Author Topic: 30-30AI how many fps? (Read 2178 times)

jeff223 · « **on:** May 20, 2004, 02:42:37 PM »

i just got a good accurate load for my 30-30 worked up this spring and now i am going to make this a 30-30AI.i have a 98 Mauser in 35 WhelenAI and they say a 10% increase in FPS from the standard 35 Whelen.would the 30-30 be the same?how much increase can i expect out of this?for $15.00 why not do it

back to the reloading bench for a new load :?

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2004, 03:12:39 PM »

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartw.html

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030a170_dat.htm

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_all.asp?CaliberID=336

mag41vance · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2004, 03:25:09 PM »

Does making the change limit your ammo choices to just the AI. Because if you were to lose the ability to shoot 30-30 winchesters that would be a downer. Some of the best 30-30 rounds are winchester factory loads. I'd really like to figure out what it is.
vance

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2004, 03:49:17 PM »

Quote from: mag41vance

Does making the change limit your ammo choices to just the AI.

I suspect you'd lose a little velocity with the factory ammo, as the case would blow out to the new chamber and the increase in volume might drop the pressure a tad. The idea behind AI chambers is that you can make AI brass by shooting factory ammo. 30-30 AI is reputed to be quite accurate with fireforming loads in 30-30 brass, probably because it and the k-hornet can headspace solidly on the rim. I still haven't decided if I want to shoot my new 30-30 the way it is for comparison, or just ream it without ever shooting it as a 30-30.

Mitch.

JPH45 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2004, 03:52:55 PM »

10% is a fairly common quote of velocity gain when rechambering to the AI version of a case. For the 30-30 this can mean anywhere between 200 and 230 fps, and while a number of people report gains of a bit more, I am not convinced that some gains reported are not a result of boosting pressures as well. Simple increases in case volume are not all there is to velocity gains....witness the 30-06 and the 308 using 150 grain bullets.

While factory ammo can be shot in an AI chamber, the single best way to get fire formed brass, I wouldn't bet on it being as accurate as in the unaltered chamber. I've yet to be convinced that the 30-30 AI is so vastly superior to the 30-30 WCF that it is worth the effort and being stuck with a wildcat chambering. The simple way to get more power is to buy more gun. Why be stuck with the hope of 2600 fps when a 308 will EASILY deliver 2800 and you're still shooting factory ammo................

Thats why I'm waiting on some reports from the shooters I have met here before jumping off this bridge.

jeff223 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2004, 04:19:51 PM »

if you handload for the 30-30 you might as well do it.if you dont handload dont.the 35 WhelenAI that i have came with a 100 fireformed brass.regular 35 Whelen brass was used to fireform.when i need more i can fireform with light handloads from what i am told.i have also been told the regular 35 Whelen ammo will shoot good out of my gun with good accuracy.

i also shoot with my smith at the range from time to time and he has rechambered a 22 hornet to K hornet.i watched him shoot the 22 hornet ammo out of his rifle fireforming the brass to K hornet.he got good accuracy from the hornet ammo while he did this.

it is kind of like jumping off a bridge like you said jph45 but what the hell.this 30-30 is just a play around rifle for me anyway.i hunt with bow&arrow most of the time and with my 20 ultraslug and my Knight Rifle muzz loader the rest of the time. if i do go out with a rifle i have other choices too.it seems like i have to many rifles around now and i just got a TC G2 Contender that im going to play around with.its getting overwhelming for me :? i will let you know how it turns out

RV,hows the 30-30 shooting for you?just wondered because you havnt posted any results for a while

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2004, 05:26:53 PM »

Well. I'm in for the conversion...as a matter of fact I almost ordered the dies for it tonight from Midway...LOL Has anyone checked out the RCBS dies? :eek: They are proud of those babies! I believe the Lee was like 24 bucks...I wonder how it will shoot using the BLC-2 you were having so good a luck with jeff223....and too many rifles? Is there such a thing? :lol:

Fred M · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2004, 07:40:02 PM »

JPH45.
If you go for the AI then the new version with the stronger action must be used. Otherwise stay with the 30-30. The reason for this as I see it is that all published loads for the 30-30 are for 37kcup designed for ancient leaver actions. The new Handi's can handle 49 kcup that is 25% more pressure.

The 30-30 AI has about 50gr water volume compared to 38gr for the standard.
That is an increase of 30%. unfortunately the Handi can't utilize all the increase by the 49kcup limit. But a 25% increase in pressure puts the 30-30AI right in the 308 class. Which not all that shabby. Its a beauty.

One other item is you are not restricted by OAL like the leaver guns, creating even more case volume.

My guess of a starting load would be 40.0gr of Varget.
Water volume x Powder bulk density .95 x85% = 40.4 gr for a starting load with a suitable slow burner.

mag41vance · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2004, 01:46:41 AM »

Quote from: jeff223

RV,hows the 30-30 shooting for you?just wondered because you havnt posted any results for a while

Well I've been loading alot of test rounds but haven't had time to test yet. I haven't shot the 30-30 for about 3 weeks. I've been trying to get my favorite caliber (41 mag) figured out with some cast stuff. I'm trying to get a good load for my Redhawk that my Marlin will also shoot.
I've done it with jacketed, now I'm tweaking the cast stuff. As soon as I can I'm taking all my NEF rifles and shotguns out and get my cards ready for the next PM. I ran out of time on the last PM.
RV

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2004, 12:10:19 PM »

There is a lot of hype associated with AI and any other "wildcat" cartridge really. The .30-30 AI is certainly NO exception. You'll find precious little curent data and likely NO pressure tested data.

The rule in increasing the case capacity is you gain 1% in velocity for each 4% increase in case capacity. It is my understanding this is really close to correct across the board as long as pressures are the same.

What happens tho is because there is little data folks generall up the pressure drastically and think the increase in velocity is because of the larger case whereas it really is because of more pressure. In the .30-30 AI if you stick to same pressure as in the parent case you'll be lucky to pick up another 100-150 fps. In the real world this is meaningless.

As to why not? Well 30-30 dies are dirt cheap and readily available used as well as new. AI dies are not cheap and not available used very often. Don't over look that cost.

GB

jeff223 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2004, 12:26:07 PM »

i know what you are saying graybeard.

there are some Lee 30-30AI dies for $23.00 but all the rest are lots more for any AI dies.im passing on the 30-30AI but i think there will be others doing it.

thanks for your input graybeard :toast:

Fred M · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2004, 09:08:56 PM »

Graybird.
You talk like all the rest people that don't have a clue about wildcats?
Tell me how many wildcats you have used and developed loads for?
Where do you think all of the modern high intensity cartridges came from?
Obviously they were not created by nay sayers like you.

I am very happy to hear that there are some people with Handi's building 30-30 AI's. They will get a lot of fun from them and exchange loading development. The only thing I will say, if the rifle does not shoot good in 30-30 it will not get any better in the 30-30 AI.

Of course there is not a lot of loading data for wildcats, that is no surprise otherwise it would not be a wild cat. The 30-30 AL or the Aardvark is one of the best conversion for a modern strong 30-30 rifle, and the Handi is included in that it has plenty of strength. 49 kcup working pressure is very good and the 30-30 AI does not need to be loaded to any more pressure to reach 308 Win ballistics.

Wild catting is an investigative hobby and not meant to through together a mindless load.

Other major reasons for a wild cat is long case life, minimum or no case stretching and more efficient use of powder. Fred M.

dawei · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2004, 10:50:23 PM »

Quote from: Fred M

Graybird.
You talk like all the rest people that don't have a clue about wildcats?
Tell me how many wildcats you have used and developed loads for?
Where do you think all of the modern high intensity cartridges came from?
Obviously they were not created by nay sayers like you.

I am very happy to hear that there are some people with Handi's building 30-30 AI's. They will get a lot of fun from them and exchange loading development. The only thing I will say, if the rifle does not shoot good in 30-30 it will not get any better in the 30-30 AI.

Of course there is not a lot of loading data for wildcats, that is no surprise otherwise it would not be a wild cat. The 30-30 AL or the Aardvark is one of the best conversion for a modern strong 30-30 rifle, and the Handi is included in that it has plenty of strength. 49 kcup working pressure is very good and the 30-30 AI does not need to be loaded to any more pressure to reach 308 Win ballistics.

Wild catting is an investigative hobby and not meant to through together a mindless load.

Other major reasons for a wild cat is long case life, minimum or no case stretching and more efficient use of powder. Fred M.

Fred:

I ain't trying to be a SH!@#$%^&*T BUT.............

It's GRAYBEARD and THROW.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2004, 09:29:47 AM »

I ain't gonna presume to speak for Graybeard, but I have a fair amount of wildcat experience and find them largely overrated. The only ones I have gotten really significant improvements with were a .25-35 Imp and a .257 AI. In both of those cases, the improvement was largely a matter of being able to stuff enough of the rather bulky AA-3100 (IMR-4831) in the case to do some good. Even there I exceeded normal factory pressures of those notoriously underloaded factory cartridges by a good bit.

The laws of physics are immutable. There ain't no magic in a slight change in case size or shape. It takes pressure to make velocity and the pressure rises a lot faster than the velocity. Just how much of an increase in case volume it takes to get even a slight increase in velocity with the same powder and pressure oughta be obvious to anyone who has chronied .308 Win and .30-06 side by side.

JPH45 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2004, 10:31:51 AM »

DJ, that is sooooooo dead on. I have always thought that the 308/30-06 were pefect examples of case volume, powder burn rates and velocities atttained. The whole intent of the militarys development of the 308 was to get 30-06 performance with 150 grain bullets from a smaller cartridge. The 300 Savage case is often pointed to as the predecessor of the 308. The 300 Weatherby Mag also fits into this example as a somewhat extreme example (the 30-378 takes the place of most extreme) of what happens as volume and pressure is increased. The 30-378 is a true oxymoron, being the practical absudity of carring ideas to their logical extreme.

Another exellent example of the volume/pressure/velocity relationship is the 38 Special/357 Magnum/357Maximum cases. They all share the same case body diameter, the only difference being in length.

The 38 Special case is 1.155" in length, operates at 17,000 psi and drives 158 grain bullets to 900 fps.

The 357 Magnum is 1,290" in length operates at 35,000 psi and drives 158 grain bullets to 1300 fps.

The 357 Maximum is 1.605" in length, operates at 48,000 cup and drives 158 grain bullets at 2000 fps.

(all velocities for pistol/revolver length barrels)

The usable capacity in grains of water for the cases are respectively, 18.2, 17.8 and 27.7. The slightly higher capacity of the 38 Special reflects the extra material that makes up the 357 Magnum case (source: 18th Edition Handloaders Digest: Case capacity for cartridges fired in sporting chambers, pg. 205)

It is plain to see, that velocity is much more closely related to pressure than to volume, and if anyone is taking a case, "improving" it and reporting velocity increases in excess of 150 fps, they are almost certainly getting the extra velocity from pressure. Nothing wrong with that, so long as one is being honest with themselves and others about it.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2004, 11:45:56 AM »

Quote from: jeff223

i have a 98 Mauser in 35 WhelenAI and they say a 10% increase in FPS from the standard 35 Whelen.

Jeff, I seriously doubt it. I built a .35 Whelen on a Mauser back when it was a wildcat. Out of a 24" barrel, 56 grains of IMR-4320 gave me 2550 fps with 250 grain bullets. 10% over that would be 2800 fps. Are you getting anywhere near that?

Fred M · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2004, 05:33:27 PM »

JPH45
You just described the 30-30AI in a Handi. 25% more pressure and 30% more case volume. Each Wildcat is different and has a different expansion ratio and volume increase. If you guys insist on comparing apples with oranges then just have at it.

Just talked to a BR shooter yesterday. he shortened the 308 Win to 1-3/4" to remove the air space below the bullet, changed the shoulder to 30 deg and get the same velocity same charge as a the 308 Win with 150 gr match bullets. 7.62x47 is another Wildcat on the 308 Win and another winner.

More with less. My 25 Hunter is a shortened 22-250 (1.817" 46.6 gr H2 volume), and will shoot side by side with a 257 Roberts. Sofar the cases have been reloaded 6-7 times with only neck sizing. I have a 136 cases and shot them all yesterday in 4 score matches. These are all Wildcats with demonic accuracy, and they don't blow up any rifles

Most people that turned a 35 Whelan into an AI did not do it gain a few feet velocity and a few feet it is, but to have a better shoulder to retain head space. I am not getting into this silly XXXXX AI any further, since it is at the boring stage and I need to reload all my empties. End of story. Fred M

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2004, 06:23:17 PM »

Well.. :roll: ...interesting mix of opinions on the topic at large! I for one have decided to do the AI conversion on my 30-30 barrel....and for a very specific reason.......because I want to and because I've never done one before...... :agree:

handirifle · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2004, 06:59:59 PM »

deadeye
I think you are DEADON. That is the main reason, to me for most of the wildcatting. It's because you want to.

In my mind the 30-30 AI makes more sense than most. One big reason is that in the Handi and probably the marlin too, you CAN push the pressures up quite a bit because you are also straightening the case walls too. This, according to all the latest data anyway, should REDUCE case bolt thrust and at the same time give you a boost in velocity, whatever it might be. If your chamber was a tight one I'd say accuracy should go way up cause you can headspace on the rim and shoulder with a neck size.

Good luck on it.

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 24, 2004, 12:27:47 AM »

I'm looking forward to it....only problem is I won't be able to report on it till I can get my reloading room set up after my big move. Hopefully I'l be able to get back into loading soon...I have several lil projects that are just going stagnant because I just don't have the time to shoot right now. :cry: Now I'm adding another to the pile..... :x

jeff223 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 24, 2004, 06:14:16 AM »

Leftoverdj,this rifle that i have came from my smith and he did the load work for this rifle.he said through the chrono with a Hor 250gr round nose shot at 2650 fps.i never shot it through one my self.i think a 250gr bullet at 2650 is good enough for anything as far as i am concerned.i dont think it will ever see 2800fps with a 250gr bullet.with a 200gr bullet im sure it will

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #21 on:** May 24, 2004, 07:06:07 AM »

Jeff, that's about what I was expecting. An extra hundred fps from an AI version is realistic. A 10% velocity increase is not. You really ought to go ahead and shoot that thing. Mine was very pleasant to shoot. The recoil was in the form of a big push rather than a sharp blow. I routinely shot it from prone without discomfort.

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** May 24, 2004, 08:34:22 AM »

Handirifle.
http://www.clymertool.com/cgi-bin/reamer.cgi.

Check this out and compare it with your exisying chamber before you get into the conversion. These are good reamer dimensions . If you have an oversized barrel like I have on my Ultra 25-06, you need to stoke a lot more coal and I meen a lot and accuracy is not written in the stars.

Dave Kiff who makes the reamers for Midway would make you a custom reamer designd for the Handi 30-30. Its the same price, and the pilot should fit the bore within .0002". The Midway reamers come with solid pilots made for standard bore dimensions? Four thou slop will not make a good chamber.

Mac11700.
Loading for a leaver gun is not the same as a single shot. You are restricted by OAL. Stick with the Handi make up. OAL is what you can make it, the more the better.

Jeff 223

Who shoots 200 and 250 gr bullets in a 30-30AI?

?? You are off the band width. Fred M.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #23 on:** May 24, 2004, 08:44:20 AM »

Quote from: Fred M

Jeff 223

Who shoots 200 and 250 gr bullets in a 30-30AI??? You are off the band width. Fred M.

Keep up, Fred. Jeff started this thread by asking if he would get the same amount of improvement in .30-30 AI that he gets from his .35 Whelen AI. The answer is "Yes, about 100 fps if pressure levels are kept the same".

handirifle · « **Reply #24 on:** May 24, 2004, 08:57:29 AM »

One other item not to forget in the Handi's is the rimmed cartridges eject easier. Sometime the rimmless rounds give their owners fits.

One thing I thought a lot about was going to a 30-40 Krag from a 30-30 barrel. That would sole a LOT of issues addressed here. That would NOT be a home job though.

Fred M · « **Reply #25 on:** May 24, 2004, 04:19:06 PM »

Leftoverdj.
YA Alzheimer, I thought we were talking 30-30AI. 200 feet is what I think.
With all that case volume no need to go over 49.5 kcup. To bad I have not got a 30-30 I sure would give it a go.

Talked to my BR gun smith, he said the lateral play on the under-lug would be an easy job to mill 4 square spots inside the action and build up the lug with a tig welder in 4places then mill the weld to fit snug. This will be a job after I get some decent accuracy. maybe?

I put on 4 pieces of shim stock 6 thou in the back and 3 thou on the front behind the hinge pin on both sides using JB WEld as a glue. the action is really tight now. I honed the shim stock until it fitted perfect. I also honed the latch recess for 100% engagement.
The barrel latch was only engaging less than 1/16", no wonder some rifles fly open when you shoot them. Fred M.

handirifle · « **Reply #26 on:** May 24, 2004, 05:54:13 PM »

Fred,
How much gap was there from the breech of the barrel to the face of the receiver before you started the shimming? Sounds like you had a LOT of room there.

Fred M · « **Reply #27 on:** May 24, 2004, 07:57:38 PM »

No, it is not longetutional but lateral along the underlug, .007" on each side and near the hinge pin .003" on each side. This will make the rifle vibrate when the bullet creates torque. You can actually wiggle the barrel side to side without the shims. Of course the barrel latch and the hinge pin will stop most of the movement but neither is totally rotationally restraint. Hope that this will explain it. I think it will improve accuracy. Will try the longer 117gr bullets in a few days to find out if my theory has merits. The longer bullets will bridge the free bore and contact the lands and prevent some of the blow by because of the oversize barrel.

Did you read my post, " The scoop on the 25-06 Ultra."?

Fred M.

jeff223 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 25, 2004, 11:17:02 AM »

Fred,i biggest bullets out of my 30-30 so far are 150gr.the 200 and 250s are out of a 35Whelen AI

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 25, 2004, 03:19:56 PM »

Fred you mentioned an off the shelf reamer will leave several thousand slop in your chamber(heck the NEF chamber prolly already has that much slop so the reamer won't touch it!)....other than workin your brass...and if ya don't full length resize...what is it going to hurt?