Thoughts on 22 for self defense

[Poor Richard]

I talked to local deputy about using a 22 for self defense and he said that 22's will penitrate body vest and about anything else.  wondering about a little 9 shot Titanium 22 that a lady can shoot a lot and get good with.
Don't hang me yet since I know how most of you feel about self defense
weapn size.  Is this food for thought???
good forum
Poor Rich in Nebr

[KN]

Never heard that before. I don't believe it for a second. That aside my opinion is that a 22 makes a very poor defensive weapon. Yes I would take one in a pinch, but I certainly would not chose anything less than a 38spl for a primary weapon.  KN

[Bikenut]

A .22 just might be the best self defense caliber. It depends.

A general rule that can be used is: Bullets that miss, no matter how big, are useless. Bullets that hit, no matter how small, are far better than the big bullets that miss.

So the practical solution becomes: What ever sized bullet/gun the shooter can reliably hit the target with using quickly fired multiple shots is the most effective sized bullet/gun for that individual shooter.

That solution requires the shooter to go out and actually shoot guns/bullets of different size calibers in order to discover which is the biggest bullet the shooter is accurate with using quickly fired multiple shots. If that happens to be a .22 but not a .32 or a .38 or a 9mm or larger.... then the .22 is the best self defense caliber for that shooter. A .22 that hits the target is far better than a cannon that misses. Although, in all fairness, a cannon that hits is far better than a .22 that also hits.

Also generally speaking.... bullet proof vests will stop a bullet from penetration of a round, regardless of caliber, fired from a pistol but not a rifle round fired from a rifle because a rifle round has more "punch" and power behind it. One oddity not generally known about bullet proof vests is that they are very easily defeated by....... a knife. A knife point just pushes the fibers of a bullet proof vest out of the way and slips right on through. I'm not advocating carrying a knife instead of a gun just in case an assailant encountered is wearing a bullet proof vest... I just mentioned that as an oddity of bullet proof vests most people aren't aware of.

[gino]

The .22 is a good "killer" but a poor "stopper". With the size & weight of larger caliber pistols coming down into the .22 range I think I'd opt for something with a bit more stopping power. With most SD scenarios involving surprise & short range one shot might be all you can get so I'd rather have that one shot be a little (or a bunch) more powerful than a .22. Just my $.02 worth.
gino :-)

[Ron T.]

I’ve taught a good many people, both men and women, to shoot… and I often suggest a .22 rimfire to a woman or a timid non-shooting male for two reasons.

1) A .22 pistol is small and light weight for carry purposes… and the ammo is cheap so the person can do a LOT of practice shooting and get “good” at hitting their target.
2) A .22’s recoil and report are light, so the firearm going off doesn’t “scare” or shock the newbie shooter into firing wildly and missing his/her target altogether.  Obviously, three or four .22’s in the “bad guy’s” chest or forehead is USUALLY better than a “miss” with a 9mm, .38 or .45!

Those are the “advantages” of a .22 rimfire… and the “disadvantages” are just as obvious.  Even in .22 Long Rifle cartridges, the little 38 grain hollow-points or the 40 grain solid lead bullets are NOT “stoppers”.  They may eventually kill the “bad guy”, but he’ll be able to do a lot of damage before he dies.

The ONLY cartridge WORSE than a .22 lead bullet is the .25 caliber full-metal jacket bullet.  At least the lead bullet MAY expand… the FMJ won’t.

If I were taking a pistol to a “gun-fight”, I’d take one of my 1911A1’s in .45 ACP with some extra magazines.  However, for everyday “carry”, I bought a Kel-Tec P3AT in 9mm “short” (.380 ACP) and use the +P hollow-points it the tiny (for a .380) pistol that weights ONLY 10.0 ounces fully loaded with 7 rounds (6+1) and is only about 3” high, 5” long and .75 inches wide.  (See the article on the new Kel-Tec on page 42 of this month’s Guns & Ammo Magazine)

The +P .380 rounds CAN be used in the little Kel-Tec (according to their instruction manual on page 3) and they yield 221 ft/lbs of muzzle energy with an 85 grain bullet at 1082 fps compared to a 158 grain .38 Special which yields a mere 14 ft/lbs more (235 ft/lbs) in the standard .38 Special load.

The Kel-Tec .380 is a true “9mm” having a bullet diameter of .355 caliber for the .380 versus .357 caliber for the .38 Special.  Not a lot of “difference” if you compare the ease of concealment of the Kel-Tec with it’s 7 shots vs. most of the small, 2-inch barreled .38 Specials with their extra weight, bulky cylinder and only 5 shots.


Strength & Honor…

Ron T.

[Lawdog]

Take it from me, a .22 lr at a range of four feet will NOT penetrate a body vest.  It can knock you down if you don’t know it’s coming.  A .22 lr has probably killed more people than any other caliber(used to be the favorite of the mob for hits) and does a lot of damage as it doesn’t always follow a straight line after entering the body.  As a stopper it is better than the worthless .25 ACP but not by much.  Get your wife/girlfriend a bigger handgun and teach her to handle it.  Lawdog
 

[Zcarp2]

What was the saying, "a .22 in the tear duct is a sure fire stopper"?  Know the limits of yourself and your gun.

[Dusty Miller]

Hey folks, I've said this before and I'll say it again.  Carry a gun that is appropriate to the threat you are likely to face.  Its a very simple concept.  If all the criminals in your area are little old ladies who attack with an umbrella then the .22 will do just fine.  If however, you suspect that you may have to deal with some hardened ex-con standing well over six feet and weighing 250+, then add in the real big dose of heroine, meth, or PCP, you may want to consider some defensive weapon with a little more UMPH!

[twodollarpistol]

I have to ask myself....If I were trying to break into a house or auto and a scared woman was inside shooting at me with a .22, would I just go on in with the knowledge that the little 9 shot pistol probably wont stop or kill me and I may be able to stand the pain long enough to have my way with her. Or would I tuck my tail and run. Think Ill run, and most other people will too. I understand there are always many different situations and we can never plan an emergency, and there aint no guarantees in life and nothing is absolute but we do the best we can. No a .22 aint the best or badest, but it damn sure beats nothing and if that is what she can shoot well go with it. JMHO

[Lawdog]

It seems that some seem to think that in a situation where you are going to need a handgun to protect yourself or a wife/girlfriend for that matter, you/they are going to have time to take careful aim and put the bullet in that small area where a .22 lr will do the job.  In real life you/they are going to be in a hurry, most likely scared and the adrenalin is going to be pumping.  The main thought on your/their mind is to stop the perpetrator just as fast as you/they can.  You/they are going to point at the target and pull the trigger.  I have investigated a number of self-defense shootings(both done by LEO’s and private citizens) and they all have said the same thing.  They wanted the person stopped and didn’t remember even taking aim while they were shooting.  True a .22 lr will stop a person IF placed it the right spot but how many can hit that spot under adverse conditions?  I have yet to see a woman that couldn’t be trained to handle a handgun in a caliber such as a .32 Auto, .380 Auto, etc. class which is a much better choice for protection.  My wife is not the largest woman in the World and it didn’t take that much training to get her so she could handle a .357 magnum.  I love my wife way to much to trust her life on any .22 rimfire.  Get your loved one a gun big enough to do the job when it counts and take the time to see they know how to use it.  Lawdog
 

[Dusty Miller]

CORRECTO!!  Yeah, its dumb as hell to pack a gun you can't handle but just rememberr that if  you are attacked by a big, mean, ugly, vicious ex-con juiced up on his favorite recreational drug chances are really poor that your .22 is going to stop him.  So, I guess that one has to make an accurate assessment of just how much gun he/she needs and then learn how to use it.  That means going to the range and putting in some regular practice and perhaps even taking a self-defense course.  Otherwise, don't go out at night and make sure your doors and windows are securely locked.  As for myself, I seldom go out at night, my doors and windows are secure and I'm not half bad with my .45 ACP!

[jhm]

Carry the largest caliber you can accuratly handle period, however I would be willing to bet that their are a lot of individuals who carry a caliber that they cant accuratly shoot, come on now think about it can you really shoot the handgun you are carrying or does the fact that it is a large caliber give you some feeling of safety.   JIM

[Dusty Miller]

The stats I've read say that 90% of self-defense shootings occur at less than 20 feet, and 70% occur at arms length.  How good do you have to be?  Well, truth of the matter is that when you are scared to death it can be doggoned tough to hit a big man at 20 feet, but at arms length you just about have to know how to operate the trigger!

[Dali Llama]

A .22 lr has probably killed more people than any other caliber(used to be the favorite of the mob for hits) and does a lot of damage as it doesn’t always follow a straight line after entering the body.  As a stopper it is better than the worthless .25 ACP.  

Dali Llama say he assert that .25 ACP be slightly more preferable than .22 LR, solely due to unassailable fact that former be centerfire ammunition.

[Bikenut]

Ok...

Last night I helped with our gun club's CCW class.. there was a lady taking the class using a .38 revolver. Now this gun would fit what others are saying about using a middle of the road gun with decent stopping power. Now all that is necessary to qualify is to put 6 rounds into an 8 inch circle .... from a distance of 9 feet!. And the lady could NOT qualify using her .38 revolver but when handed the instructor's .22 semi auto Ruger she immediately stuck all 6 rounds into a 2 inch area... and qualified.

Now the shots from her .38 would still have hit the assailant in various non lethal areas but the one's from the .22 would have all been in center of mass and in a small area of that center of mass. The .22's in the center of mass would have less of a chance of missing even a moving assailant and hitting bystanders but the one's from the .38 could have missed and hit God knows who.

So now tell me which gun should this lady carry for self defense? The bigger caliber that she can't reliably hit anything with or the one she can hit with? Remember that even if faced with a drug crazed criminal the bullet that misses surely doesn't do a damn thing no matter what caliber it is and even a little damage from a small bullet is better than no damage from a big bullet.

[Dusty Miller]

She should practice with the .38 until she can use it effectively.  She knows now that she CAN shoot straight, and if she is determined to master the .38 she'll do so.

[Lawdog]

Dali Llama,

Dali Llama say he assert that .25 ACP be slightly more preferable than .22 LR

Read my post again.  I said that the .22 lr as a stopper it is BETTER than the worthless .25 ACP not that the .25 ACP was more preferable.  I have no use or respect for the .25 ACP.  I know of two men that were shot in the head with the .25 and both are still alive today.  One was a break in artist that attacked the home owner after he was shot with the .25 ACP.  The home owner was in the hospital for a very long period of time and even today is blind in his left eye due to the beating he took.  The other is a friend and fellow officer that was shot in the back of the head, at point blank range.  The gun was less than a foot away from the back of his head when the shot was fired.  He is no longer an officer but only because his wife told him it was either her and the kids or law enforcement.  You want to give someone a false sense of security then give them a .25 auto.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[dawei]

I talked to local deputy about using a 22 for self defense and he said that 22's will penitrate body vest and about anything else.  wondering about a little 9 shot Titanium 22 that a lady can shoot a lot and get good with.
Don't hang me yet since I know how most of you feel about self defense
weapn size.  Is this food for thought???
good forum
Poor Rich in Nebr

22LR from a Rifle WILL NOT penetrate Body armor; at least not what I put on under my uniform every night.

Will 22LR kill a person? YES. Will 22LR Stop a person? Doubtful.

If you are going to carry a Titanium revolver for self defense get a 38 Special or 357 Magnum.

[Bikenut]

She should practice with the .38 until she can use it effectively.  She knows now that she CAN shoot straight, and if she is determined to master the .38 she'll do so.

Why not tell her to practice with a .45 until she can master that now that she knows she can shoot straight? I'm not trying to anger you Dusty, I'm just trying to point out that different people have different tolerances for recoil and different abilities to master recoil. The lady I mentioned is very small in heighth, very slender, and not all that strong. Perhaps, in time, she could master the .38 but would still be better served by a gun she can actually hit something with right now. The reason I know there is a difference in people's ability to master recoil is that I personally can't handle anything past a 9mm because, after the first shot with a larger caliber I can't get the gun back on target very quickly but with a 9mm I can keep it on target for the many shots that surely will follow the first. Now, if every self defense situation were to be solved by that first shot I'd be ok.... And my girlfriend can't handle the recoil of anything larger than a .32 and even lacks the strength to pull the slide back to rack a round into a KEL-TEC .32. If she is ever in a situation that requires reloading and racking the first one into the chamber she is in trouble. But she can rack a round into the chamber of my .22 Star.......... now I'm not going to tell her to start lifting weights just so she can work the slide on larger guns as she will put her booted foot into a sensitive portion of my anatomy and lift this 195lb man completely off the ground.

I agree with everyone that a .22 definately isn't the best man stopper and may not even stop the guy. But it will do damage when it hits. The .45 (or .38 ) that doesn't hit the assailant isn't going to stop him either nor will it do any damage when it misses.

[Dali Llama]

Dali Llama,

Dali Llama say he assert that .25 ACP be slightly more preferable than .22 LR

Read my post again.  I said that the .22 lr as a stopper it is BETTER than the worthless .25 ACP not that the .25 ACP was more preferable.  I have no use or respect for the .25 ACP.  

Dali Llama respectfully request that Lawdog read Dali's post again.  Dali understand full well what Lawdog say, but respectfully disagree.  Dali say .25 ACP slightly preferable due to inherently superior reliability of centerfire ammunition over rimfire ammunition.  Dali suggest Lawdog compare relative number of failures to fire in centerfire and rimfire ammunition.

[Lawdog]

Dali Llama,

I have had more misfires with centerfires than rimfires in recent years.  Also a good high velocity .22 lr will out penetrate a .25 auto.  I will tell you this much if I had only two to choose from to protect myself(a Beretta .25 auto and a Ruger MKII .22 lr. loaded with Stinger ammo) I am going to grab the Ruger(especially if it’s my 10 bull barreled one because then when I run out of ammo I can beat the perpetrator to death).  If they were taking a poll on the most worthless handgun cartridge ever made, the .25 auto would be at the top of the list if not number 1!

Bikenut,

even lacks the strength to pull the slide back to rack a round into a KEL-TEC .32.

Simple answer to that is get her a revolver like I did my wife and daughters.  Simpler and easier to operate anyway.  Besides if 6 shots doesn’t get the job done, three extra shots out of an auto are not going to make a difference.  Small groups and tight lines to all.  Lawdog
 

[papajohn428]

If stats are to be believed, most gunfights occur at between three feet and seven yards.  And while police training has been steadily curtailed over the past 15 years, police still do more training than many civilians.  And yet in police-involved shootings, the cops MISS about 70% of the time!  :eek:

Trainers know that when the adrenaline dump hits, reflexes and coordination go right out the window, and hitting anything besides yourself becomes iffy.  Practice is the key, and training must be realistic.  While I will shoot a few rounds at 50 to 100 yards to check the drop, most of my shooting is rapid fire at five to thirty feet.

As for a .22 LR penetrating a vest, my BS detector is shreiking.  In the early 80's I was given the job of testing our 4-year old, smelly, decrepit vests.  All but one stopped everything up to and including a .41 Magnum 170 JHP at about 1500 fps.  The one vest that failed was pretty much falling apart already.  And these were old-style, low-threat-level vests made in the mid 70's.   :roll:

And while the rest stopped the 41's, the backstop of 2X4's they were pinned to was blasted to splinters!  The blunt trauma would probably have broken every rib within six inches.  Ouch!  :shock:

The newer vests are a LOT better than what I wore back then!

PJ

[leverfan]

I talked to local deputy about using a 22 for self defense and he said that 22's will penitrate body vest and about anything else.  wondering about a little 9 shot Titanium 22 that a lady can shoot a lot and get good with.
Don't hang me yet since I know how most of you feel about self defense
weapn size.  Is this food for thought???
good forum
Poor Rich in Nebr

Well, there are two ways to overcome vests.  One is velocity, because an impact velocity of much over 2200 fps is more than Kevlar can absorb, at least in the vests I'm familiar with.  A large, fast bullet slaps right through.  In general, we're talking centerfire rifle rounds here.  The other way to overcome a vest is through the use of hard, pointed bullets that focus impact energy and do not deform, but even these must hit at a fairly high velocity, so the 22LR just doesn't make the cut.

I read in another post on this thread about knives going through Kevlar, but that really only applies to stabs, because Kevlar is very cut resistant.  An icepick would really be ideal for poking holes in Kevlar, but you'd have to whack it into the vest with a fair amount of force for it to do much harm.  The vests that I used to wear at work had 14 layers of Kevlar, plus the cotton vest that held the Kevlar panels.  In the front, there was a trauma plate to prevent heart problems caused by the blunt trauma of bullet impact.  I can attest that these vests protected the wearer from punches as well as bullets, and woe to the bad guy that threw a haymaker into that trauma plate.  Of course, you could also sneak up on a rookie and smack one of his shirt buttons right over that plate with your mag light, shattering the button.

If the vest is wet, as is likely the case from all the sweating you do when you wear one, the Kevlar doesn't work quite as well, but it will still stop a 22LR.  

As for arming the lady in your life with a 22, my wife has shot 22LR to 308 Winchester and heavy 45 Colt, and her current favorite is the Redhawk in 44 mag.  Don't sell gals short on their ability to deal with recoil until they've had a chance to shoot.  My wife is only 5' 5" and 115, although she does work out, and she has a fairly physical job, which may help.  She learned to shoot from me back when we were in high school, and she's always preferred larger caliber guns for plinking and packing.

[Dusty Miller]

You make a good point about about not selling women short when it comes to shooting.  MANY of them are excellent shots and just delight in outdoing the guys with their favorite macho handguns!  Approached properly about 99% of women can be taught to handle a 357 mag or a 45 ACP.  It'd sure do the shooting sports good to get a lot more women involved.

[leverfan]

Approached properly about 99% of women can be taught to handle a 357 mag or a 45 ACP.

Dusty, based on what I've seen, that means that the percentage of women that can handle 357 and 45 recoil accurately is higher than the percentage of men that can.  You may be right, too.

[Dusty Miller]

Approached properly about 99% of BOTH  sexes can handle the heavy hitters.  Its a matter of training and getting the right mind set.  Don't get me started over this business of mouse guns!!

[Mikey]

Fellas:  some of the Ladies I know prefer to carry thier little Beretta 21As not becasue of the reduced recoil but because they can hit with it.  When I can take them from nothitting with a mild 38 load, to kickin' cans around at 30 feet with a 22 pocket rocket and have them keep asking for the 'spare mags', then I know I have an individual who can and will use her (or his) little 22 well.  

No, a 22lr does not penetrate body armor but, when placed anywhere between the 2nd button and the chin, will defeat the most intent individual.  For some there is always the concern about misfires but I have those same concerns with factory centerfire ammo.

If it takes a 22 pocket rocket to get women to come to the range and enjoy shooting then just teach them how best to use it and get them to the point where they are comfortable carrying the piece and using it.  Then, no matter the caliber, you have a winner.  Just my 2 cents worht.  Mikey.

[Lawdog]

Mikey,

when placed anywhere between the 2nd button and the chin, will defeat the most intent individual.

I couldn't disagree with you more.  Any attacker is going to be jacked up on something.  Could be drugs or the lack of them or on plain adrenaline but they will be jacked up anyway.  I have seen to many reports(Doctors and Coroners) where a .22 lr. or similar type round has deflected on the sternum(breast bone) without ever touching a vital organ.  I know all the women that have taken a self-defense course at our club are taught to use handguns of more suitable calibers.  They are taught using .38 sp. revolvers and every woman passed the course.  Personally I wouldn’t want to be responsible for training a woman to use something that gave her a false sense of security and end up getting her hurt or killed because the weapon she used failed to stop the attacker.  My opinion and the opinion of many others is it is irresponsible to teach a person to use and depend on a .22 lr. to defend their life and the lives or their loved ones.  Muzzle blast and recoil in a 4 inch .38 sp. can easily be tamed by even kids, just take the time to teach them.  Small groups and tight lines to you.  Lawdog
 

[Lawdog]

Chris,

in the 2" five shot snub guns, the blast and recoil is quite a bit different animal when compared to the heavier 4" .38's. especially in the super light weight material guns available today

This is a non issue.  In most every civilian shooting case I every investigated the person defending themselves never remember shooting or let along hearing the gun go off.  They couldn’t tell you how many shots they fired in most cases.  So the muzzle blast and recoil never came into play.  Nor do I think the difference between a 12 oz. handgun or a 38 oz. handgun ever came into play.  Lawdog

[dawei]

This is a non issue.  In most every civilian shooting case I every investigated the person defending themselves never remember shooting or let along hearing the gun go off.  They couldn’t tell you how many shots they fired in most cases.  So the muzzle blast and recoil never came into play.  Nor do I think the difference between a 12 oz. handgun or a 38 oz. handgun ever came into play.  Lawdog

This absolutely true; known as the phenomenon of "Auditory-Occular Exclusion". Been there, done that; have the video & the T-shirt.

To others on this board; LISTEN to Lawdog, he KNOWS of what he speaks.