250 shock waves

[ms]

Hello first time here can anyone tell me how the 250 shock waves fly? :wink:

[RandyWakeman]

They are the same bullet as Hornady SST's-- different sabot.

[big6x6]

I consider the 250gr SST/Shockwave a "must try" in a new muzzleloader.  They seem to shoot really good in the majority of muzzleloaders.

[flintlock]

Just sighted in with Hornadys version this weekend.....using two 50gr pellets...3 inches high at 100...dead on at 150...In a Knight Disc with 22" barrel...have changed to these from the Barnes 300gr....Barnes, also with 2 pellets would be 3" high at 100 and 3" low at 150....Hornadys grouped well...about 1-1 1/2 inches at 100....flintlock

[flintlock]

Randy....You said the sabots are different....I did notice that the sabots from Hornadys really open up well...all four petals are 90 degrees from base, after shooting...Knight sabots wouldn't do that....I guess this is why they are so accurate??? Can you buy these sabots seperate?? In case you need to push a load out of the barrel....and not reuse the old...or have to use a new Knight sabot.....I plan to try SSTs with a Knight sabot...to see how the bullets shoot with...in case I need to do this....Thanks...flintlock

[RandyWakeman]

Randy....You said the sabots are different....I did notice that the sabots from Hornadys really open up well...all four petals are 90 degrees from base, after shooting...Knight sabots wouldn't do that....I guess this is why they are so accurate??? Can you buy these sabots seperate??

Keeping track of sabots is a mess. The sabots that come with SST's "could be" MMP, Harvester, or Hornady's own manufacture. Add this condition to the way a given dealer might rotate his inventory-- it is very hard to tell what you might be getting with your bullets.

About the only way to be really certain of sabot consistency is to get your sabots directly from mmpsabots.com . What manufacturer or blend of polymer that comes in a Hornady box is anybody's guess.

[Nic_58]

Is the problem of more than one manufacturer of sabot the same for the Shockwaves as the SST's?  The Shockwaves that I shot last week grouped nicely but I would like to keep things consistent.  Do I need to order sabots from MMP for the T/C Shockwaves or are they more consistent than the Hornady's?

[big6x6]

"Is the problem of more than one manufacturer of sabot the same for the Shockwaves as the SST's"

My understanding is, as of now, Shockwave sabots may be made by either MMP OR T/C and SST sabots may be made by MMP, Hornady, or Harvester.

Most consistent shooting results, unfortunately, would be to substitute the supplied sabot with a known entity such as MMP or Harvester and always use those.

[Nic_58]

I decided to call MMP last Friday and Del Ramsey himself answered the phone.  He was a right friendly gentleman to chat with and was more than glad to help me out.  I ordered some of the black .50 caliber sabots for .451-.452 bullets.  I am taking the advice of more experienced shooters than I and am going to use only the MMP sabots designed for my particular gun and bullet choice.  I hope to take the uncertainty of sabot manufacturer out of the accuracy equation.  I have been shooting Shockwaves but am going to switch over to the SST's next time I order because it looks like I can buy them a little cheaper.  Hope to try them out sometime soon if it doesn't get too hot to shoot.

[grouse]

I decided to call MMP last Friday and Del Ramsey himself answered the phone.  He was a right friendly gentleman to chat with and was more than glad to help me out.  I ordered some of the black .50 caliber sabots for .451-.452 bullets.  I am taking the advice of more experienced shooters than I and am going to use only the MMP sabots designed for my particular gun and bullet choice.  I hope to take the uncertainty of sabot manufacturer out of the accuracy equation.  I have been shooting Shockwaves but am going to switch over to the SST's next time I order because it looks like I can buy them a little cheaper.  Hope to try them out sometime soon if it doesn't get too hot to shoot.

The MMP sabots worked great with the SST'S this past weekend. you
should be really happy.

[Nic_58]

Grouse, I still want to try some Dead Centers in 260 and 300 grain.  I have tried the 200, 220 and 240 grain 40/50's but so far haven't found the correct combination to suit me.  I will keep trying but I have the feeling that the heavier 260's and 300's may shoot better out of my T/C.  My problem so far has been that I don't want to shoot less than 100 grs. T7ffg and I can't get the Dead Centers to shoot well with that.  But the 250 gr. Shockwave/SST shot great with 100 grs. T7.  Can't wait to try the MMP/SST combo out.  Glad to hear you had good luck with them!

[big6x6]

"I decided to call MMP last Friday and Del Ramsey himself answered the phone.'

He's one of the nicest guys I've talked to in the muzzleloading industry.  You really WANT to buy stuff from him.  

I think you made a good decision.

[AndyHass]

My problem so far has been that I don't want to shoot less than 100 grs. T7ffg and I can't get the Dead Centers to shoot well with that.  But the 250 gr. Shockwave/SST shot great with 100 grs. T7.  

    Why do you not want to shoot less than 100 grains?  Depending on your intended purpose, the Dead Centers can't be counted out on charge alone.  My hunting load last year was a 195 grain DC over 100 grains.  I could push the 250 SST with similar accuracy to 150 grains, but I ran the numbers and past 135 yards the DC bullet had more energy retention and a flatter trajectory.
     At closer range, energy is high enough with both bullets that it just depends how much punishment you want to inflict on your shoulder

[Nic_58]

      Depending on your intended purpose, the Dead Centers can't be counted out on charge alone.  

Andy, you have a valid point there.  If all else fails with my 100 gr. load and the various Dead Centers, then I will experiment with lighter or possibly heavier loads, whatever it takes to get one of the DC's to shoot out of my gun.  I know I would sure like to get one of them to perform well.  I'll stumble across the right combo sooner or later!

[big6x6]

Andy,

"but I ran the numbers and past 135 yards the DC bullet had more energy retention and a flatter trajectory."

I hope you didn't use the bcs on PRs website.  The numbers are WAY inflated.  Consider a .45/.50 300gr Dead Center.  PR list the bc at .336.  Consider Hornady list a 300gr SST at .250 and the Hornady is actually a longer bullet!  

One example(of quite a few) of a bc I have calculated is a 200gr D/C.  The bc I calculated was .179 over 100yds.  PR list the bc at 0.300!  Another example is the D/C 240gr. The bc I calculated is 0.211 while PR list it as .351!

Some manufactures do a MUCH better job at listing the actual bc.  Hornady list the 200gr .40 XTP at .199.  My figures are .183.  They also list the .429 240gr XTP at .205.  My figures are .193.  That's REALLY close.  Barnes list their new 245gr Spit Fire with a bc of .203 my calculations indicate it is actually .213.  Barnes indicates their 195gr Expander having a bc of .176.  My testing indicates it is .210.  Hats off to Barnes Bullets for lowballing their bc!!!

There's no rocket science involved in calculating a bc.  Take a velocity at the muzzle or close to it and at a verified distance downrange.  Plug the numbers into Oehlers Ballistic Explorer and you've got it.  Chronograph readings don't lie.

[AndyHass]

Chuck,
   You're telling me that the 200 grain, .40 cal XTP has a HIGHER BC than a DC of the same weight and caliber???  No offense intended, but I just don't buy it.  I have shot both bullets and the DC's trajectory is FAR flatter.  I have also shot the 240 grain XTP and 240 grain DC, and they definitely do not have the close BC's that you say.  Maybe they do in fact shoot that way from your gun, but not from any of mine.
   All BC's are rough numbers.  But I have shot the DC's extensively, and I believe their numbers are fairly accurate...they could be a bit optimistic.  However the trajectory I get out to 300 yards, with every PR bullet I have tested, is always within a couple inches of where it should be for the published BC (always a bit on the low side, which is why I say they might be a bit optimistic).
   The SST 300 grain may be longer, but there is a lot more to the BC than length.  The shape of the ogive can dramatically affect the BC.

[big6x6]

"You're telling me that the 200 grain, .40 cal XTP has a HIGHER BC than a DC of the same weight and caliber??? No offense intended, but I just don't buy it."

Well Andy, you don't have to, but numbers ARE numbers.

In fact here ARE some numbers:

Knight Wolverine 209 22" barrel.  70gr fffg 777.  Bullets shot over 100yds with Oehler 35P at 6yds(0yds) and PACT Professional at 100gr(94yds).  Temp 76 degrees. 05/24/2004.  Shot in the following order:

Hornady .40 200gr XTP 0-1689fps, 94yds-1367fps bc-.183 adv bc-.199
D/C  .40 200gr 0yds-1690, 94yds-1365fps bc-.179 adv bc-.300
Hornady .429 240gr XTP 0yds-1635fps, 94yds 1343fps bc-.193 adv bc-.205
Harvester 240gr 0yds-1642fps, 94yds-1342fps bc .189

"All BC's are rough numbers."

Well, that's very true.  I do my best to remove as much "roughness" as I can when shooting for bcs.  I shoot similar bullets on the same day, same powder charge, same gun, same time of day, same shooter, same chronographs, etc.  In other words as close to the same conditions as I can possibly control.  Another item I try to remove is advertising hype.  My velocities are hard, factual numbers.  They are what they are.  I use the same Oehler "Ballistic Explorer" for calculation using the same parameters.

"The SST 300 grain may be longer, but there is a lot more to the BC than length. The shape of the ogive can dramatically affect the BC."

That's true BUT the punch line here is PR Bullet claims Hornady "stole" the exact ogive for the SST/Shockwave from the D/C!  So the Dead Center and SSTs have the same ogive of comparable weights!!!

Here are some more bcs I have calculated:

Hornady SST 300gr actual bc .226 advertised .250
Barnes 250gr Expander actual bc .149 advertised .189
Speer 270gr .429 actual bc .167 advertised .198
Speer 300gr .429 actual bc .189 advertised .213
Speer 300gr .451 actual bc .159 advertised .199
PB Aerotip .50 348gr actual bc .196 advertised .220
W-W Platinum Tip 260gr actual bc .183 advertised .200
Barnes 195gr Expander actual bc .210 advertised .176
Hornady SST .40 200gr actual bc .231 advertised .265
D/C .40 240gr actual bc .189(tested 05/22/04) advertised .351
D/C .40 240gr actual bc .195(tested 12/20/03) advertised .351
D/C .357 195gr actual bc .211 advertised .375!
And I've tested more than THIS!!!!

The POINT is....If my techniques, calculations, or velocities were incorrect for the D/Cs, wouldn't it stand to reason that ALL the numbers were incorrect by an equal margin? But the fact IS they are close, VERY close to advertised numbers.  Close enough for testing parameters to be the difference for practically everything EXCEPT the Dead Centers.  I have done this so many times I have 100% confidence that these ARE the bcs, or at least VERY close representations, for at LEAST the first 100yds of flight.

Lastly, consider this.  PR bullets would have you believe that their 240gr D/C with a bc of .351 is aerodynamically superior to a .308 150gr Hornady BTSP bullet with a bc of .349 that is longer, smaller diameter, AND a more aerodynamic ogive.  IMPOSSIBLE!

[AndyHass]

I don't doubt your math Chuck.  I am totally confident that you are careful and consistent.  I just think there is a flaw in it somewhere.  Have you ever calculated BC OVER 100 yards?  The differences under 100 yards are very small, and small errors in measurement can cause large errors in BC calculation.
   The BC you calculate for the 240 gr DC is .189,  BARELY higher than for their Keith Nose bullet.  While it is a bit heavier, you're trying to tell me that a flat-nosed, gaping-holed hollow point is going to fly nearly as flat??  That makes absolutely no sense.  I've shot both bullets, and the Keith Nose drops like a rock in comparison to the 240 gr. DC.  The only alternative is that the BC for the Keith Nose is also inflated; if this were true, it would have a BC well under .1 and approaching that of a round ball.  I don't think you'd try to tell me this is true.
    True, your numbers are consistent for every bullet type except the Dead Centers.  Since the Dead Centers are pretty different from most of the ML bullets you showed numbers for, maybe your methods are not good enough to test a bullet with a high BC.
     If you talk to high power people, they would never test a bullet's BC at 100 yards.  As the BC increases and the bullet flies flatter, you need to test them over longer ranges to get an accurate measurement.  The fact that you rate a Barnes Expander higher than a 195 gr .357 DC tells me this is probably true.  I hunted the 195 grain .357 last year in a Duplex sabot.  Zeroed at 200 yards, I was 3.9" high at 100 yards and 17.1" low at 300 yards.  Velocity was 1998 fps on average over 100 grains of FFg 777 and accuracy was MOA.
    I'd do this if I had access to the necessary range right now, but try this.  Shoot a 240 grain XTP at 200 yards and a 240 grain DC at 200 yards.  Tell me which one drops further.  According to your numbers, they should be practically on top of each other.  I have both bullets, so if I have time in a couple weekends when I can get that kind of range I'll do it myself and post the target.  :wink:

[Omega]

True, your numbers are consistent for every bullet type except the Dead Centers.  Since the Dead Centers are pretty different from most of the ML bullets you showed numbers for, maybe your methods are not good enough to test a bullet with a high BC.

Chuck, I won't even touch this one, the fun is all yours.

[AndyHass]

Hey, don't try to push a fight that isn't here.  
   In no way am I intending to personally attack Chuck here.  My experience just doesn't match up with his and I'm suggesting reasons why it may not.

[Omega]

Hey, no fight here!  :eek:  You've made an substancial error in your reasonng and Chuck will point it out. Or not. That is up to Chuck. If you want I'll remove my post, just say the word.

[Roger_Dailey]

....  I hunted the 195 grain .357 last year in a Duplex sabot.  Zeroed at 200 yards, I was 3.9" high at 100 yards and 17.1" low at 300 yards.  Velocity was 1998 fps on average ....

  I believe that the trajectory path you experienced would require an effective BC much higher than the .211 or even the advertised .375.

 Seems like I read somewhere that a bullet can be overstabilized.  That is, it is spinning so fast that the nose of the bullet rides a little higher than the tail and that may cause the bullet to "float".

As always, YMMV

[big6x6]

There may be several "REASONS" why my results vary from PR Bullets.  But lets first remember a a few things.  First, out of SIX saboted bullet makers, one of the six is having a hard time living up to their ads.  Also, back to the 300gr Hornady SST/300gr .45 Dead Center.  Same ogive.  The SST is slightly LONGER.  I KNOW the bcs should be VERY close.  PR Bullet says the D/C is .336.  Hornady says theirs is .250.  YOU be the judge.  I say knock about .100 off of the average D/C bullet bc and you'll be in the ballpark.

There is NO industry standard for determining the bc of bullets.  There is also no police organization to establish what is fact and fiction.  It's up to the shooter to determine that.  

There ARE several methods for "helping" ballistic coefficients.  One is velocity.  Slower velocites yield better bcs.  Another method is to clock the velocity further downrange.  In other words take velocities from 50 and 100yds.  This 100% eliminates the bullet/sabot transition completely.  Well, until the sabot is eliminated completely, this is NOT the true bc!  The bc begins the split second the bullet exits the barrel.  Winchester uses he best method I know of in determining a bullets bc.  They have doppler radar on their range.  They can tell you the bc from zero to 200yds.

A couple of observations DO lead me to believe my methods are pretty good.  The main observation is the Hornady SST.  In fact, the SST is THE bullet that has cast a shadow over PR Bullets ballistics.  Especially the 300gr .45 and 200gr .40 of which there are D/Cs to make direct comparisons.  The SSTs should be as good or better than the corresponding D/C due to being longer.  This is simply due to the copper jacket being lighter than lead.  Less lead in a SST than in a D/C.  Yet PR list the D/C 200gr at .300 and the 300gr at .336 while Hornady says the 200gr bc is .265 and the 300gr is .250.  Trust me, even HORNADY overstates their BC!  The other observation is I tested the 240gr D/C two different times and each time they were so close it was insignificant.  The first time I myself said "no way.!"  Well, TODAY I'm saying, "WAY!"

Concerning testing at longer ranges.  Well, most of the time I am limited at the range to 100yds.  I have another range I use sometimes that goes to 200yds.  My plans ARE to check some velocities to 150yds.  That's about as far as I'll shoot thru my chronograph unless you want to give me yours!  I am POSITIVE the bcs will improve as range increases but it will improve for ALL of the bullets.  By what measure, I'm not sure.

All current muzzloader bullets are subby when compared to typical centerfire hunting rifles.  For now, there's no way around that.  For me, that means the typical bc for a saboted bullet is around .200 with the range being from about .150 to .250.  

All I can say is the numbers are what they are.

[RandyWakeman]

There is NO industry standard for determining the bc of bullets.  There is also no police organization to establish what is fact and fiction.  It's up to the shooter to determine that.  
All I can say is the numbers are what they are.

Chuck is absolutely doing it the best way an individual can. The Olin Doppler radar range is the best, as Chuck mentioned-- and few bullet makers care to give their "basis" for BC measurements. Hornady will not, and some how SST BC's get better when they are sold by Thompson. A mystery. Thompson, of course, does not care to say, either.

Powerbelt BC's don't add up well, and the heavy conical BC's may sound impressive-- but, they are traveling so slow that the numbers automatically jump as detailed by Sierra's three phase BC method to correct the flawed Ingalls G1 flight model.

If you pop a bullet through a chrono at a given range, that leaves very little doubt as to what actual terminal velocity and energy you are whacking your animal with under your specific conditions / load / gun.

It just isn't a static number . . . at the muzzle, they all stink due to velocity and sabot. Lose both, thimgs get a lot better. Fair 'nuff?