Author Topic: Wad substitutions (Read 1586 times)

Kilgor · « **on:** May 20, 2004, 08:13:32 PM »

I am new to the science (art??) of reloading and would appreciate your expert advice.

I am wanting to load low pressure shells (approx. 5000 psi) for discharge in a damascus barrelled shotgun. I have found several recipes for 2 3/4 in. 12 ga. 7/8 oz loads using various powders, hulls, primers and wads. I am leaning towards a AA hull. Win 209 primer, Solo 1000 powder with a WAA12SL wad. At least that is the recipe published by Accurate Arms.

Now the question, can I safely substitute a WAA12L wad for the WAA12SL wad without adversely affecting the pressure? By all rights I should expect the ballistic properties to change given that there seems to be considerable differences in properties when one varies any one of the components. Part of the problem I'm having is that I haven't found a recipe that specifies a WAA12L wad which seems strange to me as this wad is designed for 7/8 oz loads.

dave375hh · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2004, 03:36:00 AM »

Don't do it! There are no safe loads to use in damascus barrels unless they're loaded with black powder. And I'd think about that for a while to. Loading smokless loads in a damascus barreled gun is questionable even before you switch components. Sooner or later you will wreck the gun and very possibly yourself also.

If you just have to shoot it fit it with sub-guage tubes first and they'll contain the pressure. Otherwise look at your hand, fingers, face, arms, or eyes and ask yourself which of these you don't need any longer.

There are bold reloaders, and there are old reloaders, but few old bold reloaders.

texasbilly · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2004, 10:00:09 AM »

I agree with Dave375HH. Don't shoot the damascus barreled shotgun with smokeless powder shells. It isn't worth the risk. His suggestion of sub-gauge tubes is on the right track. You might also consider ChamberMates which do the same thing, but are only as long as the chamber. Another technique is to have the chamber permanently sleeved with a steel insert.

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2004, 10:42:48 AM »

I agree with the others that I would not now use any of those smokeless recipes in an old damascus barrel, although we put quite a few heavy factory loads through an old LC Smith double with a damascus barrel during the early 60's hunting ducks. It didn't come apart, but I would not trust that to be the case now that I am a lot older. That one may have just been stronger than most and we were very lucky.

Another idea would be to load with a blackpowder substitute instead of smokeless. Never tried it, but seems like it may be a solution.

Kilgor · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2004, 01:08:54 PM »

Thanks for your warnings - I certainly appreciate your comments and definitely need to reconsider the use of my damascus barrel shotgun. But perhaps I asked the wrong question in the wrong forum!

So where might I get the necessary expert opinion to determine a reasonable course of action. I have been told (by I believe a reliable local source) that my W&C Scott & Sons is in very good shape and in his opinion safe to use as long as I stay under 6000 psi pressure. Apparently the barrels were tested and certified at 6000 psi (at the time of manufacture in the 1880's). Subsequently, in speaking with local gun shop staff, I have been told not to load with black powder for 2 reasons... 1. today's BP is not the same as the stuff of 100 years ago (more punch per ounce) and 2. the quality control of the BP is not as high as for smokeless powders and therefore more subject to variation in performance from lot to lot.

I also note that Hodgdon specifically states that their BP substitutes are not to be used for damascus barrel guns ...

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2004, 01:25:59 PM »

I have learned a many, many years ago and it has been reinforced over the decades to take anything told to my by local gun shop staff as hearsay. There are many fine damascus barrel firarms out there and they are too valuable to risk. I would feel more comfortable contacting Hodgdon or Alliant by e-mail and see if they can recommend any load recipes.

Blackpowder strength varries with manufacturer, (i.e., Swiss is hotter than Elephant) and there are also different grades for different purposes. There is also some difference in lots and in years of production. These are relatively slight and the production methods are relatively unchanged from a hundred years ago. Some of these differences result from differences in water quality and wood used for the charcoal in the process.

Perhaps the folks on the black powder cartridge forum will have much more to offer, but the muzzleloaders I have seen and used don't seem to be much effected by the current blackpowder production.

I don't use the substitutes, use Elephant, Goex and Swiss brands in my muzzlelaoders, and don't have familarity with those.

rickyp · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2004, 12:24:17 PM »

even tho someone told you the gun was safe to shoot and was proof tested to 6000 back in the 1800's that is a long time ago and was only truley good for that testing. every time you fire any gun it changes the barrel a little then take into considerations chemicals from cleaning and some rusting the barrel is no where as strong as it was when tested!!!!

I would not fire it at all and buy a new shotgun.
as for black powder quilaty, it is very tight ( to keep law suites down) a lot better then it was back in the 1800's

Tom H. · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2004, 03:52:48 PM »

The damascus gun issue has been going around on other boards in the past, and the idea that it is too dangerous to shoot is very dependant on the gun.
All a person has to do is to go to one of the "Vintager" shoots and see just how many people still shoot these things (and buy these things). When they do have a failure it seems to be caused by a barrel blocked by a wad or a too-thin tube.

The main problem with damascus guns is that if there is a flaw in the twist(slag when the twist iron/steel was made), you just can't see it. That aside, a gun with barrels in good condition can be safely fired with black powder ( I have an old Ithaca that I shoot) and some smokeless loads.

The most important part for black powder loads is the breech. The barrels near the muzzle can be paper thin, and it still wouldn't cause any damage. This condition is fairly common due to repairing dents and refiling the barrel.
The pressure curve of the black peaks in the breech and the rest of the tube just keeps the shot going in the right direction.

With smokeless the pressures peak about 8" out (right over the handguard) where the barrel is thinner.

None of the powder companies will tell you that their powders (even Black substitutes) are safe in damascus. They don't know if you are shooting something of some quality or a junker that should be a tomato stake.

I recall a test that was done with a damascus parker and modern rounds. The gun shot off the face before the barrels gave (lots of rounds).

I saw a very fine H&H in Arizona, 100+ years old and very light. It was nitro proofed and the seller told me that yes, it was safe for modern ammo. Not high velocity stuff, but standard velocity stuff operating at mid range pressures would be fine.
The gun was 3 grand, I would find the right ammo for it if I bought it.

Don't give up on that shotgun yet. A smith good with doubles should be able to give it the once over and give you piece of mind.

Good shooting
Tom

Catfish · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2004, 01:41:04 PM »

Steel deteriorates over time. It was probibly good for over 6,000 psi when new, but why would you want to take a chance on ruining a nice old gun and hurting or killg your self doing it?

?? Are you tryinr for a Darwin award?

??

Tom H. · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2004, 02:56:46 PM »

If it means thath much, I believe that it is still possible to have the gun re-proofed by the maker if they are still in business. They wouldn't do that if they thought that the gun would be a liability to shoot.

The newest thing is relining the barrels by reaming and installing a very thin liner. Also will set you back a few grand.

As far as steel degrading over time, true (guns have a shelf life of 400 years, I'm sure that this is one of the reasons the libs hate them), but how many people are shooting Springfield trapdoors from the 1870's, which are a few years older then that shotgun?

Tom

Bad Flynch · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2004, 06:49:44 PM »

I would like to comment on the matter of black powder pressures. The modern day SAAMI pressure limits were ultimately derived from the pressures encountered with black powder shotshells. In the past, it was common to shoot any damascus barreled shotgun with commercial loads. Don't be fooled by the "drams equivalent" rating, because that refers now to a velocity level equivalent and not a pressure equivalent. Even so-called light loads can have maximum pressures these days.

The real problem with damascus barrels is the age, now. Even if the old barrels were originally of high quality, aging does them no favors. Since some of them were only "damascus-patterned" barrels (a cosmetic finish), an x-ray look or magna-fluxing is in order to see if they are real damascus or not. Time was once that damascus steel was reputed to be better than solid steel, that's why they did that.

In any event, real damascus barrels were welded together by forging strips to make the pattern and consist of miles of welds--all of which can rust, crystallize, and otherwise deteriorate from simple aging.

Buy a new gun, a good one, and have fun. Put the old one on the wall and admire it--it deserves a good retirement.