Author Topic: Most accurate lever-action rimfire for cowboy silhouette? (Read 7991 times)

Jason · « **on:** May 11, 2004, 10:35:04 AM »

I'm planning to shoot my first-ever cowboy lever action silhouette match on Saturday, and if it's half as much fun as the standard smallbore silhouette match (using scoped rimfires) was last month, I'm sure I'll be hooked on it, too. That means that I'll be needing a lever action tube-fed rimfire gun. I'll be shooting at little silhouette targets as far away as 100m (right at 110yds), so I'll want the most accurate gun that I can get my hands on. Which lever gun, in your experience, would that be? I've heard a lot of good things about the Marlin 39a's with the micro-groove barrels. My dad has a Marlin 336 in 30-30 that will be mine soon, too. (I will talk him out of that gun somehow, as it shoots 1" groups at 100yds and is what I got a deer this past year with! :-) ) I like the looks of the Winchester 9422s, too, though. Hmmm......

Also, which has the best sights for shooting silhouettes? Just thought of that question...

Jason · « **Reply #1 on:** May 11, 2004, 11:13:03 AM »

Quick update to this question...

The two rifles that I am considering are the Marlin 39A and the Winchester 9422 Legacy (instead of hte Traditional, as the semi-pistol grip of the Legacy is better for offhand shooting). Based on barrel length (longer sighting radius) and overall weight alone (heavier=steadier offhand), it would seem that the Marlin has the advantage but not enough to offset bad accuracy from the rifle or sights that aren't good for accurate offhand shooting. Here are pictures of the two guns and their relevant stats.

Marlin 39A

Caliber: 22 Short, Long or Long Rifle
Capacity: Tubular magazine, with patented closure system, holds 26 Short, 21 Long or 19 Long Rifle Cartridges.
Action: Lever action; side ejection; solid top receiver; rebounding hammer; hammer block safety; one-step takedown; deeply blued metal surfaces;gold plated steel trigger.
Stock: Genuine American black walnut with fluted comb; cut checkering; full pistol grip and fore-end; blued steel fore-end cap; swivel studs; grip cap; rubber rifle butt pad; tough Mar-Shield® finish.
Barrel: 24" with Micro-Groove® rifling (16 grooves).
Twist Rate: 1:16" r.h.
Sights: Adjustable semi-buckhorn folding rear, ramp front sight with brass bead and Wide-Scan hood. Solid top receiver tapped for scope mount; scope adaptor base; offset hammer spur (right or left hand) for scope use.
Overall Length: 40"
Weight: 6.5 lbs. [/list:u]

Winchester 9422 Legacy
- Caliber / Gauge: 22 Rimfire
- Magazine Capacity: 15 LR
- Barrel Length: 22 1/2"
- Nominal Overall Length: 39 1/8"
- Nominal Length of Pull: 13 1/2"
- Nominal Drop at Comb: 1 1/8"
- Nominal Drop at Heel: 1 7/8"
- Nominal Weight: 6 lbs.
- Rate of Twist: 1 turn in 16" [/list:u]

ajj · « **Reply #2 on:** May 11, 2004, 11:35:14 AM »

The Marlin has a great reputation for quality and accuracy and may provide more pride of ownership depending on your personal taste in guns. It probably costs more. See whether you can shoulder or even shoot both and make that the deciding factor if competition is all you're really interested in. You can expect both to be sufficiently accurate. I think the 39 has been in continuous production longer than any other gun. After they smooth up with use they give great operation just about forever.

Sendero44 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 12, 2004, 04:43:44 PM »

Go with the Maaelin definitly I have a 1894 it shoots less than 1" at 100 yards with nikon 9x scope it is the best gun i have ever owned and the funnest. I can't say enought about the quality guns that marlin makes they made me a true beliver

RPbump · « **Reply #4 on:** May 12, 2004, 05:56:49 PM »

I have yet to handle a Henry .22 lever action that was not accurate (shot with iron sights out to 100m). There is a "Yellow Boy" version of this rifle that is quite attractive and uses the same action as the stock blued rifle. The lever throw on the Henry's is smooth and short. A Marbles tang sight should be just the ticket towards improving your score with any of the 22 lever action rifles. Rbump

Jason · « **Reply #5 on:** May 12, 2004, 06:36:17 PM »

My experience with the Henry rifles has been just the opposite of yours. Not one of the three was very accurate compared to the Marlins and Winchesters that I have handled and, more importantly, two of the three developed problems feeding or with locking the lever back in place after cycling. I really don't like brass, either, but that's just a "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing. That's not the only lever gun that I've personally seen trouble with. I am only considering the Marlin 39a and the Winchester 9422 Legacy at this point.

Sixgun · « **Reply #6 on:** May 13, 2004, 03:50:02 AM »

I have been shooting Cowboy Rimfire Silhouette for 3 years now. I use a Marlin 39a with a Williams Receiver sight on the rear and a Lyman Globe sight on the front. It really likes CCI Blazer ammo and with this combo I have shot numerous 37s and 38s and two 40s and I got my grand slam last March.

Some of the guys I shoot with use Winchesters and Henrys. The guys with the Winchesters do very good. None of the guys with the Henrys do very good but they all love their Henry's.

I examined a Browning that a guy in my club was considering buying and didn't like it because it would be difficult to mount a receiver sight on. If you don't have a good receiver or tang sight your average high scores will be in the high 20s. I say that because that is what the guys that I have shot with do with the factory, open sights.

If you can afford it, get a Marlin.

Sixgun

Sixgun · « **Reply #7 on:** May 13, 2004, 03:58:35 AM »

Opps! Sorry! That Grand Slam was March of 2003.

Serial Number was #10.

Sixgun

B_Koes · « **Reply #8 on:** May 13, 2004, 05:06:47 AM »

Quote from: Sixgun

...I have shot numerous 37s and 38s and two 40s ...

...

If you don't have a good receiver or tang sight your average high scores will be in the high 20s. I say that because that is what the guys that I have shot with do with the factory, open sights.

If you can afford it, get a Marlin.

That's some pretty fancy shootin' there Sixgun! We just started shooting a side match last year at our IHMSA shoot where several guys bring out their iron sighted lever guns. Most of the others are using Henry's but I'm shooting the 39a and LOVING IT!!

Our targets are 3/8th scale which I believe is smaller than NRA stuff (although we shoot our chickens at 25 yards). You make me want to run out to get a peep sight because I have been using the factory stock sights. I think we've shot about 10 times and while my scores aren't as high as yours, I'm pretty happy because my scores from the last 4 rounds have included 3 that are above 30 (36, 34, and 32).

Does the Lyman front sight really help too? I've got a Lyman receiver peep, but I've been hesitant to drill holes in my receiver. I'm a little leary about getting the tang peep because I'm afraid it will become a distraction because I have to change my grip. What model of front sight do you use?

I'm sorry for hijacking the thread, buy I would like the voice of experience on this sight issue. Thanks!

Sixgun · « **Reply #9 on:** May 13, 2004, 05:34:50 AM »

I like the Williams Receiver sight for the rear sight. It is more stable than the Lyman and easier to find than a Redfield. I do have a Redfield on my Pistol Cartridge Cowboy rifle and it is, in my opinion, the very best but very hard to find.

Lots of guys like the Marble tang sight and I can't knock them because they shoot really high scores with them. I don't like the way they change my grip. I have small hands. They cost too much also.

I got my Marlin just before they quit putting the holes in at the factory. In my opinion, every lever action rifle should be drilled and tapped for a receiver sight. If you are buying a rifle for the sport and want to be serious in the sport, you have to be willing to put the best sights on. Good sights will make almost any good 22 rifle into a target rifle.

I can't remember which front sight I installed. I took my rifle to a local gun shop with a good gunsmith and he told my which Lyman Globe sight to buy. It fits in the dovetail on the front sight ramp and looks kind of funny but it really has increased my scores, and that is the name of the game. I suggest that you take your gun to a gunsmith and have him measure everything and give a suggestion because there are lots of choices and most of them have to do with the hight of your rear sight and you need to get into the middle of your adjustment on your rear sight. I ended up ordering a longer horizontal adjustment screw for my Williams because I couldn't get high enough to adjust for the rams with the one that came with the sight. Williams sent me a longer screw for free and it is easy to change.

By the way, I did get a Lyman receiver sight first. It was a good sight but I had to remember to tighten the long set screw after each adjustment or my shots went all over the place. The Williams uses a lock screw that seems to be a better idea and if I forget to tighten it, the sight is still more stable.

I hope I have helped you instead of confusing you more. If you have any questions, just ask and I will try to answer them.

Sixgun

AMB · « **Reply #10 on:** May 14, 2004, 08:35:21 AM »

Best set up for Lever Action silhouette Marlin 39A, a REPEATABLE rear peep either receiver or tang and a globe front. The Older 39A's are of better quality than the ones produced now. Quality appears to have dropped off significantly when they cut costs such as not drilling and tapping the sides of the receivers. I prefer the old Ballard rifled 39's because theyr'e just neat, and I like the fat forend. But, I don't think they shoot any better than the Microgroove ones. If you get a tang spend the money and get a Marbles. If a receiver sight is preferred the ideal sights are old Lyman's and Redfield's they are tighter and better, prefferably with a target style knob and not the Hunter knob. But, they are getting tough to find and they are not usually cheap, I've found most of mine on auction sites. For a new sight probably the Lymans are the best. This is all assuming you plan on adjusting the sight durring the match. If your not going to adjust, you can lock down a williams real tight. Front sight go with a Lyman 17A. Post insert or dot.

For Long Range the 336 30-30 is a good choice prefferably one with a 24" barrel for longer sight radius.

I personally shoot an old 39A made in '51 or '52 with an old Redfield rear with a small holed peep and a redfield globe with a dot insert. My trigger is excellent and breaks crisply under 3 lbs. The whole out fits looks old and kind of ratty, but shoots so good it's scary.

For Long range I have an old 336A 30-30 even older than the 39A, made around '49. The trigger is just as good as the .22, I have an old Lyman rear peep and a Redfield Globe again with a Dot insert. It also shoots awesome.

I haven't shot as many good scores with my .22 as Sixgun, but have done okay. I think my .22 Grand slam is no. # 11. I still need Rams on Long Range. Had a 9 x 10 last month missed number 7, but maybe next week at our monthly shoot I'll get it.There not to many of them. I'd like to know who else as has the Long Range Grand Slams. However, I do hold the current .22 and Long Range National Records for 60 shot matches. I shot a 54 Small bore and a 56 Long Range last summer at our State Shoot. They probably won't last the summer. Good luck to all the Cowboy Leveraction Silhouette Shooters it sure is a lot of fun, and nice change from shooting Regular Pistol and Rifle Silhouette.

Jason · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2004, 01:54:23 PM »

Thanks for all of the replies, folks. All of the replies over multiple web forums and the ability to hold each of the models in question in my hands today at the match have made my decision for me. I'm going to get a Marlin 39a and am looking for one that's tapped on the side of the receiver for a receiver sight, checkered forearm and pistol grip, and has the micro-groove barrel. If you know of anyone that might have one for sale, let me know. I'll consider those without the drilled and tapped receiver, but won't be able to pay as much for it since I'll have to have it done myself.

I haven't made my mind up between the tang or receiver sights. I want a rifle that's drilled and tapped for the receiver sight, though, just so I can try each one if the urge hits me. For now, I'm leaning toward the receiver sight.

Thanks again for all of the replies.

Jason · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2004, 02:47:41 PM »

Ok. I've decided that I want a receiver sight for now instead of a tang sight. I've heard recommendations for the Williams FP-39TK (the click-adjustable model with target knobs) and the Lyman 66MC. I handled a gun at the shoot last Saturday with the Williams sight and liked it a lot. No one there had the Lyman that I saw, though. Which do you all like better and why?

Sixgun · « **Reply #13 on:** May 18, 2004, 03:59:16 AM »

I have them both. The Williams is on my Marlin 39a and the Lyman is in its box.

I got the Lyman first because I like Lyman stuff and I figured it would be the best choice. It has a long set screw that needs to be tightened down after every adjustment or the sight is really loose and floppy. When you thighten it down, it moves your elevation up slightly, so you have to take that into account every time you make an adjustment. I shot good scores with the sight but I never could get over the way it flopped around.

I got the Williams FP sight next. It has a set screw too but it is designed in such a way that it doesn't change your settings when it is tightened down. If you forget to tighten it, the sight is tighter and does not flop around as much as the Lyman.

The Lyman came with two apatures. One just right for low light in the late afternoon, and one just right for bright sunlight. I think the latter has a .400 hole. It is really small. It is also unavailable or very hard to get unless you buy the Lyman sight. The smallest readily available I have found is .500. This is not through my research but all of the guys at my club have been looking for one and not found one from Brownells or Midway or those types of places. One guy paid $20 for one on e-bay and the bidding was tight right up to the end. Another guy bought a Lyman receiver sight , just to get the apature.

In my opinion, THE BEST RECEIVER SIGHT EVER MADE IS A REDFIELD. A good one for a flat receiver will cost $70 at a gun show and I have been out bid at the last second on e-bay several times for one. I finally got one that fits a m98 mouser and ground the base flat, drilled one hole between the two already there and turned the apature hole around so it could be mounted on the left side of the receiver. It sits on my 357 mag m92 Rossi. I told the match director at the state match about it and he looked through the rule book and stated that all it says is that the sight has to be manufactured for the gun. He said, "It doesn't say who has to manufacture it and You, meaning me, manufactured it for this gun so it is legal."

Sixgun

Jason · « **Reply #14 on:** May 18, 2004, 04:37:35 AM »

How do I know which Redfield receiver sight I'm looking for? I've seen a few that were for flat-sided guns, but the attachment screw hole spacing didn't look right for a Marlin 39a. I don't mind loosening, adjusting, and the tightening the screw on the Williams. Tightening that screw would actually give me a little more confidence that it's going to stay where I put it.

Sixgun · « **Reply #15 on:** May 18, 2004, 04:47:41 AM »

Anything for a Winchester Mod 94 or a Marlin lever action will have the same holes. They are about 1/2 inch apart. If it is for a flat receiver, either the holes are the same or in some instances you can drill a hole in the sight base, where it needs to be. If the hole is under the slide, you have to be careful, because you have to drill a counter sunk hole for the screw head and there may not be enough space.

Before I re-manufactured my first sight, I had a gunsmith who knew all about Redfield sights show me how. I have fixed two of the sights now. The second was better than the first. I'm getting better.

Sixgun

Jason · « **Reply #16 on:** May 18, 2004, 04:52:57 AM »

Thanks for the help. I think I'm just going to go for the Willims FP-39TK for now. I really liked the sight picture with that sight on the gun I handled last weekend, and I'm accustomed to the Williams sights from a few of my other guns.

Sixgun · « **Reply #17 on:** May 18, 2004, 04:56:15 AM »

I have to say that the Williams is probably the best way to go also. If at some time you come accross a Redfield sight, snap it up, but they are hard to come by.

Sixgun

Jason · « **Reply #18 on:** May 18, 2004, 05:01:47 AM »

While I've got your attention, which of the Lyman 17A front sights do you suggest? I was thinking the 17AHB (.404", the shortest one) but I've seen a few reviews that even that one was too tall for some receiver sights. Which do you have on your gun now?

Sixgun · « **Reply #19 on:** May 18, 2004, 05:05:04 AM »

I will have to look when I get home tonight and let you know tomorrow.

Sixgun

Jason · « **Reply #20 on:** May 18, 2004, 08:00:46 PM »

Thanks, Sixgun. This silhouette game sure is a lot more fun than benchrest, and a big part of that fun is all of the friendly people. It's amazing how much effort silhouette shooters will put forth trying to help you beat them.

Sixgun · « **Reply #21 on:** May 19, 2004, 04:25:34 AM »

Jason,

The sight that I have is the 17AHB and it is the shortest one which is .404.

When I got it I had the Lyman sight on the gun and it would work just fine. When I put the Williams FP sight on, it would not adjust high enough so I called Williams and they sent me a new, longer, elevation adjustment screw, and it works fine. They sent it free of charge and it came in less than a week.

You know, I think that the reason us silhouette shooters are always so willing to help people beat us is because we are having a hard time getting people excited about this game. One way to get them excited is to help them have success. No one likes to go out and turn in the low score every time. If we can get people up to a competitive level in a very short time, they don't lose interest before they start getting good scores. About the time they start winning, they realize that in this sport, you are really in competition with yourself. Even the best shooters get into a slump every now and then. When they do someone else wins the match. They feel good cause they beat the best shooter in the club, but the best guy in the club is just trying to get back to shooting his regular average scores and get out of his slump.

Last week at our Thursday practice shoot, one guy who always shoots open sights, because he is a prison guard and wants to shoot like he has to at work, cleaned all ten chickens. He didn't win the match, but he was sooo happy cause that was the first time he cleaned the chickens since they moved them out to 40 meters. He doesn't care what everyone else is shooting, he is focused on what he is shooting.

Another thing that we do all the time is help each other out with a good excuse for shooting poorly. Any lame excuse is readily accepted. "It sure is hard to shoot when the wind gets below 20mph", is a good one. We blame bad ammo or a new sight or a dirty barrel. They all work. The real excuse, "I'm just a lousy shooter" is never inferred but everyone is willing to help.

Well, you asked for my advice and I got carried away. I guess you have to take my musings, along with my advice.

Sixgun

Jason · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2004, 04:38:21 PM »

Thanks for all of the replies, folks. I'm sending out the money order for a Marlin 39A tomorrow and I just ordered the Williams receiver peep (FP-39A w/ target knobs) and Lyman hooded front sight just now, along with enough different rimfire ammo to stock a gun store so I'll have plenty of "testing" to do.

nomad · « **Reply #23 on:** May 20, 2004, 05:21:46 PM »

Apropo of nothing whatsoever:

Rule 3.1.3 Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle

Sub Para:
1. Rear sights may be open sights, receiver or tang sights manufactured for the rifle they are mounted on. :oops:

Jason · « **Reply #24 on:** May 20, 2004, 05:35:57 PM »

Umm.. Williams FP39A = manufactured for a Marlin 39A. What's your point?

nomad · « **Reply #25 on:** May 20, 2004, 05:41:21 PM »

Too fast on the trigger!

Meant to add that IMO it's questionable whether 'modifying' a sight is the same thing as 'manufacturing' it. (If you put a new engine in your car are you an automobile manufacturer?)
I'd think that a call to NRA would give a more insightful answer than a match director's opinion and I doubt that I'd put much effort into redesigning sights until I at least asked Greg what the organization's position is on this.
I'd call the 17A a sure thing. It's designed to fit anything with a dovetail and that includes the rifles being discussed. (Although that same sub-para says: "Front sights must be post or bead, may be hooded or if interchangeable may use post inserts only." A dot -- depending on the configuration -- might be open to challenge, especially if it's a stand alone insert.)
I'd like to hear an opinion from the powers that be on some of the other sights being discussed...
Seems to me that the equipment race is off to a good start...

Jason · « **Reply #26 on:** May 20, 2004, 07:07:02 PM »

Well if that sight isn't legal, then every single competitor that I've seen at cowboy lever action shoots was shooting illegal guns. What are you talking about with "modifying a sight" anyway? I am not going to modify the sight at all, and the manufacturer did indeed manufacturer the sight for that exact model of gun. All I am planning to do is to use the two manufacturer provided screws to attach the sight the way the manufacturer says to attach it.

I guess I'm still missing something. I don't see any possible way that the rule you quote doesn't allow exactly what I'm doing, and I'm not particularly worried since everyone at the shoot was using either a receiver peep or tang sight manufacturered by a company other than the one that made the gun, but intended for that model gun. You are correct in that you can only use the post or bead inserts into the lyman hooded sights, though. They come with an assortment of different inserts, but only the thin post, thick post, and post with bead (which is what the factory front sight looks like) are legal.

Once again, what are you talking about?

Edit: Quick question.. are you referring to my choice of sights when you talk about "modifying a sight" or that stuff that Sixgun posted up there earlier?

nomad · « **Reply #27 on:** May 21, 2004, 04:44:34 AM »

Jason,

My apologies.
That's what I get for typing late in the evening and trying to take phone calls at the same time -- I didn't make the post clear enough. And we were sending overlapping posts, which didn't help. ;-)

What you're doing is IMO fully correct. The sight setup that you've chosen is exactly what I've suggested to friends.

What I was commenting on -- and didn't clarify -- was Sixgun's contention that he was 'manufacturing' a sight by grinding it to fit a rifle it wasn't actually made for.

With the understanding that this thread is being read by other people who are trying to decide what is and isn't OK for the game, IMO some things posted earlier are pretty questionable.

I have several sets of sights left over from when I used to shoot ATC. If I modify one -- let's say a set of Redfield Internationals -- and mount it on my Winchester 61, does that mean those sights were 'manufactured' for the rifle and legal? I don't think so!

How about diopters? Lenses? If they're designed to fit the sight that I've re-manufactured to fit the rifle, and the sight's OK, are they OK?

(FWIW I'm thinking that AMB meant a -- fully legal -- post and bead insert when he said 'Dot'. )

I think we're opening a worm can (similar to the problem that popped up in hunter rifle a while ago) when match directors start allowing sights 'made for a M98 Mauser but modified to fit a lever gun' as something 'manufactured for the rifle they are mounted on'. Re-manufactured is NOT the same as manufactured. (That interpretation is a little too Klintonian. What's the definition of 'is'?)

As I said, it looks like the equipment race is underway.

Wonder what would happen if I were to hang a set of Internationals -- front and rear -- on that 61 (instead of the straight post and original Lyman tang that are currently on board) and haul it to the next cowboy match? Or, maybe, a Walther rear with Gehmann diopter? (After all, I'd only be re-manufacturing things so they fit.) Oughta be amusing...

AMB · « **Reply #28 on:** May 21, 2004, 08:51:10 AM »

Nomad, thanks for clarifying my poor description of front sight insert. Yes, I meant post and bead. I totally agree with your assessment of manufactured and remanufactured. The spirit of the game is sights as manufactured for the rifle it was intended for. Technically, what Sixgun proposes is not in line with the rules, and if protested may have a problem. However, as a match director I would let it go and not call him on it assuming there is no competitive advantage. Which I don't think there is going to be by his description, despite his massive modifications to make it work. Yet, he's definitely pushing the envelope. There are a lot of receiver sights for different rifles that are essentially the same. It's just some are for rounded receivers and some for flat. And, if a guy grinds a round one flat I 'm not going to run him off. Ultimately, regardless of whats done, if it looks like an appropriate sight and acts like one then it's fine by me.

But, as you pointed out people are reading these posts to get ideas and make decisions, and there are those that will push this area. I've already seen people attach weaver style bases going to the rear and then mounting there sights on it so as to lengthen the sight radius. It was but a skip and hop to mounting Redfield Internationals. We put a quick stop to that. Your right about the fact you could have an equipment race, but overall I'm pretty comfortable with the rules. I don't want to see a free forall, but on the other hand I don't want to nickle and dime people and run them off for silly technical issues.

nomad · « **Reply #29 on:** May 21, 2004, 09:37:57 AM »

AMB,

Agreed. At our local matches, we don't much care what you bring. Anyone can shoot anything that's anywhere close to the rules. One of the reasons Cowboy's growing so fast is that it's FUN! (And we need to keep it that way.) I'm not even adjusting the sights on that old 61 -- just holding over for anything beyond chickens -- which may be why I'm still 2 animals down on my GS! (Of course, it just could be because I'm a lousy shot!) But we're keeping it loose and we're getting new people to come out and shoot.

That said, if someone's going for a GS or trying to set records, we expect and require that shooter to be within the book definitions.

We're holding a cowboy rimfire and pistol cartridge state championship this year at our club. (AFAIK it'll be the first one in TX.) For that one, we'll have to line up all the ducks, make sure they're waddling a straight line and run a real tech :eek: and I've been trying to study up on the rules in preparation. If we begin to see any really unorthodox sight setups -- which is about the only real point I can see in this game where there's likely to be disagreement -- I'm wondering how we're going to shake them out...?