Possible touble after chamber polish

[aulrich]

I had two head separations yesterday (243 ultra).  What really spooks me is that it was half way through a batch of 50 loads, but after a chamber poslish.
One thing that does come to mind is that a budget crunch this winter forces me to economize. one way I did was to buy used brass the guy the classified did say once fired, but for all that I know it could have bee any number of times.  For the record the load was straight out of the Nosler manual 55gr nosler and some OLD 3031 .  

Now the head separations happen on round 5 & 6 of the session, after that I switched to a different load and  I shot another 5 rounds (resighting) with perfect functioning.

I have also noticed another thing it seem that the first 5 shots after a cleaning I get allot of sticky cases after that they seem to disappear.

[JPH45]

Take a peice of heavy wire about 4-5 inches long, clotheshanger will work well. Sharpen one endto a fine point, and then bend at a 90 degree angle just behind this point, the bend needs t be small enough the enter the case mouth. Insert in the case, and drag the point along the side of the case at and near the case head. If you find a small "catch" discard the case. "Once fired" brass that has been picked up at a range, cleaned and sold, means it was picked up at the range and is assumed to be once fired.

For all we know whoever was firing that brass had a head seperation as well, and left the brass instead of crushing it so it could not be reloaded. It is hard for me to imagine a reloader being careless in this way, but these days thoughtlessness seems to be the rule rather than the exception.

[marv]

This just my opinion from you posted, So just take it that way.
 The used brassyou bought was prob used a lot more than the guy told you. Or some time back it had been resized and shoulder was push back.
causing seperation. Sounds like you didn't get all of the polishing compound out of the camber. when you polish you need to clean real real good, safe shooting Marv.

[Fred M]

Here is what I see. My 25-06 Ultra has a chamber that has .005 head space.
When the rifle is fired there is zero head space.
When I size my cases I use a Redding ".004" plus" shell holder which will give the reload 0.001" head space. But have since substituted the .002" plus shell holder for a 3 thou head space.

Lets say the 243 has the same 5 thou head space and the die has is zero minus 5 Thou or what. that will make the case 10 thou too short. enough for a used and too short a case to separate. Shell holders are too not the same and can vari 2 thou.

If you can feel an indent with a pointed wire you are way past any usable
case life. A NECO concentricity gage that measures case wall  thickness in 1/1000 is much more revealing.

I am about to measure my 25-06 case walls after six reloads and see what I got since they had to be trimmed at each reload.  For the purpose of testing I have trimmed cases to max length at 2.494" that way it is easy to see the stretch in each case. Fred M

[aulrich]

Fred If I understand you correctly these shell holders are used to alter the length to the shoulder of the catridge?  Do you think I could achieve this by using a feeler gauge while setting up the die?

I don't know if this has any bearing but I recently try to make some rounds with the Lee Collet Die.  I never even tried to fire the rounds I expected some interference when closing but it would close but not completely. Using swag I guess there was a 3 thou gap (I could just barely see light between the barrel and the receiver).

BTW what part of the Great White North do you come from I am from Calgary

[Fred M]

aulrich.
Yes with a feeler gage you can find out how much if any the shoulder needs setting back. Or if you sizing the cases too short. You should not set the shoulder back if you have the proper 3-5 Thou head space. The Redding competition shell holder set will adjust the length of the case up to 10 thou plus. Shim stock washers under the case head will set the shoulder down (minus) x thou.

Nor should the loaded round be past the breech face not even one thou.
Neither should the primer be sticking out. Unlike a bolt action the Handi has no caming power to seat the primer or swedge the case in place.

Any protrusion will change the seating and position of the barrel latch and produce unwanted vibration which kills accuracy. The rifle must be fully closed all the time for any consistancy,

I have found the collet die unsuitable for the 25-06 because it does not bump the shoulder back. This is very common with machine gun shoulders (17-20deg shoulder) which flow and stretch cases. In a bolt guns zero head space can be made to function, but not in a Handi.

On the other hand I have loaded hundreds 243AI with hardly any trimming or neck thickning with max loads. Their is simply no comparison between it and the standard 243.

You have to watch the 243 cases so you don't use them too many times.
243 target shooters use the 243 Lapua cases they are extreamly tough, but also very expensive, but cheaper in the long run because they last longer.

The 243 is another notorious case stretcher with brass flowing into the neck and shoulder junction. If this is not corrected seated bullets will be excentric in the neck with uneven neck tension. These cannot be expected to shoot any type of group.
Fred M.

[safetysheriff]

I bought used brass once at a show and am blessed to live through it.    Some of the flash holes were significantly over-size and probably accounted for the excess pressures that developed in some of the loads.     The group of brass may have actually been sabotaged by some prankster......

I don't agree with the lack of closing power developed by a Handi rifle.    An energetic attempt at closing the action, I believe, will push a cartridge into the chamber because of the momentum of the barrel and the stock working against the frame.     Sure, it's not "camming power", but I believe it is very forceful.    

I think we should stop the practice of buying used brass........it's frightening to see the Bad Results. :eek:

[Johnboy1948]

Two guru target shooter friends of mine NEVER shoot brass from an unknown source. They only reload new brass or THEIR OWN used brass. Why blow up a gun trying to save a few dollars?

It's difficult enough to maintain good groups, so why throw suspect brass into the equation?

[Fred M]

safetysheriff.
Yes I also think that using second hand brass is not a good idea, and false economy.

Yes you can slam the Handi shut, and maybe fully seat the cartridge, but that is not a substitute for a proper fitting cartridge. Besides this slamming will cause wear and hides any feel if anything is too tight or some dirt is in between the barrel and the standing breech. The ejector also likes to be pushed in nice and easy so you don't end up with a groove in the breech.

If a cartridge is too long in the chamber I doubt very much you can fully slam it in. It takes a very beefy press to set the shoulder back two or three thou. Some presses won't even do it because they spring or flex the frame. This is why I use an Ultra Mag Press there is no give even with the most ambitious case forming. Fred M.

[Double D]

Fellas it's a lot simpler than what you hae been talking about....

Don't switch brass from one gun to another, and especially in the tip up actions like your handy's or TC's. No two chambers are the same and there can be up to .004 difference in chamber length and still be with in headspace.  Switching brass from one chamber to another leads to premature head separation.  And, it does and will happen in once fired brass.

Here's an old single shot rifle loading trick that will improve brass life and is claimed improve accuracy. I can attest to the increase in brass life, as to accuracy...well my trigger accuating device always seems to come up with a jerk...

Get new brass for your gun.  With a triangle file, file a small notch in the rim. On the back end of you barrel make light mark above the chamber at 12 O'clock.  Now when ever you load this brass in the gun make sure the notch aligns with the mark.  This is called Indexing.

When you resize the brass, back you sizer die out a full turn. Run a case up in it . Take the case and try in your chamber. you should have some resitance to closing. Turn the sizer die in an 1/8 of a turn at a time until it takes brisk snap to close the action.  Lock the die at that position. If you can close the action on the sized case with no resistance then you most likely have set the shoulder back and are setting the case of up for failure.

That bent coat hanger trick is a good one, but a paper clip works better it's smaller and stiff but no where as tough as a coat hanger to bend.  You can get closer to the bottom of the case with it.

[Fred M]

Double D.

This is called Indexing.[/quote]

What is  it you are indexing? Placing a notch in the rim on each case does not create a relation from one case to another, unless you have a very crooked chamber and only neck size. Even neck sizing will straighten a case to some extent

Indexing is done by target shooters by first establishing an abnormality in cases namely case wall thickness. Carefully rotating the case on a fixture with a dial gage to find the thick part of the case wall and then indexing the case and load it at the same spot with the index mark to improve relation of the bullet to the bore and uniform gas flow.

I have done that with the 243AI and found it a waste of time.

Statistical tests have established that in the short range game out to 300yrds indexing is of questionable value. It is muich better to buy good consistant brass like Norma and Lapua and RWS with very little dimensional variance. Fred M.

[Winter Hawk]

I don't see anyone suggesting neck sizing only.  I reload with a Lyman 310 tong tool mostly, which neck sizes only.  I deprime and size the cases, then run them through the action.  If a case won't allow the action to close I set it aside for full-length resizing at a later time.

Once a case has been fired in a rifle, full length resizing just shortens case life by working the brass and doesn't buy you anything as long as the case will feed properly.  Having said that, I had a model 788 Remington in .308 which had enough give in the action that I could only neck-size cases three times before having to full length size them.  The same holds true for any rifle which locks up at the rear of the bolt, like a lever action.  

The NEF .30-06 has not shown me any case stretch after initial firing, which surprised me.  Some of my cases have been reloaded 8 or more times and show no signs of separation though I am thinking of tossing them "just because."

The other thing is that I don't shoot maximum loads.  I work up for the most accurate load and stick with that.  Shooting at various distances gives me a good handle on the limitations of the load.  Believe me, MY limitations are reached before those of the rifle/load combination!

Just some observations on what I do.  I wish everyone a good day.

-WH-

[Double D]

You are indexing that piece of brass so that it goes in that chamber in the same position every time. The relationb ship is between each piece of brass and the chamber.

It doesn't have anything to do with the practice of indexing done by the Benchrest crowd.  And it doesn't create any special interior conformity of one case to another. It isn't the key to any magical source of accuracy.  

It does prolong brass life if you are having problems with head or case separation, by putting the cartridge case back in the chamber in nearly the same postion to which it was originally formed when first fired, minimizing additional stretch.

In the non rigid lock up guns like TC's, NEF/HR Handi Guns, Remington Rolling Blocks the brass has a tendency to stretch on one side due to the flex of the action.  The brass fire forms to fit your chamber just like it did when your formed your Ackley Improved brass.  In the TC,  cartridges like the .223 and 7 TCU are the most notorius for the problem. It's the  7 MM Mauser in the RB that always separates.    Indexing is the only way to keep brass more the 2 or 3 loadings in these guns.  

You want to put the stretched side in the same location that it was formed, thus you index.  Don't over resize the that section and minimize the  stretch beyond the first firing.

It's not a problem that occurs in the dropping block or bolt action rifles.  they have the own set of problems.

[Fred M]

Double D.
What you are saying makes perfect sense. Having very little experience with the H&R action, I will try this indexing. I also agree with minimal loads for best performance in the Handi. This has already become aparent in my load development. Thanks for the explanation.
 Fred M.

[aulrich]

If the case goes in the ~same way. Would it not be stretched in the same spot accelerating the work hardening of the brass in that location. Which in turn would cause a stress concentration because of the differences in elasticity causing a case rupture?

BTW no more used brass the brass I have will be fired an discarded.

[Fred M]

Aulrich.

Double D says  

In the non rigid lock up guns like TC's, NEF/HR Handi Guns, Remington Rolling Blocks the brass has a tendency to stretch on one side due to the flex of the action. The brass fire forms to fit your chamber

When a action like the H&R flexes, there will be more space on top of the barrel than on the bottom. The case head will form itself to to that angle the case will stretch on top. If you put in the case the same way it came out the case wont have to stretch to conform to the flex angle hence no stretch or very little but not one sided.

Other wise the case will have to make up that angle each time, at 180 deg it would stretch twice as much.
I think I got that right.

The flex will actually pull the barrel away from the latch and minutely open the action creating this angle. That is why indexing makes sense. You still need to watch your brass.  Fred M.

PS. Going Salmon fishing for two weeks.]

[aulrich]

That makes sense, I see it like this. the brass of the case head under full pressure is like water in a glass and gravity is the acting like the gas pressure. Tilt the glass and the water stays perpendicular to the force of gravity. So if you put them in the ~same way every time them thee case head does not have to move as far to conform to the chamber.

Have fun fishing Fred, post some pic's when you get back !

[Fred M]

aulrich.
Send me a private message with your phone #. I will give you a call when I get back. I am just about out the door. just packing a few more items.
Fred M.