new to bp

[bubba45]

im new to this and was wondering what are the top shelf items i should get for a t/c pennsylvania hunter percussion lock .50 cal. so far its been recommended triple 7 2f powder for charge. what caps are the most reliable; which patches already come oiled; should i get a short starter; is there a particular ball which is best and whats up with those t/c maxi balls with the lube; how long do nipples last? ive heard some dont swab the bore "tween" shots, should i? should the nipple be reamed or is that when dirty? thanx for the info...

[crow_feather]

bubba45,

There are as many variations and techniques as there are shooters.  

I suggest you start with black powder.  It has worked well for over about a thousand years.  Get the basics down, then experiment.  I use 3f for 54 caliber on down, 2f for 58 and above.  

If I were just starting, I would use a 490 swaged ball and around a .012 to .015 lubed patch.  The brand name is a lot less important than the thickness.  Try several, my wife prefers about a .005 and I go for the .010.  Every rifle is a bit different.  Lubed patches can be found at most sporting goods stores or the nearest Walmart.

Most any cap will work but most shooters prefer one brand over the others. I need magnums for my shotgun and so use CCI #11 magnums for everything.

You need a short starter.

You should always carry an extra nipple and a nipple wrench.  

Swab when you find it hard to push your ball on top of the powder.  If you can't get the ball on top of the powder, don't shoot the rifle.

One reason why I use a solid metal ramrod for my "range rod".  I only use my rifle's wooden ramrod for emergencies and when needing a second shot when hunting.

Two things I suggest:   1: Get a book by Lyman, Fadala, or Bridges
2. Take your equipment to the range where black powder shooters go, introduce yourself and ask questions.  Seein, askin, and doin is twice better than writin and doin.

I wish you the best of luck in this grand sport.  I know when I fired my first shot thirty years ago, that I was hooked and I have never regretted it as it has introduced me to the best of friends and the nicest people.

[bubba45]

great, thanx again

[Pogue]

You should also get one of the CO2 ball blowers in case of a misfire.  The old ways of getting out a stuck ball were to use a ball puller screw on your ramrod, or to remove the nipple and trickle some 4F powder and replace the nipple and fire (making sure the ball is completely seated first, of course!).  Both are dangerous methods when compared to the safety afforded by the new ball blowers.

TC, Lyman, CVA, et al,  all offer starter kits that contain the minimums of a short starter, powder measure, etc.  Use a separate powder measure, rather than the one built on the flask for safety (your typical flask is the equivalent of several hand grenades!).

I'd also recommend getting a capper tool.  Always have a needle nose plier, screw driver, and nipple wrench in your bag.  Once you really get into muzzle loading, you'll quickly find the accessories costing more than the rifle!  But that's half the fun...;-)

Lyman's Black Powder Handbook and the Dixie Gun Works catalog both have plenty of good info to get started.

[AndyHass]

I think powder is a personal preference.  While regular BP has worked for a thousand years, that doesn't mean it's better.  I switched to 777 and have never regretted it.  The cleaning is easier, fouling less, and I don't have to worry about my guns rusting if I don't spend an hour cleaning every spot of residue off the barrel.
   777 is also a LOT easier to get in most areas.  I can't even find a dealer for BP anymore.   :?
   No offense to BP people, shoot what works for you.  But for a newbie, substitutes are certainly not derserving of such quick dismissal.  With 777, just remember to lower your charge by 15% when trying to replicate published BP loads as it is about 15% more powerful.

[Ramrod]

I think powder is a personal preference.  While regular BP has worked for a thousand years, that doesn't mean it's better.  I switched to 777 and have never regretted it.  The cleaning is easier, fouling less, and I don't have to worry about my guns rusting if I don't spend an hour cleaning every spot of residue off the barrel.
   777 is also a LOT easier to get in most areas.  I can't even find a dealer for BP anymore.   :?
   No offense to BP people, shoot what works for you.  But for a newbie, substitutes are certainly not derserving of such quick dismissal.  With 777, just remember to lower your charge by 15% when trying to replicate published BP loads as it is about 15% more powerful.

Poor misguided Andy....
Here is how it works for me. I can drive 20 miles and pay $22.00 a pound for 777 or I can have REAL black powder delivered to my door for LESS than $9.00. If you can't find a reason for quick dismissal you must have a real rich uncle on his deathbed.( Or INLINER'S SYNDROME). No offense, but if you can't clean it in 15 minutes, you probably shouldn't shoot it.

[fffffg]

i have this gun in the old target version, i think it used the same barrel. ive since replaced the barrel. but my son won 10th ( nmlra kids contest ) in the nation when he was 10 with this same type gun with peep sights..  he used a bout 50 grns 2f and 490 ball and tc lubed patches..   but the best load will be 490 hornady ball (more consistent than speer), .015 patch,  pure neatsfoot oil on patch,  store will tellyou what caps to use..  even pressue on the powder is what its all about, and wipe between shots with a 45 cal nylon bursh  and patch with and a little neatsfoot oil, if that dont work use a mixture of water and  murphey soap oil ..small amounts... imp.... the problem is if you get any wet powder in the breache it will clog up the nipple and cause firing problems.. so to get accuracy you need to wipe, and this caouses misfires..    a unkle mikes nipple with a hole in it will help..  you should get two to three shots  before problems arise, so it should be fine..  yes use a short starter, you can put gun on a scale when starting to load and press down about 40 pounds.. you can try other weigjhts amounts of powder betwween 65 and 90 grains, i would use 2f..  you can clean the bore after it is loaaded (no cap) and some target shooters do this, ..  get pure  neets fool oil for all your patches or use bear oil,  it is the best,, i can argu and explain and go into it for a page or so, but try it and learn how to make it work,,   good luck dave..

[crow_feather]

Well Bubba,
As you can see, there are differences of opinion as to how to do it well in this sport.  There are a lot of ways to do it right, but the best way will be your way.  Hope to see you in a year or so writing on GBO telling us how you got everything working well.

Just remember two things.  1.  Always seat the ball (or whatever) on the powder before you shoot.   2.  Never pour powder from the flask into the barrel.  Also, always close, or plug your powder horn, before you shoot near it.

Best of luck,

C F

[AndyHass]

quote]Poor misguided Andy....
Here is how it works for me. I can drive 20 miles and pay $22.00 a pound for 777 or I can have REAL black powder delivered to my door for LESS than $9.00. If you can't find a reason for quick dismissal you must have a real rich uncle on his deathbed.( Or INLINER'S SYNDROME, more money than brains). No offense, but if you can't clean it in 15 minutes, you probably shouldn't shoot it.

You're right, I am misguided.  I thought this board was for the intelligent, mature discussion of traditional muzzleloading (hence the moderator).  Judging from the juvenile hostility I got to a simple difference of opinion, I was sadly mistaken.
    I shoot both traditional and inlines, and enjoy both.  However I always seem to go back to inline-only message boards, because while I am interested in the information on traditional boards such as this, the same individuals who can't tolerate someone who thinks a little differently than them circulate and ruin them all.
    Why don't more people take up traditional shooting instead of inlines?  It isn't surprising given the welcome people get around here.  If I were to judge from the groups posting on both the traditional and modern boards here at greybeard, it wouldn't be the inliners that I thought lacked brains.
    Back to the original issue, I can go down to Wal-Mart and buy my 777 when I run low instead of waiting to shoot until it is delivered (and how do you do that and get around the regulations?).  If I were too poor to spend a few bucks for the added convenience, I wouldn't waste it on shooting.

[filmokentucky]

Andy- I think the point that people keep missing is that this is the forum
for traditional firearms-that's why the word traditional is in bold face type in the forum title. A clear line was drawn some time back when the in-line site was split from the traditional forum. There are just too many differences between the two approaches to the sport for them to be in the same forum. Even among traditionalists, different opinions exist about what is and isn't traditional. And, Triple 7 isn't traditional.
    If it's taking an hour to clean a firearm, something is radically wrong. In
fact, 10 minutes is more like it for a long gun with a barrel pinned to the stock. In well over 30 years, I have yet to have rust appear on any of my guns, and I have never used anything but real black powder.  Hot water, some patches, dry it out, wipe it down, a little oil-that's about it. The old-timers didn't have all sorts of solvents and soaps and what-all. People tend to over complicate things today.
    Maine Powder House And TOW can supply black powder in 25 pound lots. Best way is to get together with some fellow shooters and split the cost. If you really want the real stuff you can get it. Around here, it is sometimes hard to get. Some folks were complaining about it but when I suggested we split an order, they declined and bought fake stuff instead. I
think they were just looking for a reason to do so. "Course, it's not working out very well in their flintlocks. But, if you can't shoot it, I guess you don't have to clean it  so maybe it is a labor saver after all.

[crow_feather]

AndyHass,

While regular BP has worked for a thousand years, that doesn't mean it's better. I switched to 777 and have never regretted it. The cleaning is easier, fouling less, and I don't have to worry about my guns rusting if I don't spend an hour cleaning every spot of residue off the barrel.

That statement is yours and is not necessarily correct.  If someone takes offense to your degrading a traditional part of black powder shooting, and calls you on it, what gives you the right to denigrate all traditional rifle shooters?

Maybe you should stay on the in-line side of GBO.  Traditional is a touch more than just carrying a side lock rifle.

C F

[AndyHass]

Because I suggest 777 may be better than BP I am DEGRADING traditional shooting?   :shock:    I think that is a touch insecure.
  "An hour" was an exaggeration.  The increased corrosiveness was not.  But if you will not try 777, you would not know the difference.
  I was not "denigrating" all traditional shooters...just the ones who feel the need to jump down someone's throat for such a small difference in preferences.  I didn't suggest the guy stuff sabots down his barrel.
  Last time I tried, I was told that in Michigan you need a personal permit just to POSESS BP.  When I used to shoot traditional matches, NOBODY shot real BP because nobody cared to go through the grief of obtaining it.
    If your tolerance for difference is so small, it is clear why the forum split and it has nothing to do with guns.   :roll:
    I'd hate to see what you do to someone who shoots swaged balls...they're not period either.

[crow_feather]

AndyHass,

Swaged round balls!  My God man, that is blasphemy.  Next some one will be talkin about ugh! prelubed patches or yech! steel toed moccasins.

O K  So what is up with Michigan that a person cannot own blackpowder unless he gets a permit?  And what about the black powder attached to the back of those pyrodex pellets?  Do you need a permit for them?

I guess there is only one thing for you to do.  Move to Idaho where a person can shoot black powder like God wanted him to.  

I seriously do not think any one jumped down your throat, they just let you know that they took exception to what you were sayin.  As was said before, black powder is traditional, 777 isn't.  This is the traditional forum, and even though not everyone shoots black powder for one reason or another, most don't try to tell others starting out to not go traditional.

Best of luck,

C F

[AndyHass]

AndyHass,
 I seriously do not think any one jumped down your throat, they just let you know that they took exception to what you were sayin.  As was said before, black powder is traditional, 777 isn't.  This is the traditional forum, and even though not everyone shoots black powder for one reason or another, most don't try to tell others starting out to not go traditional.

C F

Well, being told I am misguided and have more money than brains is certainly jumping down my throat...Not very vague to me!
   Yes, Michigan is dumb to regulate BP so heavily, I can buy fuel oil and ammonium nitrate a lot easier and it's a lot more destructive.  I understand that BP is clearly more traditional; but when a newbie asks what to use as he gets started, I don't think it is out of line to suggest he use something readily available in many more areas that BP and less stringently regulated.  They will be a lot more likely to continue shooting if they don't have to spend weeks trying to land the powder.  A newbie is unlikely to have a network of traditionalist friends to point them in the right direction to obtaining BP locally.  After they are hooked, they can always switch over when their new shooting buddies hook them up.
   If I own a long gun of 1:72" twist but the lack of a BP permit means I must shoot pyrodex, what am I to do?  My questions clearly don't belong in the "modern" forum, yet you claim my use of a BP replacement excludes me from the traditional forum as well!  Such a setup, very common in the ML world, is clearly more traditional than modern and questions about it are more likely to be answerable in this forum than the modern one.
   I hate to see another thread hijacked by this argument (with me in the middle no less) but I don't see why there is such animosity here.  It's like the Civil War reinactments where they make the new guy feel like hell because he shows up with one too many buttons on his uniform.  Instead of turning him off right away why not bring him into the fold and then "educate" him?  Too much emphasis on nitpicking what is "traditional" taking away from the good stuff...talking about making smoke and sending lead downrange.  If you like it fine, promote the hell out of it.  But don't expect everyone to see it EXACTLY your way.  :wink:
   The first ML shoot I went to I showed up with a rifle with too fast a twist to shoot balls.  I was young, they let me shoot sabots anyways and instructed me on the proper equipment to borrow for next time.   If that group had treated me poorly, I might never have gotten addicted to the sport.

[crow_feather]

AndyHass,

For new persons, it's nice to start out with the basics.  Black powder isn't as hard as the other propellants to ignite.  Once things get easier and one knows what is happening and why, then if they're unhappy with what they have, start trying other stuff.  It might be difficult to obtain black powder, but I do consider it worth the effort.  

best of luck

C F

[Ramrod]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the substitutes are better IS misguided. I have tried Pyrodex, Pyrodex Select, and 777. What I got was poor ignition, hard crud fouling, vertical stringing on targets indicating a wide velocity variation, and poor shelf life with opened cans.
I don't think this is a great way to start a newbie off. He can't use it in a flintlock, when he can't get the fake powder to light in his caplock he has to start experimenting with different nipples, musket caps, or change to rifle primers. Or like alot of them he just sticks the gun in a closet and gives up.
As for money, lets try one more time....
$22.00 vs 8.86

[Good time Charlie]

I have been shooting 777 in my cap guns for awhile and I like it fine in them. But when I got my TC Hawken flinter it would not shoot the stuff.  I was about ready to through the gun away untill some one on the board told me to get some goex. I did and the gun soots great! I am shooting 3f for bouth load and priming.
                                           Charlie

[filmokentucky]

I've noticed how short tempered and irritable the folks who use these fake black powders are. Absolutely no sense of humor. Must be something to do with all the chemicals in that stuff. Oh, well.
  Seriously, the people that I personally know who have used Pyrodex or Triple7 only used it as a stop gap until they could get the real thing. They found it harder to light off and the fouling was harder, too. And it is way more costly. Still, I suppose it beats throwing rocks.

[crow_feather]

Well bubba45,
I do hope we answered your questions........................................

C F

[bubba45]

...and then some.

[AndyHass]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks the substitutes are better IS misguided. I have tried Pyrodex, Pyrodex Select, and 777. What I got was poor ignition, hard crud fouling, vertical stringing on targets indicating a wide velocity variation, and poor shelf life with opened cans.
I don't think this is a great way to start a newbie off. He can't use it in a flintlock, when he can't get the fake powder to light in his caplock he has to start experimenting with different nipples, musket caps, or change to rifle primers. Or like alot of them he just sticks the gun in a closet and gives up.
As for money, lets try one more time....
$22.00 vs 8.86

If you get vertical stringing, the propellant is not your problem.  I know dozens of "fake powder" shooters and none of them have reported this problem.  I went through a pound of 777 yesterday and had no such problems.  
    If you have ignition problems in a caplock, it is your technique and again not the powder.  I have shot pyrodex and 777 in caplocks for years and never had an ignition issue with regular #11 caps.  All misfires were attributable to me, usually for forgetting to clear residual oil from the barrel.
    Flintlocks shoot BP only...that is not a point to argue.

[Ramrod]

Andy, Let it go dude, you have no credibility here. Your the guy who takes an hour to clean your gun, remember? Not worth my time to get in a peeing contest with an Inliner. ( Sorry guys for the swear word :-D ), but thats where Mr. Hass usually posts, I checked.

[Omnivore]

Bubba,

My CVA percussion rifle had severe ignition troubles when I started out with substitute powders. It no-fired every 3rd shot or so.  Then I tried real BP (Goex) and never turned back.   That same rifle will malfunction but only after about 20 shots or so.  All that is needed then is to take out the clean out screw and clear the channel under the nipple once that load is finally cleared. It crusts up after a while.

Another tip to help insure better ignitions is to bump the nipple side of the lock with your hand.  This helps settle the powder in the nipple channel.

Be aware to not reload with the muzzle too close to your face.  If small embers remain in the nipple area they can ignite a fresh load after you pour it in.  I also seat the projectile with my left hand, just in case.

Get you a small fishing tackle box to keep all the  gear you collect for the range. Balls in one bin, patches, nipples, short starter, etc.  Real handy item.  Also, don't store caps and powder in the the same bag or box.

[mamaflinter]

im new to this and was wondering what are the top shelf items i should get for a t/c pennsylvania hunter percussion lock .50 cal. so far its been recommended triple 7 2f powder for charge. what caps are the most reliable; which patches already come oiled; should i get a short starter; is there a particular ball which is best and whats up with those t/c maxi balls with the lube; how long do nipples last? ive heard some dont swab the bore "tween" shots, should i? should the nipple be reamed or is that when dirty? thanx for the info...

Bubba I'd like to recommend a website I created for beginner's such as yourself new to the sport of muzzleloading. It will give you alot of sound advice and give you a list of things both that are necessary and other "nice to have" items, but you don't have to have them just starting out. The link to the site is http://mamaflinter.tripod.com/ Feel free to print off the pages. I've gotten emails from people around the world who have found the site and said that they've printed off pages and taken them to the range while there so they would have them in case something happene.

Good luck to you. If you have any questions about anything up there, I've got links to email me.

[KING]

:grin: For what it is worth gentleman I will voice a little experiance.  I do have some,just kinda hard to find once in awhile.  I have found that when an experiance shooter starts using the replica powders(777,Clean shot,pyrodex,etc),it causes some degree of confusion as to the proper load to use....Use 15 percent less,15 percent additional,volum charge vs a weighed charge..............things can get a little interesting to say the least.  When a new person reads up on the subject and wants to shoot one of our frontstuffers he is confused enough.......the less there is of this critter the more fun he will have,and inturn hopefully stay with the sport.  The more things are kept simple,the less problems that will develop.  From the above information you will be correct that I shoot BP(Goex,Swiss,Elephant,German powder also(Schuetzen)),and enjoy them all.  I kind of fugure that over the years they have done a good job for me,and I also have no complaints in ref to them.  I also do not get a case of magnumitis as a new person might get.  777 is not a powder to be used when this virus gets you.  If,after a lot of experiance he wants to use the new stuff,more power to him in that respect..............but a new person...........keep it simple........stay safe...................King :shock: