Milsurp 150 grainers and Lee Collet die

[JPH45]

Have been starting to take my 30-30 Handi through it's paces, was playing with cast bullets, but the groups were great, then horrible, typical. A suggestion from another forum was that I shoot a good bit of jacketed through it to take the roughness out of the barrel. The writer made it clear in no uncertain terms that his barrel (a non NEF) had taken about 500 rounds of jacketed ball before it began to behave well with cast,......OK, I can take a hint............(also is the question of bullet performance, I can easily drive 150 grainers to 2350 fps, good jacketed performance velocity and better range than I can get with cast, Hmmmmmmmmmm)

Began looking at prices, yes I know, I'm  a COB, and the obvious place to start is with milsurp ball.  At prices of $55-$70 per 1000, they are cheap shooting indeed, half the price of their commercial counterparts.

Vance was kind and sent me a sample of 150's. The bullet is a flat base spire point, with a cannalure abut 1/4" above the base. It is in the wrong place for my chamber, I have to seat the bullet at just about the point the ojive begins, a length of 2.710". I am also using a surplus ball powder, reccomended data is BL-C2. I am using 33.2 grains of it under 150 grain bullets. (the following loads were shot at 50 yards, I've not yet moved my bench back from shooting 50 yard targets for the match)

This load actually shoots pretty good. the first ten shots went into a group that is 1 13/16" tall and 1 9/16" wide. Take out the two sidest flyers and 8 shots make a group 1 1/8" tall and 3/4" wde. Not bad at all.

Went and resized the cases using Lee Collet die, and low and behold the necks have now been fired amd resized enough times that the necks were getting hard and not gripping a bullet. I could seat a bullet, and easily push it deeper in the neck with finger pressure. Well, I was careful and made sure the bullets didn't move, fired the 10 cases again and got a group  that is 2" tall and 1 9/16" wide. throw out 1 flyer and nine shots go into a group 1 3/8" tall and 1 9/16" wide. Again not bad. Not bad at all for a bullet that has previously been loaded, then pulled and even possibly resized. To me, a perfect combination for plinking, trigger time, and taking the rough spots out of a bore.

Well, after my bench time, I took the ten cases and annealed the neck. I lit my propane tourch, grabbed a case at the base with pliers, heated the neck an even red, (both in color and all around the neck) then stuck it in water to quench. Next I went back to my press, put in the Lee Collet Die and resized the cases, now the neck tension is nice and tight, I can start a bullet, but that is all. So tomorrow, I will load some up and try again, this time I will be able to speak on some of the difference neck tension makes.

as a side note, I did notice that there is a slight difference in diameter between the milsurps and Sierras 150 SPT.  Before annealing, I was not able to start the Sierra bullet my hand, I have not taken a micrometer to the bullets yet, but I suspect .0005" could make that much difference.

So far I like what I see, Thanks for the sample Vance. Guess I gotta make an order with gibrass again. Jeff B. must really like us.

[Fred M]

JPH45
On my 300 Win Mag collet die I had to polish off 1.5 thou to get a good bite on the bullet.  Spin the stem on an electric drill and use some fine emery cloth or sand paper goes fast.

Perhaps you could substitute the word annealing for stress relieving a red hot neck is really too hot and the brass gets to soft. 650F is perfect.(Molten lead). The toch is ok as long as you get only a hint of red.

Since you have a lead pot you could use it dip the bullets into the molten lead with your bare hands holding the case when the case get too hot to hold you drop it on a soft surface. Don't use water for cooling. It only take a few seconds for each and your done.

I polished the 25-06 with #800 grit compound, wrap a cotton patch around a bronze cleaning brush and give it 75-100 strokes. Cast a 309 slug grease it good and push it through the bore you will feel any rough spots. Check progress  now and then. Should not take too long to get a pretty smooth bore. You only want to polish not to remove any metal particular if you have these 2 thou grooves. First time I ever saw grooves that shallow.

I think shootig 500 bullets to get a smooth barrel is over doing it a bit.
Not to mention cost.
Fred M.

[Ditchdigger]

JPH you will have a few more to play with in a couple of days. Sent them priorty mail,and insured.   Ditchdigger

[Leftoverdj]

Red is way too hot. In a semi dark room, you can see a color line move down the neck as you heat the case. I hold the case head in bare fingers and rotate in a medium torch flame until the line moves over the shoulder and then drop into a bucket of water. By using bare fingers, I assure that I will never overheat the critical base. If the torch flame is right, the neck and shoulder are annealed before the base gets past warm.

[JPH45]

Obviously I have a lot more to lern about annealing brass. I took my que from an articel I had read sometime back in which the cases are put into a pan of water, the necks are heated red using a propane torch and then tipped over to quench. I couldn't see a lot of difference in that and what I did. Apparently I need to try a different technique.

I had bought a full length resizing die to over come somewhat the problems tht can be encountered witht he Lee Collet die, I simply didn't want to have to deal with lubing and delubing the cases. As well, I have found that is generally only a one time cure for brass that is getting stiff. It can be full length resized, fired and run once through the collet die and one is back again to a neck that doesn't have quite enough tension.

I have considered turning down this mandrell, but it is perfect for cast bullets of .311. Perhaps I should just spend $5.00 with Lee and get a second mandrell......

[Mitch in MI]

Have you considered crimping the bullets in the necks? It seems like a collet die and factory crimp die might go well together.

Mitch

[JPH45]

It sounds good, but there is a limit to the number of times that brass can be sized and resized as with each reforming the brass in the area of movement becomes a bit more brittle. It is like aluminum that way. The idea of annealing is to stress relieve (Fred M is correct on this point)) the work hardened brass and return it to a soft state. I am sure there is a limit to the number of times brass can be manipultated this way as well.

The bright side is that excepting losses due to my resetting the crimp on the seating die and crushig a shoulder her and there, I have fired this brass at least 20 times a case, half that with full power loadings. This has been as you suggest using the combination of both the collet die and the full length resizing die.

A point of interest to some may be that it generally takes about four foull power loadings using only the collet die before I begin to experience a articular case sticking. This will be after having run it through the full length resizer because the brass had begun to have a few sticky cases. One inference to draw from this is that even with the low pressure 30-30 case. the Handi has an inherently weak ejector that was designed for ejecting shot gun hulls.