444 marlin or 45-70

[dave hall]

I'M LOOKING TO GET A MARLIN LEVER IN 444 OR 45-70. WHICH ONE WOULD YOU PICK,AND IF YOU WANT TO TELL ME WHY YOU WOULD PICK IT. THANKS.









STRICTLY BIG BORE. STRICTLY BUSINESS. :biggun:

[leverfan]

As a reloader, I prefer the 444.  It used to be that you had to reload to get your money's worth out the 444, but lots of companies have started to market loads that outperform the old Remington 240 grain load by a country mile.  I see by your "strictly big bore, strictly business" quote that you already know about Buffalo Bore Ammo, and they make some of the best factory ammo for the 444, along with Hornady and Georgia Arms.  

I can also load it light, with 200 grain bullets, and let my kid shoot it without any discomfort.  I guess a person could cast .457 round balls for the 45-70 and make up some fun little gallery loads, though.  The 444 comes within a whisker of the 45-70 for performance in the field, but recoil with full-power loads is measurably less in the 444.

That being said, there's nothing at all wrong with the 45-70.  Lots of factory ammo out there, although much of it is loaded to low pressure to avoid blowing up old guns.  Buffalo Bore and Garret, among others, make some very fine loads for non-handloaders that want to get maximum performance out of their Marlins, Rugers, and converted bolt guns.

I guess the logical answer, if you're a gun guy, is to get both.  Maybe get a Marlin 444 lever gun (not chopped and ported, please), and then get a Ruger #1 in 45-70.  The 444 is easier to shoot well, though, and it can tackle anything in North America, properly loaded.

[NYH1]

I went with the 444 Marlin. I'll use this rifle for wild boar and black bear hunting. In "most cases" the 444 Mar. has more energy (power) then the 45-70 when using factory ammo. If I were to hunt elk or moose especially in "GRIZZ" country I would use a 45-70 and hand load it real hot. It all depends on what your gonna use it for. :-)

[dave hall]

thanks lever fan,and N.Y.hunter
I have had a #1-S 45-70,but I haven't had eather in a lever. I've never heard of georgia arms. No I would never chop the barrel or have that load porting.CORBON also has powerful rounds for both.I'm going to use the lever on PA whitetail,and black bear in the swamp,and in small fields. :wink:

[Triple4]

I went with the 444 Marlin. I'll use this rifle for wild boar and black bear hunting. In "most cases" the 444 Mar. has more energy (power) then the 45-70 when using factory ammo. If I were to hunt elk or moose especially in "GRIZZ" country I would use a 45-70 and hand load it real hot. It all depends on what your gonna use it for. :-)

In "most cases" the 444 Mar. has more energy (power) then the 45-70 when using factory ammo

This is not true, you can't buy ammo that is hotter for a 444 then for a 45-70........................Remember there are Trapdoor rounds out there that are less then the 444, but cor-bon and garrett both load rounds that are hotter then any 444 factory round for Modern 45-70 rifles.......................
with that said "IF" you handload and are using big LBT style Hardcast bullets then you can load the 444 to almost the same level of performance as the 45-70.......................Always a 45-70 will throw a bigger bullet...............Always a 45-70 will shoot a big Jacketed bullet faster then a 444....................Always a 45-70 will look better on paper.

The one thing that is still debatable is Penetration of the 444 vs the 45-70
in most of my tests the 444 out-penetrates the 45-70 with simular construced bullets...............to me it boils down to the 45-70 having more recoil and using more powder to get the same results as the 444 with less of both........................If you do your research you will find that a 44Mag
pistol shooting good Hardcast bullets will not be that far behind a 45-70 in penetration tests and a 444 can launch those same bullets much faster.

[Mikey]

dave:  I've been a 444 fan for better than 30 years.  I don't feel the 444 takes a back seat to the 45-70 and is even a better round if you are a reloader.  You can load any 44 caliber bullet into the 444 but you cannot do the same with the 45-70.  You can toss a 180 gn 'varmit' load out of the 444 at almost 3k'/sec, and 300 gn jacketed or cast at 2200'/sec.  To accomplish the later with a 45-70, you  have to have the right rifle and the right loads and you pay for it on the recoil end.  

An interesting comparison is made between the 405 Winchester, the 444 and the 45-70 all throwing a 300 gn bullet at 2200'/sec - which penetrates more or which penetrates farther?  With all bullets of the same construction, design and at the same velocity, the narrower bore bullet will have greater penetration.  That being said, Cor-Bon advertises that its 300 gn loads for the 444 have taken all the African big five, so it should certainly 'do' for anything on the North American continent.  

I have 3 444s, one with a 26" bbl, one with a 20" bbl and one with an 18.5" bbl and would not feel 'undergunned' in any hunting situation.  I'd go 444.  HTH.  Mikey.

[RIFLERANGER]

I have a 45-70 and a 450Marlin in Marlin leverguns.
I would also like to have a 444.
Any of these would do the trick on anything on the planet.
Find the one that calls your name and give it a good home.
Ranger

[dawei]

I went with the 444 Marlin. I'll use this rifle for wild boar and black bear hunting. In "most cases" the 444 Mar. has more energy (power) then the 45-70 when using factory ammo. If I were to hunt elk or moose especially in "GRIZZ" country I would use a 45-70 and hand load it real hot. It all depends on what your gonna use it for. :-)

I hunt Deer & Elk in "GRIZZ" country & I use the 444. With 300gr Bullets it will kill ANYTHING that breathes oxygen. As I am older (54); I am FAR LESS TOLERANT OF RECOIL; I'm not a wimp, rather, it's just the progression of time (age). Hell! I Turkey hunt with a 20GA.

BTW; we have bigger deer than your MONSTER WHITETAILS (I was born in Syracuse). Those deer are known locally as Roosevelt Elk.

Regards...........

[dawei]

dave:  I've been a 444 fan for better than 30 years.  SUPER LARGE SNIP..................

I have 3 444s, one with a 26" bbl, one with a 20" bbl and one with an 18.5" bbl and would not feel 'undergunned' in any hunting situation.  I'd go 444.  HTH.  Mikey.

The original Marlin 444 had a 24" Barrel; after a couple of years it was shortened to 22". Much later it was shortened again (OUTFITTER) to 18½". What gun do you have with a 26" Barrel?

[NYH1]

In "most cases" the 444 Mar. has more energy (power) then the 45-70 when using factory ammo

This is not true, you can't buy ammo that is hotter for a 444 then for a 45-70........................Remember there are Trapdoor rounds out there that are less then the 444, but cor-bon and garrett both load rounds that are hotter then any 444 factory round for Modern 45-70 rifles.................

Your right I should have more specific, I meant "factory ammo" from the bigger brands like Winchester, Remington or Federal.

[NYH1]

I went with the 444 Marlin. I'll use this rifle for wild boar and black bear hunting. In "most cases" the 444 Mar. has more energy (power) then the 45-70 when using factory ammo. If I were to hunt elk or moose especially in "GRIZZ" country I would use a 45-70 and hand load it real hot. It all depends on what your gonna use it for. :-)

I hunt Deer & Elk in "GRIZZ" country & I use the 444. With 300gr Bullets it will kill ANYTHING that breathes oxygen.

You can use a 22 short or a sling shot if you want. I was just telling "dave hall" what I would use, thats all!

BTW; we have bigger deer than your MONSTER WHITETAILS (I was born in Syracuse). Those deer are known locally as Roosevelt Elk.

Are they deer or elk :?:

[Mikey]

dawei:  Ooopps, par'n me Captain....  I had one of those original marlins and sold it - had I known better I would now have 4 triple 4 levers.  Yes, that one had the 24" bbl.  The 3 I have now are all Winchester Big Bores.  The Timber Carbine (actually, it's a thunder carbine with those ports) carries a 18.5" 1:12 twist 12 groove bbl; a black showdow converted to a traditional rifle carries a 20" 1:38 twist 12 groove bbl and a tradional rifle that I sent to the Montana rifleman for rebarrel carries the 26" 1:26 twist 6 groove bbl.  

All carry open sights; the long barrel carries a Lyman #2 Tang Sight, and they all shoot bettter than I do.  HTH.  Mikey.

Now, I'm at home using a new Dell home station that I purchased along with a new Kodak digital camera just so I could post pictures - all I have to do is learn how to take pictures (LOL).  Mikey.

[dawei]

="New York Hunter

BTW; we have bigger deer than your MONSTER WHITETAILS (I was born in Syracuse). Those deer are known locally as Roosevelt Elk.

Are they deer or elk :?:

I was pullin your leg as New York has no elk hunting that I know of. For what it's worth your deer hunting far surpasses what we have here.

[NYH1]

dawei, your right we don't have any elk hunting or elk for that matter in New York State. Pennsylvaia has a limeted elk hunting season. They have a "lottery system" for their tag drawings I think. I think they give out 50 or 100 tags a year. The guy's and gal's from the "Keystone" will know a lot more about this then me. :grin:  

Roosevelt Elk you silly guy you! :toast:

[dawei]

dawei:  Ooopps, par'n me Captain....  I had one of those original marlins and sold it - had I known better I would now have 4 triple 4 levers.  Yes, that one had the 24" bbl.  The 3 I have now are all Winchester Big Bores.  The Timber Carbine (actually, it's a thunder carbine with those ports) carries a 18.5" 1:12 twist 12 groove bbl; a black showdow converted to a traditional rifle carries a 20" 1:38 twist 12 groove bbl and a tradional rifle that I sent to the Montana rifleman for rebarrel carries the 26" 1:26 twist 6 groove bbl.  

All carry open sights; the long barrel carries a Lyman #2 Tang Sight, and they all shoot bettter than I do.  HTH.  Mikey.

Now, I'm at home using a new Dell home station that I purchased along with a new Kodak digital camera just so I could post pictures - all I have to do is learn how to take pictures (LOL).  Mikey.

That's a hell of a fast twist for such a large caliber; :eek:  must feel like a GyroScope when you touch one off.

[Coyote Hunter]

FWIW...

.444, .45-70 and 450Marlin comparison - updated 12/26/2003.

Here's a short compendium of information on loads and factory ammo for the 444, 450M and .45-70 (Marlin).

First, here are the fastest loads I could find with a short search, factory and handloaded:

.444Marlin
200g @ 2730fps, 3311fpe (Accurate Arms, 41,300CUP)
240g @ 2499fps, 3329fpe (Hodgdon, 42,100 CUP)
250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Nosler Partition $27.78 (Conley)
265g @ 2200fps, 2849fpe, JFP (Conley)
265g @ 2273fps, 3041fpe (Hodgdon, 41,100 CUP)
265g @ 2335fps, 3209fpe (Hornady @ Cabelas)
280g @ 2200fps, 3009fpe (Corbon)
300g @ 2082fps, 2888fpe (Hodgdon, 42,500 CUP)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, JSP $22.75 (Conley)
300g @ 2150fps, 3078fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo)
300g @ 2152fps, 3086fpe (Hodgdon #26)
300g @ 2211fps, 3257fpe (Speer #13)
305g @ 2100fps, 2988fpe (Corbon)

450Marlin
250g @ 2509fps, 3495fpe (Hodgdon, 42,200 PSI)
300g @ 2321fps, 3589fpe (Hodgdon, 42,200 PSI)
350g @ 2196fps, 3749fpe (Hodgdon, 42,300 PSI)
350g @ 2100fps, 3428fpe (Hornady Factory)
400g @ 2023fps, 3636fpe (Hodgdon, 41,900 PSI)

.45-70
250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, HP (Conley)

300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Nosler Partition (Protected Point) (Conley)
300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
300g @ 2424fps, 3915fpe (Hodgdon, 40,00 CUP)
325g @ 1950fps, 2745fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
350g @ 1970fps, 3017fpe, JFP  (Hornady) (Conley)
350g @ 2191fps, 3732fpe (Hodgdon, 39,300 CUP)
400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Barnes Original  Flat Point (Conley)
400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Swift A-Frame Flat Point (Conley)
400g @ 2002fps, 3561fpe (Hodgdon, 39,400 CUP)
405g @ 1900fps, 3247fpe, JSP (Conley)
430g @ 1925fps, 3539fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo)
500g @ 1625fps, 2532fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo)
540g @ 1550fps, 2880fpe (Garrett)


Second, factory ammo and costs:

.444Marlin
$37.93 200g @ 2320fps, 2391fpe, Barnes XPB @ Conley
$37.93 225g @ 2200fps, 2365fpe, Barnes XPB @ Conley
$19.99 240g @ 2350fps, 2942fpe (Remington @ Cabelas)
$27.78 250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Nosler Partition (Conley)
$24.99 265g @ 2335fps, 3209fpe (Hornady @ Cabelas)
$22.62 265g @ 2200fps, 2849fpe, JFP (Conley)
$17.00 270g @ 2200fps, 2902fpe Speer Gold Dot @ Georgia Arms
$39.99 270g @ 2250fps, 3034fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$36.32 280g @ 2200fps, 3009fpe (Corbon)
$17.00 300g @ 2000fps, 2665fpe Speer Gold Dot @ Georgia Arms
$39.99 300g @ 2020fps, 2719fps, Swift A-Frame @ Conley
$22.75 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, JSP (Conley)
$39.99 300g @ 2150fps, 3078fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$37.11 305g @ 2100fps, 2988fpe (Corbon)
$39.99 335g @ 2025fps, 3049fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)


450Marlin
$20.21 350g @ 2100fps, 3428fpe (Hornady @ Midsouth)

.45-70
$41.54 250g @ 2200fps, 2687fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$??.?? 300g @ 1810fps, 2182fpe (Remington @ Remington web site)
$20.39 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester JHP, Natchez)
$20.60 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Federal, Natchez)
$29.81 300g @ 1880fps, 2355fpe (Winchester Partition Gold, Natchez)


$22.84 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, HP (Conley)
$44.66 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes Original Flat Point (Conley)
$32.50 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Nosler Partition (Protected Point) (Conley)
$41.54 300g @ 2100fps, 2938fpe, Barnes X Flat Nose (Conley)
$25.08 350g @ 1970fps, 3017fpe, Hornady JFP (Conley)
$34.89 350g @ 1800fps, 2519fpe, BCSP (Corbon @ Corbon web site)

$19.47 350g @ 2025fps, 3188fpe, PMC @CheaperThanDirt.com)
$39.99 350g @ 2150fps, 3593fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$24.99 400g @ 1250fps, 1388fpe (Black Hills @ Cabelas)
$44.66 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Barnes Original  Flat Point (Conley)
$54.46 400g @ 1900fps, 3207fpe, Swift A-Frame Flat Point (Conley)
$12.99 405g @ 1350fps, 1639fpe (PMC @ Cabelas)
$18.99 405g @ 1100fps, 1088fpe (Ultramax @ Cabelas)
$22.50 405g @ 1325fps, 1579fpe, RNFP (Conley)
$18.99 405g @ 1330fps, 1590fpe (Remington @ Cabelas)
$24.50 405g @ (Winchester @ Cascade Ammunition web site)
$35.57 405g @ 1700fps, 2600fpe, FPPE (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$22.99 405g @ 1900fps, 3247fpe, JSP  (Conley)
$39.99 405g @ 2000fps, 3597fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$41.99 405g @ (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$50.00 420g @ 1850fps, 3200fpe (Garrett)
$39.99 430g @ 1925fps, 3537fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$34.50 460g @ 1650fps, 2780fpe, HC (Corbon @ Corbon web site)
$41.99 500g @ (Obsolete Ammunition @ Cabelas)
$52.99 500g @ 1625fps, 2931fpe (Buffalo Bore Ammo @ Cabelas)
$50.00 540g @ 1550fps, 2880fpe (Garrett)
$180.00 500g @ 1530fps, 2600fpe (Speer AGS Tungsten, Garrett)



Third, following are some of my loads with chronographed velocities. The rifle used is a 2000 Marlin 1895 .45-70 with 22" barrel and Ballard-cut rifling:
All loads used Starline brass, full-length sized, trimmed to 2.095" and CCI 200 primers.

Laser-Cast 300g BBFP, 13.5g HS-6, COL 2.505", 1167fps, 7fps S.D., 2 holes at 50 yards (5 shots)
Speer 300g JHP, 57.0g H4198, COL 2.53", 2399fps, 29.8fps S.D., no target data (4 shots)
Barnes 300g X, 48.0g H4198, COL 2.51", 2061fps, 5.7fps S.D., 1.63" at 50 yards (2 shots)
Bonus Bullets 305g FNGC, 53.5g Reloder 7, COL 2.55", 2094fps, 10.6fps S.D., 4.35" overall, 3 of 4 in 2.6" at 50 yards (4 shots)
Speer 350g JSP, 59.5g Varget, COL 2.593", 1836fps, 11.5fps S.D., 2.55" overall, 3 of 4 in 1 cloverleaf at 50 yards (4 shots)
Hornady 350g FN, 50.5g Reloder 7, COL 2.54", 2069fps, 9.8fps S.D., 2.15" overall, 3 of 4 in 1.3" at 50 yards (4 shots)
North Fork 350g Bonded FN, 51.0g H4198, COL 2.56", 2181fps, 5.0fps S.D., 1.2" group at 50 yards (5 shots)
Remington 405g JSP, 50.0g Reloder 7, COL 2.600", 1901fps, 3.4fps S.D., 5.45" overall, 3 of 4 in 2.60" at 100 yards (4 shots)
Remington 405g JSP, 48.8g H4198, COL 2.600", 1982fps, 10.9fps S.D., 4.30" overall, 5 of 6 in 2.30" at 50 yards (6 shots)
Cast Performance 460g WFNGC, 49.3g Benchmark, COL 2.526", 1812fps, 6.5fps S.D., 1.9" overall, 5 shots in 3 holes at 50 yards (5 shots)

[The Bonz]

I own an 1895SS (45/70 obviously) and handload for it.  From a practical point of view, the 444 would be "better" with the 300 grain bullets at similar velocities beacuse of the sectional density.  I do not know, however, is there a 400 gr bullet available for the 444 that can be driven around 1900 fps?  I do not know of anything for the 444 and we all know that the 400 gr bullet at that velocity is real out of a 45/70.  I know of no bullet for the 444 that is 500 gr, and the 45/70 can sling those out at decent velocity.  The 45/70 has a lot of historical charm as well.  If I were stuck with 300 gr bullets and no choice, the 444 would have an edge.  But as we are so lucky, we have 400 gr bullets and therefore I will not be trading my 45/70 nor looking to purchase a 444.  Good luck to all who own either type of rifle!  It ain't the gun, it's the man.
Bonz

[Camp Cook]

I totally agree with The Bonz..... Where the 444 stops is where the 45-70 is only just begining! I use my Marlin 1895GS with loads from 300gr to 550gr but mostly with Speer 400gr bullets @ 1900fps or Cast Performance 430gr. WFNGC's @ 1860fps.
Cam

[TennesseeNuc]

What happened to the lase five posts? :?

[Mikey]

Fellas:  in order to get the fatter bullet (.458) to penetrate as effectively as the slimmer bullet (.430), you have to move it faster.  

It doesn't matter how fast you move either your 300 gn 444 or 300 gn 45-70, the truth is that you do not need to move them at faster than light speeds to get them to penetrate and perfrom effectively on game.

While the 444 was limited by bullet choice, for a while, this is no longer so.  There are a sufficient variety of hard cast slugs for the 444 that when loaded properly make that caliber a game killer beyond all expectations.  Each performs equitably and one does not effectively out perform the other.  

Those who perfer the 444 should shoot the 444.  Those who perfer the 45-70 should shoot the 45-70.  Trying to compare the two is not as effective as shooting either caliber and enjoying yourself at the range in the process.  Just another 2 cents worht here.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

I would have to go with the 45-70. I am a big fan of the 444 Marlin, but the 45-70 has a better choice of bullets and you can shoot bigger pills at the game. JMHO

[Buckeye]

For some reason the above replys aren't coming thru,but hope mine does the 444 is a great cartridge,i feel its not as powerful as the 45/70,BUT they will do the same job,and no deer ,blackbear, brownie or elk will know the differance !  The 444 is a ballistic twin to the great  405 winchester loin medicine round!!

Buckeye