Author Topic: DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?  (Read 813 times)

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Offline m-g Willy

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DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?
« on: May 20, 2004, 05:01:19 PM »
I am going to temper a knife that's 1095 steel by heating it to non magnetic state then quenching it in oil ,then heating it to 400 degress for a hour.This will give me a R 57-59 hardness------ :?  I hope.  Now what I want to know is --does this sound about right? or am I missing something somwhere? Also, is there any advantage  to tempering a blade more than once? Thanks for any input.--Willy

Offline Joel

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DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2004, 06:20:02 AM »
I was hoping Tim or one of the other forgers would answer this, but they don't seem to be around.  I work almost totally with stainless steels, but have done some tempering(not heat treating) of carbon steels.  To answer your question in two parts:

1.  For a great discussion on heat treating carbon steel, I recommend you go to http://www.ckdforums.com.
Click on enter, then on the "how to's".  There is a great article on heat treating(it's the first areticle under forging) by Max Burnett that is designed to be read by the newbie, and not by a metallurgist.  He explains the process quite fully.  No need to do the whole tutorial here and start talking about austenite, martensite, normalizing etc, when it's already available at CKD's excellant site.

2.  Tempering.  In Max's article he disdains using water(brine) as a quenching medium; however 1095 is listed as a "water quenching" steel under admiral steel's heat treat section.  I've used both when quenching old file blades< which are mostly W-2 or maybe 1095>and found I like the water(brine) quench for those particular steels.  You can also oil quench, irregardless of what the specs say, but you get a better steel if you follow the experts' advice: I think, anyway.  To make a Brine quenching solution, I use Canning(not table) salt, and dissolve enough into my can of hot(not boiling) water so an egg taken out of the refrigerator floats.  Never have quite figured out what to do with the egg after that.  The water should be at a temp of around 170 degrees when you go to quench your blade. Also, I checked Admiral Steel's heat treat section, and they say that for 1095, 400 degrees F will give you an Rc of around 62, which is a bit brittle if you leave the whole knife in that state.  First of all, you heat the blade, which should be at least clean(kind of polished a little helps) until you reach a "straw" colour, not for any specific amount of time; it will vary quite a bit depending on how accurate your oven is, the blade size, thickness etc.
Second...you can raise the oven temperature up to 450 degrees, and that will give you an Rc of around 56-57.  Or.. you can heat at 400 degrees to 62, and then "soften" the back of the blade to blue colour, which is around Rc 45, while keeping the edge at 62 by (a) being very quick with a blow torch or (b) keeping the edge immersed in water while heating the back to blue.  I use (b).  That's known as differential heat treating or differential tempering, take your choice.  I usually temper my blades 3 times, sticking them in the freezer for 3 days between the first 2 tempering cycles to do what is a sort of poor man's cryogenic treatment.  Good way to get into an argument in some circles is to mention that method(the freezer). I"ve tempered both ways, with and without the freeze) and found the blade to have greater lateral strength ("flex") and hold an edge at least as well, if not better, than just a plain triple temper.  Any carbon steel guys who read this, please inject your two cents(or more) in, since ya'll probably have more exprience.  However, what I've describe is a sort of basic treatment which should work.  Have fun.

Offline m-g Willy

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DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2004, 04:28:11 PM »
Thanks Joel. I think I'm gonna try the brine quench.  What does tempering more than once do for the blade?--Willy

Offline Joel

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DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2004, 08:18:13 PM »
Hey willy,

The purpose of tempering to begin with is to convert steel from it's brittle heat quenched state(austenite, normally) to a more relaxed, less stressed state(martensite).  Although steel in the martensitic stage still can have a lot of stress within its' matrix, the tempering process halts the steel at that proper state.  Trouble is, as soon as you remove a blade from heat and start to move it  towards the quench, some of it either starts to revert back to austenite, or sometimes not all the steel in the  matrix is converted totally during the first tempering cycle.  By tempering two or three times you increase the amount of martensite in your steel and get a better blade.  You can overdo that process also, but that's another story.  At least two tempering cylcles give excellent results...three is better...more is not necessarily good.  Hope this helps.

Offline m-g Willy

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DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2004, 01:14:58 AM »
Thanks again Joel, it might take me awhile  :?  but I think I got this tempering thing down now :roll:  Thanks for the info  --Willy

Offline TimWieneke

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tempering
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2004, 06:28:01 AM »
I was gone and missed this one.  Sorry bout that.

I typically don't work with precise temperatures and rockwell hardness so I wouldn't be of much help there.  I just watch the pretty colors...lol.

Seriously, after quenching the blade in oil, I take a piece of sandpaper and rub one side of it to get it all shiny so I can watch to see what color the steel becomes.  I then heat the tang until it turns blue - being very careful to not allow any of the blade to turn purple or blue yet.  You will see some dark straw color at the base of the blade - you're pretty much ok there.  When that's done, I heat the spine of the blade, letting it turn blue and watching the middle and edge of the blade to make sure they don't turn blue.  

Here's where just having used the steels comes into play.  If I have a small hunting or patch knife that I don't intend to really use as a chopper, I let the edge turn to about a medium straw color.  It it's a longer blade that I do intend to use for chopping, I allow the blade to turn to a darker straw color.  Whatever way I go, I do allow the tip to get a little darker than the rest of the edge.  Tips tend to get the worst treatment and are best served being a little softer (thus, less brittle and less prone to break off) than the rest of the blade.  

Basically what is happening is that heating quenched 1095 to the color of blue turns it into a spring - softer than you want for an edge, but very tough and chip/crack resistant.  It will flex rather than break.  The different colors of "straw" will bring the steel into somewhere between the soft/toughness or the spring and the hard/brittleness of a file.  The darker the straw, the more towards the soft/toughness of a spring it will reach.

If you have an edge that you really anticipate is going to take some serious shock/punishment - you may want to take it just past dark straw into the peacock and/or lavendar colors.  I recently did this with a throwing knife I made.  Granted, this will not hold an edge as long as a straw colored edge, but edge holding was not the goal - overall toughness and shock resistance from throwing into a log was.

Good luck with it.

Tim