38-55 Target or 45-70 Buffalo?

[ratherbefishin]

I'm trying to decide which one to buy.I don't shoot that much[ 1 shot, 1 deer] for the last 20 years.I have a .50 black powder TC that I like[Hawkin] annd cast my own bullets for that.If I bought either the 38-55 or 45-70, I think I would try casting my own bullets and loading them myself.[ I have never reloaded before] Anyway, which rifle should I buy?I will probably use it for target shooting, and  hunting black bear, maybe moose.

[Haywire Haywood]

IMO, if there's even the slightest chance that you are going to draw a bead on a moose, then the obvious, hands-down choice would be the Buff Classic.  It's not going to be as nice to you at the bench but I would want the extra energy for sure if I were hunting moose.  Now along with that I will say that I have never nor do I expect to ever hunt moose.

Ian

[ratherbefishin]

how would the 38-55 compare to a .35 whelen, assuming bullets of similar weight?

[handirifle]

No comparrison of the two.
First, I agree with Haywire, if there is a slim chance you'll go after moose, get the Buff.  I loaded mine with lead in the stock and that really helped eat up the recoil.

You can load the 45-70, as they say, from mild to wild.  Not so with the 38-55.  It can be loaded to 375 Win levels but they cannot come up to 35 Whelen levels of a 250gr bullet at 2400fps muzzle.  This is factory levels and since you'll be handloading you can push that even farther.  You won't need to but you can if you want.  There is a much larger bullet selection for both the 45-70 and the 35 whelen, in both cast and jacketed.

If paper, deer and black bear were your targets, the 38-55 would be plenty.

[Deadeye47]

45-70! Larger selection of loading components to choose from....besides it a much bigger shell than the lil ole 38-55...mucho more macho machacho

[Ganjiro]

AMEN to the 45/70, the 38-55 would be a great second rifle later though, both are classics.

[Haywire Haywood]

Mucho more macho machacho???  ROFL!   :-D

Here's a direct comparison.  38-55 unknown boolit, 45-70 325gr boolit, 30-06 150gr gameking

Ian

[ratherbefishin]

most of my shots are under 100 yards[all the deer were taken under 40 yards]and I'm more a believer in taking one careful shot than relying on big calibres- besides I tend to flinch, which is why I was asking about the 38-55 vs the 45-70.Is a viable option to load with pyrodex just as I do with my .50 Hawkin[ 100 grains behind a cast bullet]?

[Haywire Haywood]

Yep, you can't argue with shot placement.  A big caliber in a bad place is not the answer.  However, a sufficient caliber in the right place, especially on an animal as large as a moose I think is a must.  If you were 5yds away and you shot him in the eye with a 22 mag, it might do the job but that doesn't make it ideal.  In Texas I hear there is a big following in using 223 Rem on deer.  Personally, and this is just my opinion, I wouldn't shoot a deer with anything less than a 243/6mm class.  
In the end it's up to you but I think if that prize moose with a rack the size of Oregon just wouldn't give you that perfect broadside shot and you knew you didn't have enough gun for a quartering shot you'd regret it.

good luck,
Ian

[ratherbefishin]

so... would the 38-55 be sufficient for an annimal the size of a  moose, assuming you could put one shot right behind the shoulder, or would you be better off with the 45-70?
 and, any thoughts on shooting cast bullets with pyrodex?For my .50 hawkins I just use regular soft  plumbing flashing lead with some wheel weights added.They seem to work OK

[MSP Ret]

Think about the 45-70. The recoil is less than a 12 gauge and it has a large selection of possible combinations available to the reloader. It is easy to reload and even with a mild load with no recoil to speak of it is a fine load for deer within the 100 yard maximum range you have referred to, although it is capable of more if needed. I like you have not shot a deer in the last many years over 40 yards and have a Handi in 45-70 which is a favorite of mine. It has replaced my old standby Marlin 336 in .35 Remington as my go to gun....<><.... :grin:

[Deadeye47]

Amen to the comment on not having enough gun for the job...but....where I used to hunt near Halletsville Texas you were lucky to have a deer dress out 65 to 70 pounds! The 22 cal's are more than adequate for THAT size deer. I hunted with Mod.70 .225 Winchester for years and never lost a deer. Course that rifle would shoot into 1 hole at 100yards all day long and I could always put the shot where I wanted it. There were several guys and GALS on my lease that lost their deer using larger calibers.... but they couldn't shoot! It was kinda pitiful sometimes. I remember one time a young guy was bragging about how well his 30-06 shot....I heard him shoot (several times!)close to where I was hunting! :shock:  I already had a deer on the ground and was waiting to go check him. I heard some brush and a buck came limping out...he was bleeding from his backside and his right front leg was hanging on and spinning on a piece of hide!! I popped him up beside the head and he went down and stayed down... 30-06 is more than adaquate round but ya also gotta be able to use it.......ole lyle said later that that deer was so tough he could hardly eat it... :roll:

[marv]

Deadeye I live in Austin Tx. at one time knew Sereral Guys That
that hunted out around Dripping Springs, they all used 222 rem.
they didn't lose deer. one shot one deer. Marv

[Ed Hill]

Catridges of The World rates the 38-55 as having good stopping power on deer sized animals. If you're looking for moose, get the 45-70.
E.D.

[ratherbefishin]

Actually, a .22 long rifle will drop a deer dead in his tracks if you take a rest, standing shots only and put it right behind the eye.That's why I was asking about whether or not the 38-55 would be adequite for moose or black bear under 100 yards on a back of the shoulder shot.I well remember the old adage-1 shot- one deer, 2 shots, maybe one deer, 3 shots- no deer.I have  a Ruger single shot, and also a 6.5x55 swede and have dropped black bear with one solid broadside shoulder shot.
  And- has anybody used black powder/pyrodex behind cast bullets for either cartridge?And, if so, what sort of bullets, and charge is used?Would there be much diference between the recoil of a 45-70 and a .50 calibre muzle loader with 100 grains of Pyrodex, assuming the same weight of bullet[ my cast .50 calibre bullets are about 350 grains I believe]

[handirifle]

I haven't hunted with BP but I did shoot my BC with it.  Pyrodex, and other brands, as much as I could cram into the case.  Recoil is about like a 12ga with field loads.  I'd venture to say if you use a 38-55 for moose it will have to be loaded to 375 Win levels at least and at that point the recoil will be equal to or more than the 45-70 with BP loads.

There is a guy on here "Junior" that does hunt with BP in the 45-70 and maybe he can give you more feedback on this.

I say get the 45-70 and learn to shoot it or leave moose out of the picture.

[Cottonwood]

any thoughts on shooting cast bullets with pyrodex?For my .50 hawkins I just use regular soft  plumbing flashing lead with some wheel weights added.They seem to work OK

Your right about the mix for soft cast bullets.... personally I prefer a true soft cast of pure lead for my bullets that are shot using black powder loads, lubed of course with my own Buffalo Gold mix.

I have a 500-gr bullet that is called a "Elk Butster" these were extremely super-HARD cast, you can not scratch the bullet with your finger nail.  These got they're name for busting through both shoulders of an Elk, some other companies that put out a like bullet called them Thor's Hammer.  

Anyway I sent several of these super hard cast bullets to another friend who got Steve Brooks to create another mold for it.  Now I have about 40 left of the 50 that he sent me, that are 30:1 mix.  I can use either smokeless or BP for these and intend on hunting this year exclusively with the 500-gr soft cast Elk Buster.  I can use these in either my 45-70 or my 45-90  

[ratherbefishin]

I make my own lube for cast bullets by melting down bees wax and bearfat, works just fine. I warm it up and rub it into the grooves.Makes  a fine boot waterproofing too, just set the boots nearthe fire  to warm[ not gethot] and work the mixture into the leather,paying particular attention to get it into the welt- that's the most critical part, both where boots leak and where they break down.

[ratherbefishin]

another question-will the 32 '' barrel of the Buffalo allow slower burning powders or even Pyrodex more efficiently than the shorter barelled rifles?I'm assuming the long barrels were originally designed for black powder in any event.

[Ganjiro]

Here's interesting article by Junior http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/1871.htm
I'd stick with the 45/70 but give the new Hodgdon 777 powder a try, I hear great things about this new BP subtitute, very clean burning.  Remeber the 45/70 will hold 70 grains of BP max, maybe even less with heavy bullets, and the newer thick wall brass.  The recoil is a firm push, not a sharp jab, very enjoyable to shoot.  I'd keep away from Moose with the 38/55 but many a buffalo has been dropped with the good old 45/70 in 500 grain BP loads.

[ratherbefishin]

I know my .50 TC Hawkin's recoil is more of a ''push'' than my regular rifle- and I assume this is due to the slower burning rate.I admit I do like the black powder guns, fun to shoot- and cheap shooting  by casting your own bullets.I think many people put a lot of confidence in super magnums and take marginal shots rather than sitting tight and waiting for a good shot.Also, with animals the size of moose, they rarely go down right away witha lung shot, better to adopt the archery hunting technique of waiting 30 minutes before following up a shot.My neighbour went to Pink Mountain[ Northern BC] and shot a bison with his 338 at 50 yards- it gave no sign of being hit, just kept on grazing,so he shot again- same place, right behind the foreleg, and the only reaction was a flinch.After a couple of minutes the bull took a few steps and lay down and died.He had hit it right in the heart both times.So- I suspect a well placed bullet placed right back of the shoulders would do the trick on either a moose, or bison- because that was the reason for developing the .50 calibre Hawkin.They certainly didn't have 3000 fps velocities, but threw a big chunk of lead about 1/3 that speed

[ratherbefishin]

I note the HandiRifle 45-70 has a 22'' barrel, vs the Buffalo 45-70's 32 ''barrel.What implications are there in the longer barrel, in terms of faster vs slower powders.I would probably like to shootblack powder or a modern equivilent behind cast bullets.Who has tried both rifles?

[Ganjiro]

Black powder is actually a very fast burning powder so you would not gain much from a 32 inch barrel over the 22 inch in velocity.  What you do gain is sight radius which equals better potential accuracy.  To get the most from the 32 inch barrel performance wise you either go with smokeless slower burning powders, or ream our the chamber to shoot the longer 45/90, 45/100, 45/110, or 45/120 black powder reloads.   I love these classic old buffalo cartridges.

[handirifle]

The longer barrel also absorbs some of the recoil and helps keep down on muzzle flip too.

[Thunder38849]

One thing to remember also when thinking of the caliber for moose, a moose can be a very ill camper at times.   Been known to charge people.   I think I would choose the 45/70 with hopes it would stop a charging moose.

[Big Blue]

Amen to the comment on not having enough gun for the job...but....where I used to hunt near Halletsville Texas you were lucky to have a deer dress out 65 to 70 pounds!

A 65 pound deer? I thought everything was bigger in Texas? Here in PA. 65 pounds is just about the size of our groundhogs! :-D  :-D
Don

[Big Blue]

The longer barrel also absorbs some of the recoil and helps keep down on muzzle flip too.

I used to believe that, but with the barrel cut down, it actually has less recoil. It surprised me.
Don

[ogo]

45/70****************ogo

[handirifle]

I used to believe that, but with the barrel cut down, it actually has less recoil. It surprised me.
Don

Big Blue
Very interesting on the recoil, what about muzzle flip?

[Big Blue]

I used to believe that, but with the barrel cut down, it actually has less recoil. It surprised me.
Don

Big Blue
Very interesting on the recoil, what about muzzle flip?

To be honest, I'm not really sure. I'll have to check, and see if I can tell a difference. I picked up some new bullets today. Barnes 400gr. X bullets. They're a lot more pointed than the usual, and boy do they look mean! :evil:
Don