Thoughts on 22 for self defense

[S.S.]

The .22 LR would be better than throwing rocks,
But I would not want to stake my life on a rimmed
cartridge in a semi-auto for the reason of the
rim catching on the rim below it in the mag
and causing a jam.
I think this was the point Dali Lama was making.
It is true that more people have been killed by a .22
LR than any other non-military cartridge, but it normally
takes a couple of days for the person to expire.
The results of a shooting really depend a lot on the state
 the person is in when they are shot.
I have seen a person struck multiple times by 9mm and
.40 S&W HP rounds in the chest and he still managed to kill one
of the police officers at the scene before he died.
Then again I have seen a 230 Lb. man die almost instantly
when a home-owner shot him with a .25 auto.
He had removed a window unit Air conditioner and was climbing
through the window. He was half in and half out when we got there
and the only wound he had was just above his right elbow.
Died of fright I guess?
I Can't condone a .22 or .25 for serious Self-Defence,
But it would sure  beat a can of tear-gas or a whistle.

[alpacker]

Do you want a caliber that says stop right now, or that says wait till sometime later.
If you have time to wait till later, then you don't need a gun, you just need to wait till later.

A gun fired in defense of your life is meant to KILL the attacker as soon as possible.
If a .22 will do this for you better than a .38 loaded with super-vels or even a .32 H&R hot-loaded with wadcutters, then go for it.

A .22 from a snubnose will not penetrate a human skull in most cases.
A .22 from a six in barrel is another story.This is getting closer to a .22 from a short-barrelled rifle when you use a nine or ten inch barrelled pistol.
A four inch barrelled .22 is useless compared to a six inch barrel for hunting.Its the velocity difference that counts for the kill.

A four inch barrelled .32 mag with handloaded wad cutter bullets at 1000 fps will punch thru a skull and scramble-the -eggs and will be easily taught shooting factory .32 longs faster than shooting a .22 rimfire.

This would be my choice for a minimum stopper with intent to kill.
Headshots are easily taught.

Women and new students like the feel of the smaller .32 shells and take to them much more readily than the larger .38s even though they aren't sacrificing much in power.
The smokeless powder is the fooler here since the .38spec. case is a little more than twice the size it needs to be since its actually an old black powder design.The .38S&W is actually a more efficient case with smokeless powder although it too was of Black powder parentage and cannot be shot in .38 special chambering.

    I would consider a new four inch barrelled RUGER Vaquero in .32 H&R caliber for a lady or new shooter.
The ammo for it can be .32 S&W (short), .32 S&W Longs, .32 H&R Mags in jacketed HP or lead SWC, and .32 acps .Thats four different shells off the shelf and with different power levels and bullets-five if you count the .32 MAG jacketed or lead  as two.
I would start with the .32 longs factory WC or RN.
They are reloadable and can be reloaded for self-defense very easily.
The RUGER pistol single action can be fired pretty quickly with practice and is such fun to shoot that the student will quickly gain proficiency and want to shoot just for fun.
It is intimidating if produced and pointed at an adversary and is small enough to be carried or concealed.
Ruger also has a double action in this caliber.

[Bikenut]

Seems to me... although I might be wrong... that it comes down to trying to use the biggest fastest bullet that will expand the most. Now that makes perfect sense assuming that bullet hits the intended target!

I agree that a big bullet going fast that stays inside and causes maximum damage is more effective than the little bullet going slow staying inside and doing minimal damage. That one is a no brainer.

But no matter what is used, up to and including an RPG!, if that round does not impact the intended target it is fargin' useless.

Someone already wisely pointed out that for self defense a person should use the largest caliber they can reliably hit the target with. Now to me that means that if I use a .45 but can only maybe hit the target once but surely can't hit it with follow up shots that .45 is useless unless I use it as a club. If I use a .22 and can hit the target with every bullet that gun is loaded with then that .22 is more effective than the .45.........

True, the .45 is a more effecient stopper IF it hits the target.... but the .22 that DOES hit the target is far more effective (even if it doesn't stop the assailant immediately at least it hurt him) than the .45 I missed with (and didn't harm the assailant one bit).

Bullets that hit are best regardless of caliber which means I need to use the bullet caliber that I can hit with. It isn't the caliber that counts but it is the ability of the shooter. Therefore it makes sense to keep shooting guns in ever increasing calibers until I find one that I can't hit crap with.... and go back to the one just before it.

Now I'm aware of my own personal limitations on controling recoil for follow up shots and the 9mm in self defense size guns is my upper limit. If someone were to insist that I needed anything larger (like a father insists a son, or a husband insists a wife, or an instructor who should know better insists) than a 9mm I'd be wondering if they were on my side or on the assailant's side!

It isn't the gun..... it isn't the caliber... it isn't bullet weight or speed........ it is the ability of the shooter to hit the target. The gun and the ammo used must be tailored to the individual shooter to gain an effective self defense system for that individual shooter.

Anyone see anything wrong with that reasoning?

[jhm]

Chris:  You are correct, and again how many are carrying a handgun that is in a caliber that they cant handle?  I carry a 9mm 90% of the time as it is the one I feel most comfortable with, even though I have several other calibers and can shoot them fairly well I feel the most comfortable with the 9 mm, and BTW why is every attacker jacked up on something that will make them bullet proof, I agree you should consider all of them on something but I am sure a lot of that is being blown out of proportion.      JIM

[Mike in Ct]

this is anecdotal evidence but a detective I know was at an autopsy of a shooting victim...Four recovered 22 caliber stinger slugs in the chest..Those 32 gr. pills opened up like dimes...I have been carrying all my life & the older I get the more I value convience of carry to size of the cartridge it fires...That said my wife has a small 5 shot 38 caliber S&W revolver..most of the time I carry a 22 LR autoloader..in the winter it is easy to carry a regular sized sidearm..in the summer it is better to have at least the smaller gun rather than go without one...mike in ct

[Dali Llama]

The .22 LR would be better than throwing rocks,
But I would not want to stake my life on a rimmed
cartridge in a semi-auto for the reason of the
rim catching on the rim below it in the mag
and causing a jam.
I think this was the point Dali Lama was making.

Dali Llama say no, but it be another good point. :-)

[BamBams]

Handling recoil is also a non-issue.  I've got two, average sized teenage girls that can shoot both my .45s and a .454 Casull with no problems at all.  In fact, they can out shoot many adults. Recoil is not a problem.  It's the FEAR of recoil that is the problem.  We can thank all the stupid gun mag writers for that.

[BamBams]

Nothin' wrong with a .38 revolver, but I''ll bet you dollars to donuts that it has more felt recoil, muzzle flash, and side blast than my 1911 .45 ACP!  There's a really good chance it's also less accurate.

You should take your wife's .38, along with a larger caliber handgun out to the range.  Have her turn around and face up range while you either load, or don't load, the chambers.  Watch her shoot.  See if she jerks the trigger or milks the hammer.  She doesn't know if the gun is going to fire or not.  Then do this with the larger caliber gun.  I'll bet you see a big difference in how she shoots each gun.

Recoil only happens AFTER you shoot, so it does NOT affect accuracy at all, and a properly trained shooter isn't going to pull a trigger until the front sight returns to the target anyway.  It's just a matter of having the correct grip on the handgun and a good shooting position.

I teach the NRA Basic Pistol Course to 15-20 new shooters per month.  I've been doing this for 7 years.  About half of each class, and sometimes even more, are female.  So conservatively speaking, I've worked with about 500 females who have never learned to properly shoot a pistol before.  They come in all shapes & sizes.

I have NEVER seen a female over the age of 12 who could not COMFORTABLY shoot a .45 auto because of the recoil.  It's all in the training/conditioning they receive -- whether that comes from friends, husbands, gun mags, the movies, or someone like myself.

Often, they have chosen, or even more commonly,  someone has chosen FOR them, a handgun that is too large in the frame or with a trigger pull that is too heavy. This causes problems because of less upper body strength and finger strength. This applies to a great many MEN as well.  I know guys who probably can't even do 15 push ups but reckon themselves as commandos anyway. *laugh*

The first things I do as a range officer is make darn sure their boyfriends or husbands don't get anywhere near them on range day.  That is our policy, and we stick to it.  The second thing I do is make sure they get to watch the kids shoot first.  It's a confidence building thing, but they don't know that until later on.

We also do a "Round Robbin" excercise in which everyone gets to shoot everything from a .22 right up to a .45 in pistol - as well as most gauges of shotgun, a muzzle loader, and even a .50 BMG.   On average, only one female out of an entire class will decline to shoot any of those, and that's either due to healing injuries, or plain ole' fear.

I've honestly lost count of the females who have told their husbands they don't want their revolvers anymore after I've let them shoot a nice, 1911, and I've lost count on how many trigger jobs get requested by females.  Mind you, I've got nothing against revolvers at all.  I also shoot one of those, but the vast majority come out of the box needing a trigger job, and for some strange reason, most people don't have one done.

As far as gun mags go, their reviews are usually 80% BS!  How many times have you read the words "punishing & recoil" in the same sentence?  The .44 mag, even with hot loads doesn't even "punish" a pre-teen.  Oh sure, it might push them back some if they are off balance and don't have a proper grip, but "punishing"?  It's just pure bullcrap!  Throw away the gun rags and go shooting with WHATEVER you like!

[Old Griz]

:cb2: So much has been covered (and re-covered), I'll throw in my 2¢ worth and then I'm outta here.

I agree with those who say women can handle recoil. Heck, it's easy for most of them—they don't know anything about it. Us big old macho men have heard all our lives about recoil, and most are scared of it when we first pick up a gun. (Some never get over it.) We focus on it. When my wife first started shooting, no one ever told her about recoil. I didn't say a word. I didn't want to scare her off. Her instructor told her to focus on the front sight, and she did. Her favorite gun is now my Glock 21. She says she likes to feel it when it goes off, and she likes the nice big holes. (Man, and she can really cook, too! My belly is proof of that!)

As for the .22 v .25, I'd rather trust a knife than a .25. I've heard too many stories from doctors, nurses and cops about people being shot with .25s at very close range (even suicide attempts were a guy shot himself in the head three times before he changed his mind) with this underpowered round, with no serious damage. I can empty my 12-shot S&W 2206 in the black in under 3 seconds, which is no mean feat—I'm sure almost anyone here on this forum could. I'd take the higher velocity .22 (even in a revolver) over the anemic .25. Now that's a moot issue—to me anyway—because I think the .380 or .38 is the smallest gun anyone should consider for self defense. If you can't handle either one of those, you need to buy some pepper spray. You'll probably do more good with that than a handgun. (Even in bear country.)

[Mattkc]

I've seen a lot of people shot with a lot of different cal. and it's amazing how unreliable they all are as stoppers.  Yes even the 45acp. it's really cool to talk to a guy who was just shot in the head with a 357 and watch him walk out of the hospital weeks later.  I've seen guys who kept fighting after several hits from 7.62x39.  Now when you get up to 308 thats a different story.  If I was in a gun fight I rather have a 40 over a 22 but if the 22 was all that was pratical so be it.  If I had to use a 22 it would be a head shot a 22 is one of the worst rounds to take in the skull.  It penetrates the skull then tumbles and bounces around in the skull. This will drop a person like a rock.  That little hole quickly clots pressure inside the brain builds and death follows quickly.  Larger rounds tend to punch straight through and the larger holes drain blood keeping the pressure lower.  It's amazing how much damage the brain can take and still survive.  While any solid hit to the heart and game over.

[papajohn428]

My experience with the 22 and headshots (some firsthand, some anecdotal) tells me that unless the slug strikes the skull perpendicularly, it's more likely to skid off and leave a minor flesh wound.  I know two brother officers who have been head shot with 22's, only one even has a noticeable scar.  In both cases, the bullets penetrated the scalp, slid along the skull, and exited.  Both officers were able to return fire, one killing his attacker with one well-placed 357 round in the wishbone.  The other never had a chance to return fire, the guy saw him draw his gun and got the heck outta Dodge.  Were I to rely on small caliber bullets for head shots, I'd use FMJ, with all the velocity I could get.  22 Magnum would do fine, given enough barrel.  

If it's all you have, a 22 is fine.  But I'd never recommend it for defense unless you had a good barricade and a ton of ammo!

PJ

[Brett]

Would a .22 be my first choice?  Heck no. But it beats using your fist, rocks or a knife 9 times out of ten.  As far as stopping power goes, IMO if the gun will fit in your pocket (by this I mean any side arm) it probably will not stop an intent attacker with one or two shots.  If your looking for near absolute dependable stopping power try a 12 ga. loaded with buck shot.

Okay now that I have made the above statement, let me ask you tough guys this:  Any of you ever accidentally stir up a nest of yellow jackets?  Those little suckers won't kill you in your tracks but they sure as heck make you want to get as far away from the area as quickly as you can.  :wink:

[Brett]

Since I have tost my hat into the ring and at the risk of upsetting any  handgun Rambos lurking out there.   I am no expert but have done a fair amount of study on the subject of self defence.  Here are the conclusions which I have drawn:

1. The best way to avoid getting injured or killed in a confrontation is to avoid them. Only a fool goes looking for, or sticks around for a fight.  Do your best to stay out of places or situations where an attack is likely.  If you find yourself in or think you might be getting into a bad situation your first priority should be to look for a way out.  Exit stage left,  make tracks, get the #$#% out of Dodge.  Statistics show that armed assailants who shot at a running victim missed 9 out of 10 times and those who  connected seldom caused life threatening injuries. Cowards generally live to place flowers on the graves of heros.  

2. Rule #1 is not always possible (sometimes trouble comes looking for you) so get some type of self defence training and always be alert.  The type of training and choice of weapon(s) hinges on your risk factors.  What I mean by this is someone with a low risk factor such as a white collar worker living in a nice suburban neighborhood, working regular business hours may do just fine with some martial arts training.  On the other hand someone with a high risk factor such as someone with a vending machine route or someone who lives in the city and works nights in a rough part of town may need full blown combat training and whatever kind of weapon he can legally carry on his person.

3. There is not a handgun or handgun caliber in the world that can guarantee an immediate stop to an attack.  Some calibers have better track records than others but none come with a guarantee.

4. Pulling a handgun should be your last line of defence.  This means all hope of implementing rule #1 (removing yourself from the situation) has flown out the window.  Why?.... Because 9 out of 10 shots taken under duress miss there intended target (works the same no matter what color hat you wear). Because there is not a handgun caliber in the world that guarantees an instant KO.  Because if you survive the attack you are still going to have to face the jury.  By the way, the one of the first questions the prosecutor will ask you is 'Why didn't you implement rule #1?'.    :shock:  

5.If it comes to the point were you must use a handgun, any handgun is better than none.  One that you are familiar with and can shoot well, improving your odds of hitting your attacker(s) is best.

6. Your average attacker is not a drug crazed super man, he's your run of the mill street punk who would rather avoid injury or death himself. This is why he most often prays on women and the elderly.  If you pull a gun (any gun) chances are he will beat feet rather than question your choice of caliber.

Sorry this is so long winded. Hope it helps some.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: How to get even with yellow jackets:

Hang a piece of meat a few inches above a bowl of soapy water. They will gorge themselves on the meat and fall into the water. The soap will keep them from flying and the nasty little pests will drown.

Now I'm dying to try the instant rice trick on sparrows!

[Jim n Iowa]

My wife has AR in the wrists, and has not really warmed up to firearms. I bought for her to use a 2"ported  32mag revolver, which she can handle even using speed loaders. I thought about a 22mag for but have no confidence in it even head shots. The 32 Mag is very close to a 38 sp in killing power. I once dated a nurse in ER, she told me of a lot of patients coming in with gun shot wounds from a 22. They are patched up sent home and most of them die.
Jim

[twodollarpistol]

Well said Bret.  Old Griz you just got a nasty streak.  :-D
P.S....Gonna try the soapy water trick. Gotta love it.

[Mrserenity]

Hi! I use to have a .22 a few months ago.  Yes, it is very cheap to shoot and great in getting use to shooting a semi-auto.  I have since moved up to a Guardian .32 acp.  I can't tell the difference in recoil.  For self defense - between the two get the .32 acp and she should be able to handle the recoil.  It has more stopping power.  However, it will be much more expensive to shoot than the .22

[daddywpb]

I've got an old pieceof Kevlar to play around with, and a .22 won't go through it. I have an NAA .22 Mag mini revolver that I drop in my pocket when I leave the house. Not my first choice, but better than nothing when it's 98 degrees out, and I'm in shorts and a T shirt.

[U S Male]

I've got much respect for the 22 lr after being hit by one (accident). If you don't think those lil' suckers are bad news when you get hit by one then you need to reconsider. Just one shot had me bleeding profusely and in to shock just moments after being hit. Another thing is that they feel  much larger when they enter your body and the burning sensation is horrible as well.This was just the regular velocity 22 lr from a 5" barrel. I can tell from experience when you are hit at fairly close range it changes your perspective/opinion of these. I own some pretty powerful handguns but would not be afraid to defend my home with a 9 shot revolver loaded with CCI stingers or even less. I also carry a NAA mini loaded with 5 stingers because of the easy concealment. It may be hard for some to understand what i'm saying in this post but when you see your own blood spurting out of your body with every heartbeat it gives you a new respect for 22lr...in my opinion.

[Brett]

Well I'm, no ballistics expert or anything but  I can tell you this much being shot, even by the lowly .22lr, is not something I care to experience first hand.  U.S. Male I'm glad your still here to tell us about your first hand experience although I'm sorry it happened.  Hopefully somebody came out the wiser for it.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I would like to suggest a revolver in .22Mag for the lady.  The wounds that I have seen from .22Mag look pretty comparable to the .38 Spec loads that I shoot.  Now mind you, these are only on skunks, BUT......

. 38 Spec> Taurus .357 revolver with 3" barrel
.22Mag> NAA revolver with a 1 1/2" barrel

You might try one of the Taurus small frame revolvers in .22 mag.

Also there is and article written by Massad Ayoob about the .22 Mag and he opined that the .22mag does damage way out of proportion to the size of the caliber.  He said that he's seen various reports of shootings/killings with this caliber, and the internal damage always resembled .38 wounds.

Of course, If you can carry and handle something larger, PLEASE DO.  My wife couldn't hit crap with any of the 9mm's that I was trying to find for her a few years back.  Then I handed her my 1991A1, and it is now HER gun (shoots it better than I did, right off the bat).  Go figure....

I do shoot my Glock 36 better than the gov't though......must be in the ergonomics.

[Old Griz]

:cb2: I just tell folks my wife is such a good shot because she had a better teacher than I did. :-D

[huntsman]

Let's just say hypothetically that I become a professional scumbag next weekend and decide to do some serious domestic disturbance in a stranger's home. Imagine my consternation when I discover that the homeowner is not only home and upset, but armed as well....

Given that possibility, I would probably be packing, and not a .22 unless it was all I could get my hands on....

Assuming my mind is warped, and I'm NOT packing, I'm still praying (or swearing, or wishing, or whatever) that the gun I'm facing is something I will live through, or better yet, can recover from without going to a hospital. Imagine my relief to know upon being hit that I've been stung by a .22, and I still have a chance to knock the crap out of him and empty his clip back into him before he puts another one in me....

------------------

Speaking for myself again on the good-guy side of things, the option to deliver a load of 00 12ga buck would be my first choice, followed closely by a load of #3 buck in 20 ga, followed at a little distance by the biggest handgun round in the house... you get the picture. Granted, under pressure we are all more apt to lose control, but even if I miss I'd rather do it with something that spanks enough to tell the BG that if the next one does hit, he is in serious trouble. He's alot more likely to leave if I miss with a 12 gauge than if I hit with a .22. Hell, in the heat of battle the BG might not even know he's been hit with the .22. And he's likely not to leave, at least not under his own power, if I hit with the 12 gauge.

Look at it this way... if you gave a marine going house to house in Bagdad the choice of either a .22 or a 12 guage, I know what would get the call every time. War is war, whether you are trained or not, and whether its in your house or halfway around the world.

[Dusty Miller]

My God, I thought this topic was going to die LONG ago, its just SO idiotic!!  How about "The .17 and Self-defense"?!!!!!!!!!!

[Savage]

Ah shucks, Dusty. No one has tried to make a case for the CB cap as a defensive option yet!!
Savage

[DPRinks]

This may be a slightly different case, my wife is blind, on occasion I have to be away overnight.
I have her a .38sp, double action, loaded with Speer shot caps full of #6.
I told her to point at the noise, which she can do quite well and pull the trigger until the gun stops making noise, then reverse it and be ready to swing it over hand.
My personal choice is a 1917 with 180gr +p hps.
Don

[Mrserenity]

Hi, I am responding to US Male.  First, I would like to say i'm sorry about your accident and glad you are ok.  Being that this topic is about carrying a .22 caliber handgun for self defense, and your first hand experience with being shot with one, your response sheds some light on this topic.

From your experience and what I have heard on this topic here if one was to use a .22 for self defense, the longer the barrel the better.  And if it was a .22 magnum the longer the barrel even much more better than the .22 lr.   As far as home defense I currently use a 20 gauge shotgun.  Again, I glad to hear that you are ok from your accident.

[dogngun]

Poor Richard ;

   A problem with .22's is that many small auto pistols that shoot them don't always work
. The cartridge was designed for use in rifles- it's long, narrow shape is NOT what you want for an auto pistol.(note the short, fat shape of the .45 ACP, 9mm, etc.) Also, the .22 LR comes in many different bullet/case lengths, and many different bullet shapes and weights, and this makes it difficult to desigh a pistol around it.
Then there is the fact that many of the low-end .22 pistols, the smaller concealable ones, are not reliable, and are hard to shoot accurately.

I did carry a .22 as a back up, and as a "better than nothing" pisto for years, and I have gone through Beretta, Iver Johnson, Star, Tarus* and all of the cheap zinc pistols without finding one that worked EVERY TIME.

The smallest caliber pistol I carry now is a 9mm Parabellum Star BM. It's all steel, fairly heavy to carry, but extremely accurate and it always works .

Get a .38 special revolver.

Mark

* The Tarus .22 had a light mag release button that released the magazine in my pocket. I pulled the pistol, the mag fell out. Oops.
Not recommended.

[RVER]

We were looking for the smallest, lightest, reliable pistol for 24/7 pocket carry. The Keltec P-32 fulfills this need better than any other pistol. Yea, our Glock’s shoot bigger holes, but their soooo much harder to carry in a pocket.

Although the .32 isn’t a power house, we’re willing to bet that delivering multiple .32 FMJ shots into a bad guy’s “magic CNS box” will do more to get us safely home at the end of the day than will strong words, finger nails, .22’s or .25’s…  or the .40 Glock that was left at home or in the car.