Author Topic: Shooting a dirty rifle. (Read 1278 times)

De41mag · « **on:** June 03, 2004, 01:15:53 PM »

Been shooting the Ultra in 223 for almost two weeks now;
Have put over a hundred rounds through it with out cleaning it.
Mostly the Win. 45gr. HP in the Value pack.
It seems the dirter the barrel the better it shoots. I've even shot some Wolf 55gr.HP's (35rnds.)
It's now averaging under 2" for five shot groups with a Leupold M8-4X33 fixed power.
And about an hour ago I think I just made one of the ugliest Ultras you've ever seen. Had a Simmons 3X9X40mm in frosted SILVER which came off his Ruger Compact 7mm-08, laying around so I mounted on the Ultra.
Man what contrast with that laminated brown stock, matte mounts and rings and that SILVER scope. :eek: :eek:
Trying to shrink the groups even more.
Hope to see 1 inch groups soon.

JPH45 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2004, 02:49:16 PM »

I have noticed a similar thing happens with my 44. Left uncleaned and shooting cast bullets lubed with Lymans Super Moly lube, the guns get to where they will shoot uncanny groups. Even helps how the jacketed bullets shoot. If I clean the guns, all bets are off for a while. I believe, as a result of a squib load that drove a couple bullets to the muzle of my 45-70, that
these barrels are actually poorly rifled. The bottom of the groves in my 45-70 showed some very deep tool marks on those bullets, indicating small burrs and such let from the rifling process.

Some jacket material can fill in places and smooth up the bore, probably making the guns shoot a bit better. At least this is what I suspect is going on. A good way to tell is to use Hoppes #9 Benchrest or use Butches Bore Shine. Both these will etch copper and show color on a patch during cleaning. Obviously, the longer it takes to get a color free patch, the more coper is in the barrel.

I did notice with my 30-30, that before I cleaned it, it was shooting a well rounded group of about 1.5". After cleaning, and getting a bit of lead out, the group tightened up a lot, but 10 shots now made 2 seperate groups. For what it's worth. JP

lik2hunt · « **Reply #2 on:** June 03, 2004, 03:25:34 PM »

Well that's just great!

AZ223 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 03, 2004, 03:59:19 PM »

I've had similar results with my .223 Ultra; it doesn't seem to care how dirty I let it get, though I don't usually go more than 150 rounds or so. And I feel a little guilty going for that long -- when my father introduced me to guns, he was adamant about cleaning them as soon as we got home. Some habits are hard to break. :roll:

Big Blue · « **Reply #4 on:** June 03, 2004, 04:13:26 PM »

I was real disappointed with the Ultra .223 shooting Hornady 40gr. moly coated bulets when I first tried them, now I let the barrel build up some moly in it, and they shoot great. What is the proper way to clean a barrel using moly bullets? I did notice that the BC gets really dirty using Varget powder. I just bought some H4895 to try in it.
Don

handirifle · « **Reply #5 on:** June 03, 2004, 08:26:34 PM »

I found out that my son's standard 223 shoots the first 3 shots from a clean barrel low (like 4") and left. by the 4th shot it starts putting them into 1/2 to 3/4" grougs at 100yds. Odd but true.

missed_shot · « **Reply #6 on:** June 04, 2004, 02:34:19 AM »

I think people get carried away with cleaning. My father [ now in his 80"s ] shot firearms all his life. He rarely cleaned his barrels and still was able to win many competitions with a dirty bore.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 04, 2004, 07:28:12 AM »

Each rifle is different...some shoot great with little or no cleaning...others with-in 10-20 shots start to act squirrly...my 308 is that way...if it's clean it can be a tac-driver...if I go 25-50 shots between cleaning accuracy falls off,going back to the 1"-1-1/2" grouping average...I guess it's time to get really searous with smoothing things out in the bore and then coating it with something....Dunns here in St.Louis is clearencing out all of their older Hornady bullets...50% off their clearence prices and I got to stock up on some...going to try some of the light weight varmint rounds 110 grain soft points and some of the heavy weight 180 gr. BTSP as well...also I got a old box of 130 hollow points of Speers to try while I was there...can't beat the price...$4.00 for the Speers and & $7.88 for the Hornadys.......

Mac

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2004, 03:36:44 AM »

i've seen a similar behavior in my 45-70, 30-30, and 30-06 barrels with cast bullets. a nice shiny barrel gives you 4" groups that go up, down, left or right. but, smear it up with some lead and lymans super moly lube and things tighten up, even with a cold barrel to a point, the cold shots are still off a bit. i'm not sure if i can isolate the cause(s).

the material left in the barrel must act as a seal or at least help the bullet better engage the rifling. another train of thought i had was that after a few shots, the barrel expands a bit and tightens up in the receiver and the gook in barrel is just a distraction.

has anyone recovered any bullets from a clean barrel and then a dirty barrel ?, what did you see on the base and driving bands ? was it gas checked ? how about mic'ing a cold barrel, shooting it and then mic'ing again ?

sg

AZ223 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2004, 10:55:43 AM »

Quote from: ScatterGunner

...has anyone recovered any bullets from a clean barrel and then a dirty barrel ?, what did you see on the base and driving bands ? was it gas checked ? how about mic'ing a cold barrel, shooting it and then mic'ing again ?
sg

I haven't tried any of them, but looks like I've got a fun project for the summer. :-D

BTW -- What medium would you suggest using to "preserve" the fired bullets so I can find them? Just shoot through several jugs of water?

ScatterGunner · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2004, 01:03:16 PM »

richard lee would shoot and recover bullets from his swimming pool. i wouldn't think juniors blow-up wading pool would do much to slow a 30-06 however !!!

a stack of wet news paper ?, ductseal ?, a dirt backstop ?

the more i think about this, it sounds like a thermal anomoly and not a barrel gook thing, but, i 've been wrong almost as much as i've been right ! almost !

handi - did your son son shoot those bullets rapidly or were they all cold barrel shots ?

Fred M · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2004, 04:11:37 PM »

The expansion coefficient for medium steel is 0.00067 for 100F. A linear expansion would only be applicable between the standing breech and the hinge pin which is 2-3/4" and increase of 100F would change the lenght by 0.00184". Say your gun is 75F, at 175F you gain 2 thou. You got more play than that in most actions. A hot gun would help to tighten things up a bit. Though not likely the groups.

Never had much luck with dirty bores. With Moly bullets I can shoot 25 rounds before I clean, you don't have to but I do, but I only clean out the carbon not to the bare metal unless it is very badly fauled with copper.

A SP bullet will deform when shot into water, same as shooting it into an animal. This test would tell you nothing about accuracy except expansion at MV what good is that?

Fred M.

GPWEAPON · « **Reply #12 on:** June 07, 2004, 09:00:48 AM »

I'm from the stainless no clean camp. used to shoot the M1A for thousands of rounds amd only kleen the chamber bolt op rod etc.when she started to stick never swabed the barrel over 15,000+ rounds it and it got swabed less than half dozen times and still shot clover's at 100 with the pet load when I sold it.

Thunder38849 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 14, 2004, 11:17:21 AM »

I am soooooo glad I found this forum!

Recently I have been reading post after post on another forum about how well the NEF Handi-Rifle preforms. After looking at the Handi-Rifle and seeing the price tag, I was HIGHLY skeptical of the accuracy. I have always been a Weatherby Mark V & LazerMark shooter which is where the disbelief of a cheap rifle having outstanding accuracy as I had read the Handi-Rifle possesses.
So, I decided to take a trip to Bass Pro in Memphis, TN to purchase a Handi-Rifle & scope. The next day I drove a long way to a range where no one who knew me would see me with a NEF rifle.
To make a long story short...... I am AMAZED!!!! Since shooting the rifle and getting it zeroed .75 @ 100yds. (3 shot groups) I haven't had the Weatherbys out of the safe!

When I read this thread it helped convince me that I am not going nutts. My rifle will shoot .75 @ 100 with a dirty barrel. But, if I clean it and fire at the bullseye I can't get remotely close. The second shot will be closer and the third or forth is right back in tune. Talked to a few people about this and they all considered me to be off my rocker.

Happy to know I am not the only one with such experiences.

223Shooter · « **Reply #14 on:** June 14, 2004, 11:45:22 AM »

My .223 NEF likes a clean cold barrel to start. Although I will admit that I have not let my rifle go over 25 rounds without cleaning. I may have to try that someday. But I'm like one of the other fellows that posted, I was trained to always clean your gun when you were done shooting for the day. I still do that to this day. My .223 NEF has shot a 1/4"group at 60 yards (5 shots) in my backyard with my handloads. Good enough for mr. coyote..........

handirifle · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2004, 12:35:15 PM »

I think the cleaning thing is overrated, personally. The powders and primers are far LESS corrosive than years ago, even the BP substitutes are cleaner.

If the rifle's been wet, in the dirt or something else I'll clean it, otherwise, not too often.

Heck, my Marlin 22LR semi auto lasted 40years and got cleaned maybe half a dozen times. Ever clean a semi auto 22 and NOT get gunk in the action? Darn near impossible.

Handi's are another story. But like I posted earlier, if I clean my son's rifle, it shoots everywhere. Left dirty it shoots 5 shot strings well under na inch. That's with the Win Value Pak ammo.

Johnboy1948 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2004, 05:24:39 PM »

223 Ultra heavy barrel
clean bore (with light coat of oil in it from last cleaning with Butch's Bore Shine)

The first several shots at the range (100 yards) do this: (plus or minus)

1st shot is 8" high.
2nd shot is 5" high.
3rd shot is 3" high.
4th shot is 1" high.
5th shot is on target.

Remaining shots are on target, even if I shoot 40 or 50 times (no overheating of the barrel). This gun just needs a few fouling shots to blow out the oil, I guess. If I swab the bore with a few dry patches before beginning to shoot the first few shots are closer to the bullseye, i.e., less stringing.

So, when I plan to go hunting I go to the range first, shoot it 10 to 20 times to check it out, and I leave the gun uncleaned to hunt with.

If I arrive at the hunting lease with a clean gun I take 4 or 5 fouling shots to "tune it up". I did this last fall, and popped a crow at 100 yards plus. (Caught some grief about it not having any horns.)

I am still checking out this situation to see if my thoughts hold true.

John