The stories of abuse and torture

[Thomas Krupinski]

Myroman3,

I don't claim to be a hero, as I don't feel I did anything heroic.  What I am trying to say comes from personal experience in dealing with situations involving PW's in the military and prisoners in civillian employment.  There is a moral difference between excesses in the field while in combat and after someone is confined and under your control.  It is also an issue of dicipline.  

Some months after I left country there was an incident in my division  involving a small infantry unit murdering civillians.  From what I read a helicoptor crew witnessed the incident and rescued a few and reported it.  

Those guys were taking fire and casualties, and couldn't find the enemy, so they took it out on those in the first village to come along.  They turned from diciplined soldiers to a mob taking vengence.   I can not condemm them, but empathise with their situation.  I can not say what I would have done if I had been them.  Some did not participate, others joined in the frenzy.  Their leadership gave in and did not take action to stop it..  Well it made it the news big time.  The Lt. was later courts martialed.

I have also heard from my father about civillians they killed during their first few days in France.  There are accidents that happen in combat like friendly fire and sometimes emotions get going.

But that situation is substantially different from one in a prison situation where the detainees are completly under your control and you have a moral obligation as to their care.  Yes, I have been in cell block riots and other bad situations.  The army selects military police for personality types and trains for abilities to be able maintain dicipline where emotions are likely to be stressed.  If those MP's charged were not selected or trained properly, then some other heads within the chain of command need to roll.

The bottom line is that the behavior in those allegations of the offenses in the prisons in Iraq were still wrong!   I can understand with the brutality being reported in the media against Americans that emotions are hightened and calls for similar treatment seem justifiable and popular.  But there is a responsibility that the individuals up the chain of command have to insure that does not happen.  Criminal behavior under the color of law is still criminal behavior and should not be excused as being perfromed in our name.

I honestly do appreciate your service.  But please try and understand the frame of reference that I am speaking from.  I don't think you or any of us other rednecks are any less intelligent than I.  It's just that I have walked those shoes in that type of situation we are talking about and there is a know line that should not be crossed.

Now I am afraid that I can't agree with you on the manner in which I have seen quite a few display our flag around here.  I was taught to respect it as a symbol of something to be honored.  What I often see is it displayed as an neglected vehicle ornament or clothing decoration that the wearer shows no respect to.

When I see the reports on the war I also get angry and frustrated, and my regret is that I am no longer physically able to be involved.  But I encourage anyone else who feels that way to let your actions do your talking.

[williamlayton]

Morality is morality and anything less is immoral, it is black or white, no gray. If, and it appears so as criminal charges have been filed, the worse comes to pass then those responsible will have to face the responsibility of their acts.
We as a nation which claims to be Christian cannot lower our standards to those of a people who have no pity or morality. You can cry out as loud as you want and try and justify those deeds but there is no justification for them in the eyes of a living God.
Blessings

[Loader 3009]

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38449

[williamlayton]

I am a little lost on your response loader. Not an argument or a flame. Please explain your meaning.
BVlessings

[myronman3]

i see they murdered this guy.  this is why i dont give a rip about their 'rights'.  it is bad enough that we care more about criminals rights here in our country but to do the same while at war is unbelivable.   a fight is a fight and anyone who is afraid they arent being "fair" is doomed.  no such thing.  there is alive and there is dead.  no in between.  
   trying to worry about morality will get you killed in war.  if our country keeps this insanity up we will perish for sure.   SURVIVAL.   that is what we are talking with the war on terror.   if you are worried about morals then you aint up for the job.  dirty for dirty.  hit them harder and dirtier.   a viciousness that would shake the world.   make them tremble at the thought of american power.    
    as for God, i would have no problem answering for this.   God doesnt like cowards.  
   as for me; as a kid my heros were vietnam vets.  as i have grown, i know that there were many more before them.  now my heros are ALL veterans who stood their turn at the watch faithfully.  all vets are heros.

[Loader 3009]

I am a little lost on your response loader. Not an argument or a flame. Please explain your meaning.
BVlessings

You appear to be a nice guy, William.  Jimmy Carter is a nice guy.  I would not want either of you on my team in a tough situation.  It does not suprise me that you do not see the weakness of your argument.  I posted the link in order to let the cold hard facts of life support my position.  Not an argument or a flame.

[williamlayton]

Myronman--
Just opinion and advice. I think you really need to reread your post, read some scripture and pray about your thinking process . It is flawed in my opinion. I say this with compassion not with hate or abuse.
This world is doomed. We have been given a lifeline to salvation from this world. The lord does hate cowards, but not as you would describe cowards. Cowards resort to the kind of actions talked about here. Heroes, as described in Hebrews are not the kind of heroes you describe.
Blessings

[myronman3]

while i appreciate your concern; i know my God.  and he dont like folks that give up one of the most precious gifts he has ever given-life.  life is sacred.  and i hold my own, my familys, and those of my countrymen in very high regard.   God have mercy on anyone who trys to take them; for he will be meeting them soon- do what ever he wants with them.  
    as for turning the other cheek;   i will leave that to those that would; not this cat.   heros step up when others fail to.   they do not lie down and die.   and if God disagrees with me; he can tell me and only he may judge me.   blessings.

[ironglow]

William;
    When the murders hacked at Mr. Berg, they shouted "God is great":
a short time ago, when Muslim killers beheaded some missionaries in the Philipines, the said, "That's what you get for not believing in Allah!".

  "God is great!" they said:I say,who's God...what God?
 
  Perhaps time is shorter than we realize!
 The wholesale beheadings will come after the rapture...but what is to say they don't start before then?
   
  In Rev 20:1-4, John sees prophetically, the saints that were beheaded for refusing to worship the Anti-Christ.

   We who believe the Bible, fully understand that there are only two spiritual forces in all creation...God and anti-Christ or Satan....

    Is the truth being revealed?

[myronman3]

now i think THAT  is an interesting take on it all.  maybe not all that far off either...
   what really is the main sticking point with this "religon of peace" is that the islamic world never denounces acts like this.  none of the major clerics ever say it is wrong.   if this isnt the face of evil then i am at a loss.

[Thomas Krupinski]

now i think THAT  is an interesting take on it all.  maybe not all that far off either...
   what really is the main sticking point with this "religon of peace" is that the islamic world never denounces acts like this.  none of the major clerics ever say it is wrong.   if this isnt the face of evil then i am at a loss.

Now there I have to agree with you about the face of evil.  Unfortunatly I think they have painted themselves into a corner using their fundamentalist theology to further a political agenda.  For years they have educated their followers into a doctrine that does not allow for any independent thought and has deamonized those who disagree.  To show a change of face now could result in thier loss of power or maybe even their heads.

Unfortunatly Ironglow may be correct in that this will end up as a major global contest between eastern and western belief systems.  Oh well, the planet is overpopulated anyway.

[myronman3]

it is sad.  i am a peace loving guy who just wants to live and raise my children.  i aint out ot impose nothing on no-one.   but these folks wont leave us alone.  it is foolish to think otherwise.  and  i dont want my children to have to deal with this, either.   i want them to be able to live and raise their family in peace.  that is really all i want.   and when anyone threatens their future, my fangs come out.   and i guess that is all that this whole mess boils down to.   i want to live in peace; but if we have to kill 3/4 of the planet to do it then so be it.  i dont like it anymore than anyone else.

[Loader 3009]

Here is the video and translation.  Disturbing.


http://users.pandora.be/shine/iraq2vediom.wmv



Quote:
"Nation of Islam. Tidings of dawn and winds of victory have begun for God has honored us with roaring victory in Falluja.

"Nation of Islam. Is there any excuse left to sit idly by? And how can free Muslims sleep soundly as they see Islam being slaughtered, honor bleeding, photographs of shame and reports of Satanic degradation of the people of Islam, men and women, in Abu Ghraib prison?

"Where is the care, fervor and rage for the faith of God, where is the concern for the sanctities of Muslims and where is the revenge for the honor of Muslims in the crusader prisons?

"As for you Islamic scholars, you will answer to God. Do you not see ... the Muslim youth who humiliated the greatest power in history, cut off its nose and shattered its arrogance.

"Do you not see that it is time for you to learn from them the meanings of responsibility and sacrifice. Until when shall you remain like women, excelling only in ... wailing and crying?

"One person pleads with the free of the world, another with (U.N. Secretary-General) Kofi Annan, a third asks for help from (Arab League Secretary-General) Amr Moussa and a fourth calls for peaceful demonstrations as if they never heard God's order for the Prophet (Mohammad) to rally the faithful to fight.

"Have you not had your fill of the war of conferences and battle of words? Is it not time for you to take the path of jihad and carry the sword of the Prophet of prophets? We ask you not to condemn what we will do just to please the Americans.

"The Prophet, the most merciful, ordered (his army) to strike the necks of some prisoners in Badr (battle) and to kill them ... And he set a good example for us.

"As for you Bush, dog of the Christians, anticipate what will harm you and difficult days. You and your soldiers will regret the day you stepped foot in Iraq and dared to violate Muslims.

"A message to the traitorous agent (Pakistani President) Pervez Musharraf: We tell him that we wait eagerly to receive your soldiers and, by God, we will demand them before the Americans and avenge the blood of our brothers in (Afghanistan).

"As for you, mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the American administration to exchange this prisoner for some prisoners in Abu Ghraib, but they refused.

"We tell you that the honor of Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and other (prisons) are more noble than blood and lives.

"And you will only get shroud after shroud and coffin after coffin slaughtered in this manner."

[williamlayton]

Those were some good thoughts. I think, just me think, this world is flawed and I put no confidence in it or in any government. We have it our own way, we have gone our own way.
I'm pretty tired of this world, I wish the Lord would come quickly.
Back to the subject
This part of the world has been at this business since Abraham and will, according to scripture, till Christ Jesus comes again. I am not in the position to judge anyone but myownself, with insight form the Lord. I just have felt a sense of dispair with us ever believing we are or they are going to change their  stance or way of doing business.
I pray for those who are over there and hope, with not much peace of mind, that we conduct business in a way that will bring honor to the Lord. That is a tough thought as I, in my own spirit, have a tough time with us being there and can't see the Lord gaining glory for this process. Having said that, The Lord is in control and his voice will not return void.
Blessings to all

[ironglow]

Further thoughts....
   This whole conflict started, not with the crusades but in Jerusalem and environs , roughly 5000  years ago.
    Remember; Abraham had two sons ...one legitimate, one illegitimate.
their names....Issac and Ishmael.
  Then, when they came of age and were to recieve their inheritance, God showered it all upon Isaac, including his being the founder of the nation of God's people (Gen17:19-21, 21:12)...the Jews.
  Isaac was not entirely left out, he was promised that he would make a great nation of Ishmael (Gen 21:18), thus Ishmael became the progenitor of the Arabs.
   Curiously; The angel of the Lord did appear to Hagar, Ishmael's mother; before Ishmael was born and promised her that her son would be the founder of a great nation but he also warned her about his nature:

   "He shall be a wild man:
    His hand shall be against every man,
    And every man's hand against him.
    And he shall dwell in the presence of  all his brethren."
                                                        (Gen 16:12 ,NKJV)

    Since it says "against EVERY man", I take it to mean that when a stranger is not handy to attack...he may well attack his own kin.

         In any case, this anger and hate has been going on since then..
 When the Jews returned from Egypt to their Inheritance, the promised land...the Arab nations fought with them and tried to keep the Jew's inheritance. Names like Hittites, Perizzites , Jebusites, Moabites, Edomites etc.
   Some scholars claim that the term Palestinian is derived fron Philistine,  via Roman rule etc.

    Christianity is of course, based on a faith founded by Jews, our Lord was born a Jew.
   Thus, much of the hatred reserved for Jews is cast upon Christians.
You can read the hate for Christians in their own words as the murderers of M. Berg spoke to the world.

    Today the anger of the "loss of inheritance"is still raging...we Christians are heirs of promise (Gala 4:5-7)...

    Frankly; I am so pleased to be an heir to salvation........
  The evil ones have the opportunity (as does everyone) to partake of his salvation; but they would rather, in their rage, spread hate and mayhem.
    (just as the Angel of the Lord said they would)

   A short study of Bible prophecy will show the tie-ins that are right now developing...

[MATLOCK12C]

Now I am not the smartest ole boy in town, but I have been to a county fair and a rat stompin .
History is a good teacher if ya pay attention to it that is. This is the Crusades all over again.
The muslim faith hates Christians and Jew's it always has always will. Thats just a fact.
Europe beat back the Moors before, now its our turn. Islam is an intolerant religion. You tow the line or you are an "infidel" A nonbeliever is lower than a dog and killing one is a service to Islam. Chopping that boy's head off was nothing more than killing an animal to them.
The Liberals and moderates think you can negotiate with them, you cant.
Some think we can just pull out and they will stop, they wont. Ask Spain.
Containment will not work, the terrorist will still come. Ask the Jew's
The only sure thing you can count on is this. THEY HATE US, AND WILL NOT STOP until WE AND ALL JEWS ARE DEAD!
You will never have peace until one of us are gone from this earth. Thats a fact, like it or not. The time for sugarcoating this is over, we are at war like it or not.
If you trust even one of these people you are putting your life into there hands. Ask Mr Berg and Mr Pearl or the folks on the planes and twin towers how that turns out!
As for those dirty pictures from the prison, so what! We have worse things happen in our own prisons here in America! Where are the congressional hearings on that?
The people in that Iraqi prison are mad dog killers not choir boys. I have no sympathy for them at all.

[Thomas Krupinski]

I am afraid I have to differ with Matlock on this.  I think he is wrong about the historical references to hatred to Christanity and Judism by Muslims.  From what I have read and heard there was a time when during the Middle Ages that Islam was the center of science, learning and enlightenment.  That empire practiced and encouraged tollerance towards small populations of other beliefs and were somewhat protected.  Perhaps it is because they did not feel threatened by those at that time.  

But things have changed and what is now being practiced there is nowhere close to what it was.  He is correct that negoation and appeasment will get you nothing but more trouble.  Force and strength is what is understood

However after you have achieved control over your enemy your morality is what you will eventually be judged upon.  My take is that the hatred that is taught there is the result of envy of our civilization, and their difficulties to acknowledge their own failures and mistakes.

However the

The people in that Iraqi prison are mad dog killers not choir boys.

is really not true.  But from what the reports have been indicating is that there were a fair percentage were just caught up in the sweep.  But even if they were, that is still no excuse for such behavior.  I am still convienced that it was stupid, wrong and criminal.  Our civilization is different and if we let our standards lower to meet theirs, we may at some later point in history find our ours to be in envy of another.

[williamlayton]

It is evident that the Republican party does not agree with mr Matlock.
Personally I think there is a far way to go before it comes to that.
We can still accomplish our goal without resorting to lowering ourownselves.
Doesn't matter, when we leave all things will resort to status quo. That is the saddest part.
Blessings

[MATLOCK12C]

I do concur with Mr, Krupinski on some points. I was refering to the time at and directly after the Crusades. Islam nowdays has been hijacked by these zelots it seem's.
As for the prison, we were told it was devided into two sections, with the real bad guys segregated from the others. It was these men that were in the pic's etc,
I have full faith in our military not to just round up the usual suspects and interigate them all the same willy nilly.
Thomas is right on the point that Force and Strength are what is respected in that regon. Kindness and humanity is taken as weekness and distain.
As to how history will judge us, remember it is the winner who writes the history book!
I can tell you this much, when you are standing in front of a flag draped coffen burying your little nepfew it puts things into perspective.
He served proudly and died like a man. For my little sister, and myself I take consulation that he took three of those b#$%^&d's with him.  
His buddys wrote and told us what happend. He did not die in vain, he died like a soldier.
We all need to remember as we sit in safety here. That it is because of good men and women who stand on that wall in our stead willing to put there lives on the line for all of us that we can sleep in peace at night.

Let's be honest here, we as Americans really dont want to know the things our Government does to keep us safe.
As jack Nicolson said "In a few good men"
"You want the truth? You cant handel the truth!"
Those words are more true than you, or I want to know.
There is a fine line here, and yes even we cross it sometimes. It IS the fact that we DO NOT stay across that line that makes us better as a country, and a people.

[Thomas Krupinski]

Well said Matlock!

The more that I am hearing from the media as it comes into the light, the more I feel that the military will properly investigate and take appropriate action, throughout the chain of command.  The truth, although painful and distatefull at times, is necessary to make honest decissions on important issues.

[Loader 3009]

Matlock, I want you on my team.

These prisoners are Al Queda.  They are part of the same gang that pulled off 9-11.  I am getting tired of this whining.  The sob's use it to further their cause and "some" Americans are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.  This is a traitorous act, IMHO.

Those that murdered Mr. Berg are of the same feather as they.  I hope all of you watched the video.  This fellow (American) didn;t have a chance.  Not only was he an American, but a Jew.  I now look for the state/nation of Israel to become involved.

Gentlemen, this is not just another crusade, it is the beginning of WWIII.  Soon, if we are not victorious, the EU will enter the fray.  The EU now has 25 member nations.  This translates to 25 armies....all under ONE command.  This army is roughly twice the size of our armed forces and has a larger economy driving it.  The Catholic EU wants Jerusalem so bad it can taste it.  Not only will the Islamic countries fall to the EU, but Jerusalem along with it.  This is what Bible prophecy states.

Yes, WilliamLayton, Christ is coming soon, but you ain't going to like what happens before He gets here.

[williamlayton]

Loader-
I gotta tell you that you would want to have me around but you would have to shape up.
Blessings

[myronman3]

e.u. (european union?)  i guess  if this is what the e.u. is then i dont see much sense in worrying about them.  right now they are in worse shape than we are when it comes to the country being overrun with mouthy-do-nothings.   if they cant stand up to each other they sure as hell dont stand a chance standing against us.   no way.  the real threat now is these fundamentalist morons who want to kill, kill, kill.    and will stop at nothing to do so.   dont get suckered into taking your eyes off the real menace.

[Loader 3009]

The eleventh chapter of the book of Daniel reveals the coming invasion of the Middle East by the German dominated European Union.  

I grant you that they are in bad shape, right now.  Similar to their condition right before the rise of Hitler.  Ever heard the saying, "History repeats itself"?  The only thing these people lack is a strong leader.

The book of Revelation is a companion book to Daniel.  Revelation puts prophecy in chronological order, whereas the other books of the Bible do not.

[williamlayton]

whether or not this will be European is irrelevant, it will come to pass. Yes, those of us left to endure the Tribulation, or at least a portion of it, will suffer greatly. I pray, but do not understand it to be, the rapture of believers is prior to the tribulation.
We must be very strong during these days coming. I would feel a lot more secure if I thought we  were being lead by the Lord, but, alas, I do not see it that way. I think we have chosen our own path, gone our own way and have left the Lord out.  
I pray for those who do not know the Lord as well as for those who do know him. I pray for a great awakening, a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit. I pray for strength, courage and the leadership of the Lord for believers during this time, both present and during the tribulation.
Lord come quickly!
Blessings

[ironglow]

William;
   The situation with the EU can change rapidly. If the Libs get their way and we don't keep hunting down the terrorists and  destroying regimes that harbor/support them....then they may pull a fresh 9/11  ...or two, or three. With the proper hits , our market could crash  and along with many other domino effects, we could become a second rate power over night.
  I am one who holds to the pre-trib rapture but won't be dogmatically opposed to your midst-trib views. Our view of prophesy is simply what we have been able to ascertain through the Scriptures. The really great scholars on prophesy do differ, but not by much. I take the general view of Evangelical scholar's studies as very valid.
    Such scholars as Tim LaHaye, Fallwell , Ed Hindson, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Chuck Missler and many more I truly believe , have the true general picture. I don't like to get to "splitting hairs", because although the Scriptures are ENTIRELY true; the commentary made upon them (esp. Revelations) is basically "educated guesswork" by well qualified scholars.
    We can rest assured that the " five fundamentals" are all "settled law" and His salvation is assured to all who seek him!


   I keep thinking: those Islamic terrorists commit a suicide bombing and plan on "waking up in Paradise"....can you imagine their surprise when they awaken!!!?

[myronman3]

what i find amazing about what they believe their reward will be: a bunch of virgins and a permant erection.    
   now i like women as much as anyone; but i have to say that if this is their promised heaven, they arent built of much.  
  my idea of heaven is being able to live in peace; able to be with your ancestors and your decendents,   and all your friends.  to be together in total safty with no concerns.   no pain and no illness; only good times and ice cream.  
   to me it sounds as though they have been tempted by the dark side and sold their souls; for not much at all.

[MATLOCK12C]

THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO GET 72 VIRGINS.  Now I ask you how could it be heaven if you had 72 ladies there with ya 24/7 for eternity? Hell it's all I can do to tolerate 1 woman 24/7 and I LOVE her!    
On the same note she loves me in spite of my many flaws! :shock:  :-D

[myronman3]

amen!

[Loader 3009]

e.u. (european union?)  i guess  if this is what the e.u. is then i dont see much sense in worrying about them.  right now they are in worse shape than we are when it comes to the country being overrun with mouthy-do-nothings.   if they cant stand up to each other they sure as hell dont stand a chance standing against us.   no way.  the real threat now is these fundamentalist morons who want to kill, kill, kill.    and will stop at nothing to do so.   dont get suckered into taking your eyes off the real menace.

Gentlemen, check out my post in the "END OF EUROPE" thread.