdered, incinerated, dismembered and hanged, upside down from a bridge while the scum of the Earth point and laugh.

That is an undeciplined mob and not a professional military.

Quote

The American military is respected because it KICKS A$$, Tom, and for no other reason.

It does that because of the reason I mentioned previously! Combatants do not surrender to you if they feel they will worse off than dead.

We all have it in us to perform criminal and barbaric acts. It's self decipline and strength of character that keeps you from doing what you have the urge to do.

Loader 3009 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:17:56 PM »

Your "reports" and "hearings" are being written and conducted by anti-Bush liberals (DEMOCRATS). What would a thinking person expect? This is an election year, Tom.

If there was a criminal act committed, it was the making public of these photos. This act may cost millions of lives in the end.

In case you can't tell, I am a red-blooded. patriotic, God (the real One) fearing, hetrosexual, masculine, weenie despising, conservative American male with Republican leanings. I offer no apologies.

What are your political leanings, Tom?

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:44:29 PM »

You asked so I will tell you. My political leanings are that I am disgusted with both the Republicans (with the exception of John McCain) and the Democrats. I voted for Bush in the last election and registered as a Libertian just so they could have enough of a count to run a candidate on the ballot, as I felt sorry for them.

I am a former Army MP serving a full tour in Vietnam in most of '67 and part of '68. I was familiar with the UCMJ and had custody of quite a few prisoners at times. I have refused unlawful orders which is a soldiers duty and responsibility. I personally did not do anything that I am ashamed for and am proud of my service.

Unfortunately, I am shamed by the activities of some of my successors in the incidents that are being discussed. What I asked you to do is research the subject, look at the Army investigative report conducted by the Major General who was assigned to investigate some of the charges. You will see references to that criminal behavior I mentioned.

I am not sure where you are reporting that those abused were criminals, I though I heard during the hearings the Department of Defense representative report that they were detainees and not criminal subjects.

Now the last time I bled it was red and really could give a rat's ass less what your leanings are or your propensity for apology.

Loader 3009 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2004, 01:58:19 PM »

Spoken like a true liberal, Tom.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2004, 02:08:06 PM »

Quote from: Loader 3009

Spoken like a true liberal, Tom.

I think that's the difference, for you it seems like it's just another political story to wack away in the wind. For me it's personal.

azshooter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2004, 05:27:15 PM »

Totally wrong what we did. The guards hould have served them daily helpings of Pork Chops and Bacon

Read below for proper treatment

http://www.bushcountry.org/news/jun_news_pages/g_060803_morse_ending_islamic_terror.htm

Loader 3009 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2004, 11:07:04 PM »

I'm not so sure that actually happened, azshooter. It appeared in a movie about Pershing, starring Gregory Peck, I believe. It makes a good story, true or not.

If we must resort to extreme methods in the winning of a war, so be it, but I do not see any evidence of injury on the bodies of these barbarians. No scars. No welts. No bruises. No burns. No blood. No broken bones. Just a few hurt feelings and bruised egos.

If there are cases of rape, murder, sosomy, etc., they should be punished and severely so. IF these things actually happened, only an idiot or a Democrat could see it as "policy". LAPD has a far worse record.

williamlayton · « **Reply #22 on:** May 10, 2004, 12:14:43 AM »

Well now lets calm a little and think. There is obviously some reason for all of this. The president and Rumsfeld have apologised, admitted there are things being investigated which can't be revealed, promise of bringing to justice those responsible. This information and reports of the other sort are being broadcast on FOX which is a right wing news agency.
I think it would be wise to wait and see before rushing to judgement either way.
My original question was, IF they were true, if all the worst was true, what is the take.
Blessings
PS-- Both the prez and secretary have said they will not tolerate, zero toleration, any infractions of the Geneva convention. That is an order from the commanding officer.

MATLOCK12C · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2004, 09:11:49 AM »

We need to look past the pic's here and see the big picture. :shock:
We are at WAR with a country, And a religious faction here. The people fighting us are not afraid to die for there GOD. As a matter of fact it is an honor to do so while killing so called "unbelievers" :x
How do you fight a man with those convections? The awnser is simple, you put the fear of his own God into him! :shock: The strength and resolve of those we are fighting is based on there religion, Islam.
Where we generally belive salvation is based on our personal relationship with our God and being "saved" so to speak. :grin: To them, to be humiliated by an "infidel" is a fate worse than death. :evil: To die "unclean" is a ticket straight to there virson of hell. :twisted: To be seen naked by a woman who is an infidel is even worse.
This was little more than a simple "psych op" that got out into the public. :oops:
We as a people really do not want to know everything our Government does to protect us, and our way of life. I for one am sure that things much more horrible than some "dirty pictures" have happened in the past and will happen in the future. Understand, these ain't innocent people this happened to. They were at War with us. They are captured prisoners who were willing to kill us. Everyone of them knew he wasn't going to a damn prayer meeting with a AK-47.
No matter where you stand on this issue remember this.
We sleep in peace tonight because there are good men willing to fight in our place to protect this nation and it's constitution from evil.

myronman3 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2004, 03:34:15 PM »

well tom- i do have to say you sunk low first. essentially calling those who disagree with you dumb rednecks. now i will say, i think you a good man who just sticks with his beliefs. i can respect that and you; even if we disagree on this one.
loader has some very good points. would you care what was done to the september 11th hijjackers if we could have brought them back to life and kept them forever? these people are of the same ilk. they would if they could. they would butcher you and your children while dancing with your guts held in the air while singing! they would smash my baby's skull and feel great pleasure. for these people i have no sympathy. they can be thankful i am not running the show. sodomy, rape, and beatings would only be the beginning.
now hopefully no one here has ruined any friendships as i think all who have posted are good folk. i do realize this is serious stuff and we all have our opinions. let's not insult each other because they might be different.
right on, matlock. :agree:

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #25 on:** May 10, 2004, 04:14:24 PM »

Actually I do not believe I refered to those who disagree as dumb rednecks. The term I believe I used was "patriots with flags flying from their pickups". I have more respect for rednecks and I am probably considered one. I also have more respect for my flag than have it displayed in an irrevent manner.

My beliefs come from personal experiences with the subject being discussed, in another war and in another place. However they are not that dissimlar.

The fact that the other side hides within the population and commits brutality and barbarity as a tactical and stratgic tools, does not excuse our performance similar behavior. This has been seen before, it was wrong then and it's wrong now.

Now I am too old and worn out now to be of any value to our military again, probably just a hinderance and liability in the field. However I would like to offer a challange to those "patriots with flags flying from their pickups" which we also have an abundance here. It's one thing to spout calls for vengence and revenge and blow for blow. But instead of talking about it, I invite those red blooded American patriots to follow the example of a fellow who played collage and professional football here.

His name was Pat Tillman, and he gave up a lot to let his actions speak towards his beliefs. I think most folks have heard the story of his choosing an army enlistment forsaking a multimillion dollar professional sport contract.

So what I am suggesting is for those who are rightfully angered by the actions of our enemies, the recruiting offices for all the branches are open this week. Let your actions do your talking.

ironglow · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2004, 04:43:21 PM »

At first I was much appalled at the treatment...then I heard a few mitigating facts.
1. The prision had two sections, regular prisoners and the baddest of the bad( those who blew our troops up, ambushed non-combatant troops and did all kinds of fanatic, rotten things).
2. The part where the humiliations took place was in the "baddest" part of the prison.
The Bleeding Libs won't allow the slightest torture, and we are dealing with prisoners that mistreat the guards...because they worship death.
One thing those fanatical terrorists don't worship is humiliation.....so do what works.
Don't KNOW about sodomy and rape...if it occurred, punish it!
IF it REALLY happened, it was probably queers or other perverts taking advantage of a situation....so punish them..
I don't know to what extent the terrorists mistreated the guards, other than spitting upon them etc.; but I have not walked in those guard's shoes...have you?
I do know that recently some of these practitioners of the "religion of peace" stopped a station wagon in Israel that contained a pregnant mother and her four daughters. First they shot the mother in the stomach..then treated her to the sight of her four daughters (11 years and under) being shot point-blank in the head...then they head-shot the mother.
The funeral of these five victims was interrupted by the murder of another mother and child, by more of those that practice "the religion of peace".
These lowlifes have murdered children in busses and day-care centers.
They have murdered people in pizza parlors....
Where are the expressions of outrage from the "moderate" muslim community.....
Where are the calls from Germany and France for an international manhunt and trials?
When I see more outrage and public trials of such terrorists...when I see a few of the terrorists extradited to the US or Israel for trial; then perhaps I will START to believe there is a difference between "fanatic" and "moderate"....till then I see very little difference.

There were two major crimes here...photographing the thing, and worst of all; distributing the pictures to the world.
Whoever let those photos out KNEW that they would undermine the war on terror...so they themselves, are no better than a terrorist!
The story could have been told without pictures. We are dealing with emotional people that can be whipped into a frenzy by photos...don't cater to them!

Now, the DEMONcrats and the partisan press are playing " Al Jazeera west"...trying to undermine our war on terror...and ultimately, the nation itself...

azshooter · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2004, 04:20:52 AM »

The fact is that any abuse is being taken care of and not by the "International Community" it is being done by Americans who care more about these SOB Islamic wackjobs then their own people do. My questions is where is the outrage over Americans being dragged from cars killed, burnt and hung from bridges? The same people (mainly media) who are crying about these guys being roughed up seem to have no voice when it comes to the abuse that is much more severe of their own countrymen. I have yet to hear a single Muslim stand up to protest the abuse of Americans.

Antlurz · « **Reply #28 on:** May 11, 2004, 06:36:38 AM »

People have bought into the kissyface kinder gentler crapola and until they understand winning wars is not about seeing who can hold a higher moral ground when the enemy has no "morals" to begin with they will loose.

But, but, but, why are they still trying to kill us? We are treating them as nice as we can as fast as we can....

See ya! :roll:

Somewhere, within all this "evidence" may be things that actually can be termed "torture" and maybe even unacceptable.

Unacceptable is relative.

So far, what has been shown is nothing more than an embarassment of people who would, given another chance, KILL US. (DEAD)

So far, none of it has been seen and even this garbage about broomsticks and light wands is....at this juncture.... ONLY the quoted ramblings of one of the baddest of the bad.

"Nice guys finish last" is an axiom that holds true in war as well as elsewhere.

Ron

myronman3 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 11, 2004, 12:47:53 PM »

hey tom- with all due respect- you think you are the only one who has served? there are a BUNCH of us here that are vets. and though most of my heros were vietnam vets; a whole bunch of your generation act like they are the only ones to endure hardship. fact is that isnt the case. the stories my dad tells pale next to the ones my grandpops told me. not to place the sacrafice of one over another; but the point is nam vets arent as unique as many profess to be. so dont try to hold that over anyones head. i appreciate your service as i am sure you appreciate mine.
and although you didnt outright state "dumb rednecks" you certainly implied it (re-read your post if in doubt). and anyone that loves and appreciates our flag is welcome to wave it boldly any way they choose- it beats burning them like some do.
my granddad, my dad, and i have all served our country in very elite units. and i am sure my sons will also. the reason i see things the way i do is through my personal experience in dealing with threats to our country. funny how gramps and dad and i pretty much agree on the right way to end it. if we dont we will just push this onto our children and grandchildren to deal with. i aint for that. if it takes a world war to clean it up then so be it. better than pushing these horrors off on our kids to deal with. face it now with unshakable resolve.