Author Topic: accuracy woes (Read 1430 times)

hvacman · « **on:** May 31, 2004, 11:58:57 AM »

Has anyone had any luck getting H&R to work on a rifle under warranty that shot as well as their specs but not very well for it's purpose. I have a .223 superlight that on a good day [which is rare] will shoot a few inch and a half groups. Groups usually run 2 inches. The groups are spread out not like 4 shots close with a flyer. The factory tells me if it will shoot 2 and 1/2 inches it's good but I bought this rifle for shooting coyotes out to 200 yds. and it's not good enough for that. I am wondering if they might work on it or if I'm stuck with it the way it is. I don't want to pay for another barrel. I've tried winchester and umc ammo pluss 4 different bullets with 2 different powders in handloads. I've tried the o ring and I've tried movind the rest to different positions under the forearm. I will say the gun is consistent, crappy but consistent

safetysheriff · « **Reply #1 on:** May 31, 2004, 12:31:30 PM »

hvac'

we've covered this topic a lot.....perhaps most of it on the old NEF site, but a 'search' for accuracy might help. here's some ideas, too.

make sure the scope, rings and base are all tight. i use loctite on all screws, even removing the base and loc-titing it before shooting a new rifle.

make sure the barrel is Very Clean, and Very Dry. a dirty or wet barrel will cost you accuracy. a bronze brush is one of your best friends....

shoot off a rest that is smooth and with a low-friction surface when at the bench. do not shoot off of leather or suede -- unless you cover it with something smooth like denim. the forearm must smoothly ride on its rest, the same way, every time.

rest the rifle's forearm just ahead of its back end on the denim....for every shot. just ahead of the frame is where the rifle will be sitting on the rest... the recoil pad must be in the crotch of your chest/shoulder junction held reasonably firmly in place. some guys hold the recoil pad against their bicep for some reason.....which is improper. (yes, i have formerly done it, too)

control your breathing....holding your breath half in / half out when you are pulling the trigger.....which incidentally can be a big problem on these NEF's. you've got to get a good trigger pull if you want success with a firearm.

some guys work on the sear and trigger; but i just drop out the trigger group and bend the tang of the hammer spring where it rests on the lower, inner edge of the frame to lighten the pressure on the hammer. don't bend it too much, because a little is sufficient for a Good pull. my longest/best shot was recently laser ranged (we got the range-finder working this Spring) at 185 yds' which had taken a ground hog in the neck with a .223 NEF last year.

i get in my best shooting when i stay away from caffeine and asthma inhalers.....they hop me up too much! :shock:

Ask God's blessings on all your efforts. Proverbs says, somewhere, that the blessing of the Lord exceeds all effort!

i leave it to you to find it because the search through Proverbs will be well-worth your time. :wink:

take care.

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 31, 2004, 12:35:38 PM »

:agree: What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2004, 02:08:44 PM »

Shoot it hard. I dunno if it's me or the guns, but the more I shoot them, the better groups I get. There can be a big improvement between the way these guns shoot new and the way they shoot after a few hundred rounds.

With that Ultralite barrel you are gonna be careful not to overheat it.

JPH45 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 31, 2004, 03:42:46 PM »

Quote from: Leftoverdj

Shoot it hard. I dunno if it's me or the guns, but the more I shoot them, the better groups I get.

In shooting 4 of these over the last 18 months, I can only agree with what DJ has said. My 45-70 shows very rough tooling marks in the grooves. So while it shoots well, I expect it to get better with time, and that has been the story of my 357 Max and 44 Mag. It was not untill I had shot them at least 500 rounds or so that I began to get nice groups consistantly. I have a 30-30 that I began working with in a serious way last month and am at present shooting nothing but jacketed ammo at full pressure/velocity. I shoot 5 rounds with about 15-20 seconds between shots and let the barrel cool down, then do the same again. I fire about 40 rounds whenever I shoot the gun.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** May 31, 2004, 04:34:00 PM »

hvacman, I hate to bring this up but if I remember correctly the general feeling I got from earlier conversations re H&R/NEF .223's with the superlight barrels was that they generally did not deliver the accuracy of either the standard or bull barreled versions. I have a bull barreled version that has shot great ever since I bought it used from another poster (on the old board) and know of those with standard barrelled versions that are getting great accuracy. I hope I am misinformed or remembering this wrong but it seems to me no one here has been able to get good accuracy out of the superlight barrelled .223. My recollection may be in error but it may be correct and make you unhappy but it may also save you some frustration ...<><.... :cry:(if you continue to have accuracy problems with the superlight barrel perhaps NEF would replace it with a standard barrel for you? The standard barrel is not much heavier than the superlight but is proven to be capable of excellent accuracy, NEF has been VERY accommodating thru customer service, good luck.)

hvacman · « **Reply #6 on:** May 31, 2004, 05:07:26 PM »

thanks for the info MSP Ret,I hadn't heard that the superlight wasn't as accurate as the standard barrel. I am giong to call H&R tomorrow about the gun. It is getting frustrating.

James B · « **Reply #7 on:** May 31, 2004, 05:28:42 PM »

My 223 shot all loads into 3/4 inch or less from the first round I fired. It liked the 45 grain Ballistic tips best. My 45-70 could not shoot much better. Same with the 44 Mag. My 280 shoots 1 1/2 inch and is getting better. What can I say? I love the things. :grin:

MSP Ret · « **Reply #8 on:** June 01, 2004, 02:17:04 AM »

JamesB, Congratulations, it sounds as if you have some great shooting guns there. Is your .223 the bull barrelled version, the standard barrelled Handi or does it have the superlight barrel?....<><.... :grin:

jeff223 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 01, 2004, 06:18:58 AM »

if you are not getting good accuracy and you have tried several kinds of ammo and you know for a fact everything is tight and your scope is holding zero then have your crown looked at by a smith.if you dont have a good crown on your barrel your rifle will never shoot any better.also check into barrel lapping if you talk to a gun smith.lapping is a simple job but it takes time.your smith may give you some lapping compound and and have you do it.this lapping smooths out the lands and groves in your barrel and slows down on the copper copper fouling.do the crown first then maybe do the lapping

scruffy · « **Reply #10 on:** June 01, 2004, 06:57:24 AM »

Lightweight barrels are a pain to shoot at the range. To check it's hunting "accuracy" your grouping method may not be the best judge of the rifles hunting accuracy. Put up a target and fire a round with the barrel cold. Record where it hits from the bulls eye. Then let the rifle sit a long time till it's cold again. Not warm, it needs to be cold. Fire it again and record where you hit from the bulls eye. Repeat the a few times. You'll hopefully and probably find that your shots from a cold barrel are very close to the bulls eye and consistent. You might also find that your cold POI is different from your warm POI. This can be true of any barrel, ultralight though bull, but it's more common with ultralight barrels.

Also, if the rifle is for coyote hunting at 200 yards, put a big coffee can out at 200 yards and see if you can shoot it from a hunting position. And if you can do it with the first shot, and then your second shot, that's what really matters for this coyote rifle. Not what the rifle will group with a warm barrel at the range, but how consistantly it shoots the first and second shot from a cold barrel from a hunting position. The ultralight barrels I have only gets 2 or 3 shots fired through them at the range. Just enough to verify the scope hasn't moved. Anything more and it's frustrating. Ultralight barrels are hunting barrels, not bench barrels. And shooting them at the bench is usually very frustrating and isn't a true indication of how they'll shoot in the field anyway, unless it takes a couple fowling shots and then 5 shots to drop a coyote.

The only true test of how it'll do in the field is to shoot it how it'll be shot in the field. And then it's either a pass of fail. It either kills the big coffee can or it doesn't. Groups don't mean a thing.

later,
scruffy

tj40 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 01, 2004, 11:07:40 AM »

I am shooting my second .223 and find that they like light bullets, 45gr. seems to work best. When using anything above 50gr. I get the results that you are getting.

hvacman · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2004, 01:47:35 PM »

thanks for all the tips, I appreciate it. I've tried clean barrel,dirty barrel, I've taken an entire afternoon to shoot one 5 round group, I've tried 40 45 and 50 grain bullets, I've tried varying the cartridge overall length. H&R said if I send it in they will try to improve it and lighten the trigger, which I believe is some of the problem. I'll let you know if they help it.

bilesteve · « **Reply #13 on:** October 18, 2004, 10:04:19 AM »

I realize it has been a long time since HVACMAN posted this topic, but I wonder how it worked out after the rifle was sent back to Handi since I am interested in this model and found a nice priced used synthetic superlight in .223. Being a little concerned as I remembered the 2 1/2" being OK with Handi Rifle, I gave them a call and they said people had been having great accuracy with Winchester USA223R1 55 grain ammo.

Any need feedback?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #14 on:** October 18, 2004, 10:19:00 AM »

bilesteve, Thats a great question, what about PM'ing hvacman and seeing if he will let us know. I am interested just because I have not heard of any great accuracy from the superlight barrels. I was thinking that even though they may not be bench rest guns they may be OK (hopefully) for general hunting situations....<><.... :grin:

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #15 on:** October 18, 2004, 02:08:15 PM »

i'd be interested to know where NEF posts spec's for group size.

sg

hvacman · « **Reply #16 on:** October 18, 2004, 04:01:06 PM »

Well, NEF did lighten the trigger and it is good. The accuracy of the superlight barrel leaves a little to be desired. The best I have been able to get out of it is around 1.25 inches. Not bad for a two hundred dollar rifle but i had hoped for more. Since I bought it mainly for a light coyote rifle I cant complain. I am very pleased with the 45/70 barrel I ordered when I sent the gun in and intend to use it for the firearms deer season in a few weeks. NEF doesn't post specs on accuracy they told me they go by SAMMI specs and if a rifle will put 5 shots into 2.5 inches @ 100 yds. it is ok to leave the factory. Some calibers like the 45/70 and a few others they go by 3 inch groups. That is what they told me on the phone

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2004, 04:10:07 PM »

hey for a $200 rifle, a 1 1/4" group isn't that bad !!!

if you spend a bit more time fine tuning it, you'll shrink those groups, or as i like to say - patterns, down pretty well !

the wise old sage fred m. of the great white north once said the name of these guns is "handi" and you do have to be handy to make them shoot right.

each handi is an adventure.

sg

bilesteve · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2004, 05:28:42 PM »

Thanks to HVACMAN for his response on this old thread. For my purposes, 1.25" will be perfectly acceptable and I will be using the Winchester Ammo (USA 223R1) recommended by Handi. This ammo was the only brand that allowed me to get an 1.25" grouping out of my Saiga.

Since you mentioned the .45-70 barrel, have you shot that using the Superlight frame? If so, with a 5+ lb. gun, didn't you have a heckuva kick?

hvacman · « **Reply #19 on:** October 18, 2004, 06:01:44 PM »

I haven't weighed the gun but NEF said that the weight of the 45/70 barrel should take the total weight up to 7 lbs. I have only shot about 40 rounds of remington 300 gr. ammo thru it and it doesn't kick as bad as I anticipated it would. Still, 12 to 15 rds. is enough for one day. I may be a bit of a wuss with recoil but that is enough for me before I start to flinch. After bow season ends [January] I will start reloading for it and them I will really find out. The gun is very accurate for and inexpensive 45/70 and it is just plain to shoot. I added and old Simmons 2.5X32 scope I had on hand so that also increased the weight. If I remember I'll weigh it this week and report on it.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #20 on:** October 19, 2004, 03:06:41 AM »

I don't have a .223 bull barrel for my Ultra yet, but this is the kind of accuracy I am getting out of my Remington 700 ADL in .223 at 100 yards.

Now this was a solid rest with the best conditions of NO CROSS WIND in the 100 yard underground tube. Using Winchester Value pk 55-gr FMJ. Following exactly what safetysheriff has stated WILL get you the right groups. Another thing not mentioned is watch your barrel heat from shooting too many rounds in a string can cause poor groups.