Author Topic: High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer  (Read 793 times)

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Offline yooper

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« on: June 04, 2004, 05:16:43 PM »
My revolver seems to enjoy printing the shots about 4 FEET high at 25 yards...I use .454 rbs and have tried Lee 451 conicals,varied the powder charge up and down from 18 to 30 grains 3f goex...What's next? A nice home made sight?I'm open for suggestions...Thanks in advance.

Offline Augustus McCrae

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2004, 10:45:17 AM »
If its like the 58 Remington, the sights are set at around 75yds.  You can TAKE YOUR TIME and file down the front sight a little at a time.
I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him.

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Offline The Powder Keg

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2004, 10:56:57 AM »
Don't file the front sight or you will be shooting 5 feet high!
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Offline alpini

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2004, 11:11:27 AM »
You need a higher front sight or you need to take down the rear some. I'm not sure of the R&S set-up, but on Colts it's easy to swap out. I used an old brass key and cut a sliver out of it, then filed it to fit the slot in the barrel. At the range, I raised the impact by filing the sight down to bring it on target.

Offline filmokentucky

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2004, 12:39:10 PM »
After shooting C&B revolvers for longer than I care to think about, and examing a number of originals over the years, I've decided that the old timers left their sights alone. The originals all seemed to have sights of full height. I think they just held high or low to compensate for range(and they were probably good estimators). Bill Hickock's 75 yard one shot stop on Dave Tutt is a good example. Supposedly made with a Colt's Navy, this
is well outside of normal range. He had to be holding over to make this shot and a square full of people saw him do it. Even if he was using a Dragoon model it was still a heckuva shot.
    I don't mess with elevation on my revolvers any more. I just try to estimate ranges. It's actually a lot of fun and it gets easier the more you do it. Windage I do fiddle with. By way of example, I have an "F" series Walker that I can, on a good day, hit ten pins with 5 times out of 6 at
100 yards. 'Course, it took a long, long time before I got to where I could
do it, but it was worth the wait.
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Offline Ramrod

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2004, 03:31:18 PM »
I agree with filmokentucky, the old guns are usually unmodified. But here's the deal. They were combat guns! Target guns had better sights, just like modern guns. A gun that shoots a foot high is perfect for a center of body hold on a man size target. Range and drop are not even taken into account in a gunfight.
yooper... 4 feet indicates a serious problem. Runout in the barrel's bore, or bad frame or some other mechanical cause.
"Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." Patti Smith

Offline HWooldridge

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2004, 03:57:11 PM »
My 1860 shoots 18 inches high at 25 yds but groups quite well so I do as everyone else has suggested and hold off.  The Colts are also all affected by where the hammer stops at full cock since that is the rear sight.  A hammer that rotates further backwards toward the grip will shoot lower than one that stops at the apex of the circle.  However, this doesn't account for all the solid frame pistols that also shoot high.  I had a Dixie 1858 Remington years ago that shot right on at 25 yds but it was affected by how firmly I held it.  A sweaty, greasy palm allowed it to flip more and it was harder to control.

Offline yooper

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2004, 05:15:45 PM »
I guess I'll hang the thing on a wall and go back to shooting a Reminton.I really do like the fit of the R&S in my hand...Thanks for the input.

Offline filmokentucky

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2004, 06:21:18 PM »
I wouldn't hang it up. In Europe the  R&S is a well thought of target gun.
And I know people who swear by them. With any sort of front loader a bit of patience will usually get them shooting straight. I'd spend some time with it. It isn't rocket science, and it doesn't pay to take it too seriously.
When I get frustrated by one of my guns, I always take a coffee break and remind myself that I'm supposed to be having fun.
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Offline alpini

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2004, 06:36:40 PM »
Don't hang that R&S up yet without trying to change that front sight out or messing with Kentucky windage. I'll bet it's a better shooter than a wall hanger.

Offline Somerled

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2004, 04:47:33 PM »
filmokentucky:

The original Colt 1851s often printed dead on at 75 yds. My 30-year old replica does as well.

In Oct. 1862, William Quantrill made what he later called "a damned good shot" during an Aubry, Kansas, raid. He shot a man, Abraham Ellis, in the forehead when Ellis mistakenly stuck his head out of a window to see what the ruckus was all about. It was a 75-yard shot. After Quantrill and his men went inside the house, Quantrill discovered he had shot his former employer. Ellis had hired Quantrill to teach school a few years before. Quantrill cleaned Ellis up and apologized. Ellis lived for many years afterward.
"Let us speak courteously, deal fairly, and keep ourselves armed and ready."
President Theodore Roosevelt, San Francisco, Calif., May 13, 1903

Offline Gatofeo

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2004, 04:43:18 AM »
Yep, the Colt cap and balls typically hit rather high.
My Colt 2nd generation 1851 Navy hits dead-on at a point between 75 and 100 yards: a couple inches high at 75 yards, a couple inches low at 100.
Here in the remote Utah desert I've plinked with it out to a measured 300 yards. You have to hold the top of the hammer even with the rear of barrel, near the forcing cone, to lob those little balls onto a rock or bush at that range, but it will do it.
Of course, at that range, a good group is about the size of a sheet of plywood: not pinpoint accuracy but enough to rattle the nerves of someone shooting at you.
I could hit a standing man at 100 yards with the Colt, if I needed to.
Lately, I've been thinking of writing a magazine article concerning the use of cap and ball revolvers at long range, out to 300 yards.
In the 1920s, when the late gun writer Elmer Keith began writing articles about shooting handguns at long range, it caused quite a stir. Back then, most people thought of handguns as 50-yard propositions, at most.
Keith was hitting man-sized stumps at 300 and 400 yards, and once shot the <expletive deleted> out of an old outhouse at 600 yards or better.  :eek:
I suspect that with a full load that is accurate, most cap and ball revolvers (excluding the .31 caliber and the smaller .36 Police or Pocket) could make life interesting for an opponent out to 200 yards, perhaps 300.
Keith said one thing years ago that always stuck with me: If you want to see how accurate a load is, shoot it at long range. Variances are multiplied at long range and will become apparent, whereas at 25 or 50 yards they may not be noticeable.
He's right. Conical bullets in my Colt Navy and Remington .44 are all over the landscape at 300 yards --- but a proper-sized lead ball is remarkably consistent as to where it lands.
As for that Rogers & Spencer hitting so high, I haven't a clue. Hitting 4 feet high at 25 yards simply isn't normal. I wonder if that barrel has been bent.
Keith said many cowpokes --- and many cowboys were remarkably ignorant when it came to their guns --- bent the barrels of their old Colts upward after using it for a club during a fight, or using it as a hammer or pry bar! The result was often a gun that shot extremely high.
If that R&S is a new gun, I'd ship it back. If not, perhaps you can have a machinist or gunsmith check the squareness of the barrel to the frame.
The faster a pistol projectile moves, the lower it will land on a 25-yard target. The slower the bullet moves, the higher it will land.
So, your bugaboo may be attributed to powder contaminated with moisture. The powder burns unevenly and not completely, producing a very low muzzle velocity.
If you have access to a chronograph, check some of your loads about 15 feet from the muzzle. You shouldn't see more than 30 to 40 feet per second variation from shot to shot. That is, one shot at 800, another at 820 and the third at 780 fps.
But if you start seeing 800, 690, 825 and son on ... scrutinize your powder.
If you live in a damp climate, don't store your powder in a flask. Flasks are not airtight and will allow moisture into the powder. Black powder is hygroscopic, meaning it will draw moisture from the air.
This happened to yours truly, once. In damp climates, store your powder in its original, airtight can and fill your flask before you go to the range. When you return, pour what's left in your flask back in the can.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline AndyHass

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High shoot'n Rogers and Spencer
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2004, 03:53:12 AM »
My 1858 shot two feet high at 25 with roundballs when I got it...and poorly at that.  I maxed the adjustable sight, still no dice (1 foot high).  Switched to Buffalo conicals and now it shoots great...I don't question, I just went with it.