Author Topic: So why no more T/C 10" BBLs in production? (Read 1219 times)

DropTheHammer · « **on:** May 24, 2004, 09:27:19 AM »

Why did T/C stop offering the 10" BBL?

jeff223 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2004, 09:29:15 AM »

good :?:

Keith L · « **Reply #2 on:** May 24, 2004, 10:13:32 AM »

I would assume that it was a business decision. Apparently they didn't sell enough of the 10 inch barrels to justify putting the resources (materials, labor, warhousing, etc) into making them. Looks to me that the Encore took much of the available capacity, and the decision was made to support that platform and the most popular Contender configurations, and let Fox Ridge support the rest.

teamnelson · « **Reply #3 on:** May 24, 2004, 01:10:54 PM »

As has been mentioned on the silhouette forum, this decision alienated a large population of TC Contender shooters. Namely, the IHMSA folks, who are restricted to 10" factory barrels. NRA made a change to allow 12" barrels because of this business decision, but IHMSA has not followed suit.

Since TC has a link to the IHMSA on their own web site, this seems like a strange decision. It sounds to me like they are targeting the hunting market, which have really bought into the Encore line. It's a shame they've abandoned one of their longtime support bases though.

Keith L · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2004, 02:09:48 PM »

Companies that survive have to have income that exceeds the cost of manufacture.

If sales to the IHMSA folks made it possible to continue to make barrels for them I guarantee they would be in the catalog. A company may keep SKUs in their line out of a sense of loyalty to a former niche, but only for so long. In business it comes down to the bottom line. Perhaps this is a question that should go to T/C. If the numbers are there maybe the barrels can be as well.

Jim M · « **Reply #5 on:** May 24, 2004, 02:12:32 PM »

I always liked the 10" barrel. The three (call me poor) contender barrels that I have are that size. I always felt that the 10" barrel was the best looking barrel when mounted on the frame. I bought my contender in the 70's before even the 14" barrels were out.

DropTheHammer · « **Reply #6 on:** May 24, 2004, 03:48:27 PM »

I guess thats why I'm asking you, the consumers. I am just starting into the madness of the contender. From my end of the game, the ten inchers are by far the most appealing as far as cosmetics and practical carrying are concerned.

I understand that the Super 14s and even 12s offer enhanced performance, but its hard to believe (IMO) that the 10 inch would not be more popular than the longer bbls.

Bullseye · « **Reply #7 on:** May 24, 2004, 05:25:35 PM »

10"ers are all I want unless it is a caliber that needs the longer barrel to shine (375 Win, 30-30, 223 etc.). I do not know why they quit making them, but wish they had not made that decision. Guess it does not upset me that much since I have all the 10" barrels I wanted (did I really say that). The last two new ones I bought, I got when I did just because they were going to quit making them.

bgjohn · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2004, 02:39:29 AM »

Quote from: Keith L

Companies that survive have to have income that exceeds the cost of manufacture.

If sales to the IHMSA folks made it possible to continue to make barrels for them I guarantee they would be in the catalog. A company may keep SKUs in their line out of a sense of loyalty to a former niche, but only for so long. In business it comes down to the bottom line. Perhaps this is a question that should go to T/C. If the numbers are there maybe the barrels can be as well.

Q. What's an SKU?
:? JM

rickyp · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2004, 11:24:22 AM »

I like both the 10 and 14 inch barrels.

For small game hunting and "normal handgun rounds" and The 14 for the "rifle rounds".
When I am hunting for small game I tend to me on the move a lot more then I am when I am after deer. The 10 inch barrels for me are a lot nice to walk around with.

IF you must have a new 10 inch barrel you will just have to buy a 12 or 14 and have it cut back and consider the cost of the work as part of buying the barrel

Keith L · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2004, 04:58:13 PM »

"What's an SKU? "

An SKU (stock keeping unit) is inventory control talk for a number assigned to a part or assembly of parts available for sale. There is expense involved with each SKU, and the more you have the more it costs.

My point is that to have models that suit everyone requires inventory and the systems to track them. Stock has to turn over fast enough to keep the cycle of product to cash short or the business has to borrow to meet obligations. In days gone by companies used excess inventory to provide collateral for a credit line to keep going. I have been in companies that have years old inventory worth nothing filling warehouses to keep a credit line active. One that comes to mind had several acres of warehouse space filled with obsolete corrugated cartons that hadn't been used for at least 15 years. This was rented space.

The alternative is to custom make each model to the specs of the buyer. companies that are flexible and responsive can keep the production time short enough to satisfy the needs of the buyer. Sounds like that is not acceptable to the sanctioning body either.

It is not uncommon to have to decide to limit the number of SKUs to fast moving goods or go out of business. I don't know if that is what T/C faced, but with loss due to the fire, and the changing business environment I can imagine hard decisions needed to be made.

Geez. I really became a wordy so and so with that. I didn't mean to make it an MBA class. Sorry...

K2 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 26, 2004, 12:04:03 PM »

Keith I think you hit the nail on the head. The TCs' are very competitive in the standing position where the emphasis is mostly on the shooter and much less on the equipment. Freestyle the TC has to go up against the excellent falling block guns such as the BF and the MOA's and they have the edge with match grade barrels and faster lock time etc It isn't a big edge but in competition any edge real or percieved makes a difference. Silhouette has been growing a bit small in recent years and all combined I don't think the 10 inch guns were not big sellers anymore.

TC's are a great mass produced gun and the switch barrel system is hard to beat for versatility. I have been after the leaders of the IHMSA to carve out a true mass production category but so far it is falling on deaf ears. With that and a reduced caliber list to have to stock for I think TC would bring back the 10 inch barrels. The .22lr match barrel, 7TCU, .357, .41 and .44 plus one or two others should cover the majority of silhouetters.

Quote from: Keith L

"What's an SKU? "

An SKU (stock keeping unit) is inventory control talk for a number assigned to a part or assembly of parts available for sale. There is expense involved with each SKU, and the more you have the more it costs.

My point is that to have models that suit everyone requires inventory and the systems to track them. Stock has to turn over fast enough to keep the cycle of product to cash short or the business has to borrow to meet obligations. In days gone by companies used excess inventory to provide collateral for a credit line to keep going. I have been in companies that have years old inventory worth nothing filling warehouses to keep a credit line active. One that comes to mind had several acres of warehouse space filled with obsolete corrugated cartons that hadn't been used for at least 15 years. This was rented space.

The alternative is to custom make each model to the specs of the buyer. companies that are flexible and responsive can keep the production time short enough to satisfy the needs of the buyer. Sounds like that is not acceptable to the sanctioning body either.

It is not uncommon to have to decide to limit the number of SKUs to fast moving goods or go out of business. I don't know if that is what T/C faced, but with loss due to the fire, and the changing business environment I can imagine hard decisions needed to be made.

Geez. I really became a wordy so and so with that. I didn't mean to make it an MBA class. Sorry...

michbob · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2004, 12:34:00 PM »

Ummmm..... T/C had a fire?

Michbob.

Keith L · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2004, 01:20:28 PM »

T/C's fire was years ago, and caused the end of many of the "traditional" black powder guns and such. I don't recall the details, but the company streamlined its offerings after that.

I consult with manufacturers for a living. I would bet that if there were truly a dollar to be made on any particular configuration T/C would be all over it. That's what we do. We may do some work at minimal or no profit for a short time to maintain a relationship with a good client, but remember it is still a business, and must make money to stay in business. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

K2 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 27, 2004, 04:56:57 AM »

I like your grasp on reality Keith!

TC's factory standard list of calibers has shrunk considerably witht he G2 contender and the Encore. The wildcats are a custom shop proposition only now, no doubt due to the inventory issues you refer to. Most manufacturers do a production run of a certain size to maximize output per man hour. Lets just say that is a 50 barrel minimum run. (I have no idea what TC's production run sizes are) If you were to make a run of .30 Herrets how long would you need to inventory them before the next herret run was needed? Even though most of us on Graybeards have wildcat or two we like, with TC only offering the .22, .22 Hornet, 357, 44 and 45 standard for the 12 inch barrels that tells me these are the calibers that sell in any volumn. With the exception of the Hornet all are normal handgun cartridges. All are rimmed configurations as well.

There is a message in all of this I think :wink:

Quote from: Keith L

T/C's fire was years ago, and caused the end of many of the "traditional" black powder guns and such. I don't recall the details, but the company streamlined its offerings after that.

I consult with manufacturers for a living. I would bet that if there were truly a dollar to be made on any particular configuration T/C would be all over it. That's what we do. We may do some work at minimal or no profit for a short time to maintain a relationship with a good client, but remember it is still a business, and must make money to stay in business. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

K2 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 27, 2004, 07:30:42 AM »

I make no distinction between TC custom shop and Fox Ridge, they are different on paper only I believe. As far as I am aware all Fox Ridge barrels come from the TC Custom Shop.

Quote from: cknight98

i wouldnt be surprised to see it get to the point where TC is only making frames and grips...and all barrels come from Fox Ridge...

its probably not much further away...alot closer than some of us think...

Kens · « **Reply #16 on:** May 27, 2004, 11:58:25 AM »

I live in NH and have been to Fox Ridge Outfitters. Fox Ridge Outfitters is the store on the grounds of the TC factory. As far as I can tell TC just wanted to have a retail store with more to select from than just TC products. Fox Ridge also sells knives, tents, and all kinds of outdoor stuff.

Jim Stacy · « **Reply #17 on:** May 28, 2004, 07:36:20 AM »

Maybe they get their blanks 36" long and after they cut the 24" Encore barrel the 12" TC blank is already cut :wink:

K2 · « **Reply #18 on:** May 28, 2004, 08:33:43 AM »

Interesting theory, however they could get 2-6 inch barrels out of what is leaft over with an additional cut. There is not much demand for a 6 inch TC. I think demand is the driver on the 10 inch barrels going extinct.

Quote from: Jim Stacy

Maybe they get their blanks 36" long and after they cut the 24" Encore barrel the 12" TC blank is already cut :wink:

Ladobe · « **Reply #19 on:** May 28, 2004, 10:27:43 AM »

Quote from: akihmsa

Interesting theory, however they could get 2-6 inch barrels out of what is leaft over with an additional cut. There is not much demand for a 6 inch TC. I think demand is the driver on the 10 inch barrels going extinct.

Lack of demand is why they dropped all the IHMSA PC 10" barrels? Between IHMSA and the large percentage of hunters who prefer the 10", I doubt that highly - and there is a shortage of top condition used ones now days for the production classes at least. More like their plan was to eliminate the Contender completely to force sales of the "politically correct" Encore. Remember how hard they tried NOT to bring out the G2 until public pressure finally forced them to? Any 10" G2 barrels being offered? Any for the Encore being offered? Sorry, but a very long behind-the-scenes talk with Tim and especially Ken while at the 2000 SHOT Show clued me in they were changing their game plan big time - had been since the fire when they lost too much tooling that they didn't want to spend the bucks to replace. Their BP line is their bread and butter now days, but BL - TC wants to be the next SR&C and the 22 Classic (proto's at that same show) was their first step to that end. BTW, I also got to handle a POS G2 proto at that show under the table - and they finally came out when? All just my opinion, but I was there and heard the tale from the horses mouth (or was it both ends?).

Keith L · « **Reply #20 on:** May 28, 2004, 02:34:17 PM »

If demand is there then TC would have to be run by morons to not take advantage of the market. What are the numbers of those who want 10 inch barrels and will not be just as happy with 12. If it is a few hundred then not worth the trouble. A few thousand, well, it is starting to get interesting. More than ten thousand well, then there may be a good reason to jump in.

K2 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 02, 2004, 12:19:33 PM »

Hi Ladobe

I don't know the numbers on the Hunters with single shots that prefer the 10 inch guns to the longer ones. I do know however that the IHMSA silhouette market has been dry for several years. Teh number of members that actually compete anymore is less than 1000 and those are established shooters for the most part that are not buying new TC equipment.

The top guns of the AAA and INT shooters are the BF's and MOA's. The TC's don't win often against these two falling block guns with all the custom touches they offer. I don't blame TC for not wanting to stay in a "Production" market where Custom guns are allowed.

Certainly TC has brought out the .22 auto rifle with the ruger 10/22 in mind.

For Silhouette to be a big market again it needs to go back to its mass market roots when Rugers and TC's and other over the counter guns were the guns of choice. Now that FA wins all the revolver competitions the rugers are all but gone . As the equipment costs to win went up the number of participants went down. That was pretty predictable.

Quote from: Ladobe

Quote from: akihmsa
Interesting theory, however they could get 2-6 inch barrels out of what is leaft over with an additional cut. There is not much demand for a 6 inch TC. I think demand is the driver on the 10 inch barrels going extinct.

Lack of demand is why they dropped all the IHMSA PC 10" barrels? Between IHMSA and the large percentage of hunters who prefer the 10", I doubt that highly - and there is a shortage of top condition used ones now days for the production classes at least. More like their plan was to eliminate the Contender completely to force sales of the "politically correct" Encore. Remember how hard they tried NOT to bring out the G2 until public pressure finally forced them to? Any 10" G2 barrels being offered? Any for the Encore being offered? Sorry, but a very long behind-the-scenes talk with Tim and especially Ken while at the 2000 SHOT Show clued me in they were changing their game plan big time - had been since the fire when they lost too much tooling that they didn't want to spend the bucks to replace. Their BP line is their bread and butter now days, but BL - TC wants to be the next SR&C and the 22 Classic (proto's at that same show) was their first step to that end. BTW, I also got to handle a POS G2 proto at that show under the table - and they finally came out when? All just my opinion, but I was there and heard the tale from the horses mouth (or was it both ends?).

kirkwhitaker · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2004, 01:22:37 AM »

if you want a 10"....you could just call the custom shop and have them make you one...doesn't the ihmsa allow tc custom shop barrels in calibers that were once factory standard to be considered production..ie 7tcu...
kirk