Author Topic: Cecil Epp / PR Bullets tests the Savage 10ML-II's (Read 1182 times)

RandyWakeman · « **on:** May 12, 2004, 03:57:22 PM »

http://www.prbullet.com/savage2.htm

grouse · « **Reply #1 on:** May 13, 2004, 06:03:32 AM »

What a nice review by Cecil. Smokeless Muzzleloading seems to be really taking off fast. As he stated the factory guns from Savage seem to need some tweeking to make them real shooters. With all that in mind, the Henry Ball limited Edition is looking like a steal, if you are interested in shooting and using smokeless. Bedding, extra pillars, and so on would get pretty expensive for someone to do. If they could do it. As far as sub-bases and Duplex loads, that really isnt for me. 5744 powder, and a DeadCenter it likes, what else could be better?

DannoBoone · « **Reply #2 on:** May 16, 2004, 06:05:52 AM »

Cecil's enthusiasm for the Savage smokeless certainly has changed 180
degrees!!!

I ended up getting the 10MLBSS-II and have mixed emotions about not
getting the Henry Ball Edition. Aside from a little sanding for stock relief
from the barrel, the factory stock fits perfectly. I've read about others
who have this rifle experiencing a bad fit in relation to the recoil lug, but
this one is as it should be. Cecil has a REAL good point about the pillars.

AndyHass · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2004, 09:57:23 AM »

It doesn't surprise me that some people are a little slow to accept the Savage. Not because of the safety issue; I've already said here several times that I think this should be a non-issue to anyone who half thinks it through.
As for closing down seasons, I don't think that will happen. Worst-case scenario is they don't budge and allow smokeless. If they did open it up here in Michigan and the Savage was improved a little, would I get one and hunt with it? Probably. Will I be upset if they stick to the no-smokeless regs during ML season? No. The way I see it, the definition of that season is completely arbitrary anyway. If you keep stretching it forever, it will cease to be anything special. We could get to fast-twist smokeless rigs with a .308 cartridge-shaped breech shooting .35-.30 saboted standard .30 caliber bullets or the like, truly matching low- to mid-range high power rifles. Then we might as well make all single-shots legal. As long as the power is limited by the powder, we've likely about reached the technical limits of what a pryo/777 powered gun can do (or close!). If it's a matter of the cleanliness/convenience of the gun, then we should all be shooting catridge guns anyways.
If you really need the extra season, switch powders and reserve smokeless for regular firearm season. As long as this is legal, I have no problems. This fall will be the first year that I will carry a shotgun afield in 10 years...I've hunted with a smokepole and out-harvested most of my neighbors year after year. One shot is not a limitation, you shouldn't need a second (though it would have helped a couple times :roll: ).
Even then, the shotgun will ride backup to my new Omega. :grin:

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2004, 05:35:49 PM »

Quote from: AndyHass

As long as the power is limited by the powder, we've likely about reached the technical limits of what a pryo/777 powered gun can do (or close!).

Not even close. Neither Pyrodex pellets nor Triple 7 loose powder are in any way a "black powder performance" substitute.

If muzzle velocity was the issue, adding barrel volume by length or a larger caliber lets you burn more and more pellets or loose powder. Lighter bullets do the same. Any number of inlines are very competent 200 yard deer rifles as is, and it has been that way for some time now. Anyone can crack the 2004 Knight catalog and find factory pellet loads with over 2600 fps muzzle velocity, or take the kinetic energy path and find a 3000 fpe load. The Encore owner's manual has a 3163 fpe muzzle energy load as well. All the recoil most folks care to enjoy. :roll:

With deer hunting a sub-100 yard sport, in large measure-- even with centerfires, the main distinction is simply "you have one shot, you had better make it a good one."

AndyHass · « **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2004, 02:18:07 PM »

Think this through though. You can't arbitrarily increase the bore, or you're shooting bigger, heavier, lower-BC bullets. Likewise you can't keep extending the barrel, as nobody is going to hunt with a 100-inch barrel.
I'll put it this way then...We've nearly reached the PRACTICAL limits.
While you might not think pyro and 777 are performance equals of BP, they are a heck of a lot closer to BP than smokeless. And it's an easier line to draw unless we go back to caliber limits and such to control what kind of single-shots we have out there.
It only takes one shot to go through someone's house a half mile away. I've seen just as many irresponsible muzzleloaders out there as shotgun/rifle hunters.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2004, 03:14:39 PM »

Quote from: AndyHass

Think this through though. You can't arbitrarily increase the bore, or you're shooting bigger, heavier, lower-BC bullets. Likewise you can't keep extending the barrel, as nobody is going to hunt with a 100-inch barrel.
I'll put it this way then...We've nearly reached the PRACTICAL limits.
While you might not think pyro and 777 are performance equals of BP, they are a heck of a lot closer to BP than smokeless.

Who said anything about "arbitrary?" The majority of sabots shot today are .50 caliber, .45 caliber projectiles. Going to .54 caliber, there are certainly 45 / 54 sabots of last formulation available. Same, identical bullets can be fired, and currently are.

Ever shoulder or fire a Knight Extreme .52? It weighs LESS than a Knight Extreme .45 or .50. Your opinion may be that synthetic flammable solid propellants are "closer" to blackpowder-- but they aren't "powder" at all, and smokeless has been used for a small arms propellant for at least 100 years longer.

Were aren't even close to the limit as far as what is presently capable in sabot polypropylene blends, or the quality of barrels that could (and should) be used in muzzleloaders. If you think there will be nothing further developed in muzzleloading propellants beyond Triple 7 in the next 17 years, we just could not disagree more. Morton Thiokol already has done so, it is a matter of marketing focus.

As it is, several options exist today to cleanly harvest a deer at 200 yards-- yet, sub-100 yards are vast majority. A clean kill at the range you hunt is just that, the differences beyond that are just not particulary salient.