Mini 14 or MKII-77

[sd550]

Got a NIB Mini 14 Ranch that I was going to set up for coyotes at 200 yards max.After reading the different forums (incl.Perfect Union) about its poor accuracy,I've decided I made a bad choice.My friend at the gun shop said he would give me full credit toward a new rifle (MKII-77 .243Win). :?

Any Mini 14 owners out there with an accurate rifle, without spending a lot of money getting it to shoot ?

Thanks for any input.

[scruffy]

I've got posts over on Perfect union on how I cheaply got my mini to shoot straight (as do others).  Mines gone from 6"-7" patterns to just under MOA.  It's pretty simple and cheap.

Basic steps:

1. Gap and retorque gas block halves so it's not putting pressure on the barrel.  Do this while the action is in the stock so you reduce/eliminate any pressure the forearm may be putting on the gas block.

2A Shim on the insides of the stock between the recoil lugs and the stock.  I used .020" thick steal shims (mine had alot of slop...), but brass shims work as well or better.  I have to push the reciever in the stock now.

or

2B Fiberglass bed the stock in place of shimming to eliminate slop in the receiver/stock fit.

3. Shim between the trigger plate "fingers" that run along side the magazine and the stock.  This will increase lockup pressure.  I used .030" thick felpro rubberized gasket paper for this part.

4. trigger job

The above three steps will eliminate flyers, patterns instead of groups, and some stringing.

Many increase accuracy further by installing muzzle brake that will help control muzzle flip.  Another way to reduce muzzle flip is to cut the barrel from 19.5" to between 16.5" to 17.5".  

I didn't like the brake (I like my hearing....) and I found my mini, uncut, with the front sight removed and no brake shot its best groups, probably because it was the simpliest barrel harmonic arrangement.  

From a bench, no front sight or brake, 1-7" twist (yours is probalby 1-9")taking a few minutes to cool between shots, my preban ranch has shot multiple sub moa (.820" - .980") 5 shot groups shooting winchester 45 grain "white box varmint" pack ammo.  From a cold barrel it would also put 3 shots into under an 1" off a bench, but after the first 3 quick (couple seconds between shots) the barrel was heating up and the fourth and fifth shots opened up to 1.5" - 2".  These groups were shot with both forearm and butt stock support from both the sitting and prone positions (prone was better, but I'm a better prone shooter....).

That was last fall, since then I've reinstalled the front iron sight, installed a rear williams mini14 peep sight, and removed the scope (if you remove the handguard you can mount a 6-18x50mm scope in ruger rings).  Most of my shots are 100 yards or less and the irons were quicker, weather proof, and more ruged.  I haven't shot the irons for groups yet, I'm still adjusting to the peep sight, something I have little experience with but really like.

Basically you need to remove the slop in the reciever/stock and tighten the lockup.  Then gap/torque the gas block and a trigger job and your set.  From a bench you have to take your time, it's a light weight hunting barrel, not a bench barrel.

later,
scruffy

[hylander]

Like Scruffy Said Check out .http://perfectunion.com/forums/
Mine also Shoot's 1-1.25" with good ammo.
Bedded, Muzzle brake, Trigger job, Gas bushing, Strut.
All Mods.=  $130.oo
Depends on what you like, They are two differant Animals not to be compaired.
I have a few bot guns that shoot .5, but love the Mini, Definatly Minute of Coyote.
For under 200yd. it is up to the Task and easier to lug around.
One note on the Ruger bolt, I'd take a look at Savage 12FV and
Rem. 700VLS  They are generaly more accurate.
Just my 2c.

[Coyote Hunter]

My brother has two Mini-14's but rarely shoots either.  I've shot them both on a prairie dog town and was very disappointed.  They are good for using up ammo fast, but not good for those long range shots.

My advice would be to get the VT before the offer becomes a forgotten memory.  I have the VT (laminate/stainless) in .22-250 and absolutely love it.  4 shots into 0.5" at 200 yards on a good day.  No Mini I've seen can do that.

[MI VHNTR]

I tried a Mini 14 RR years back. It was/is the most inaccurate rifle that I've ever seen. I tried adding a muzzle brake, scopes/no scope, ammo, shooters, etc. to no avail. I dumped it for a 77 MK II in .223. There was no comparison between the two. I later decided on a semi-auto .223 and went with an AR-15. Again, no comparison. The AR is a shooter.               FWIW, a friend bought a new Mini 14 RR last year against my advice. He too dumped it for a Ruger MK II in .223 after seeing how poorly it shot.     MI VHNTR

[scruffy]

Bottom line is if your not willing or able to put some time in on the mini bedding/shimming/etc you won't be happy.  If you're like alot of us and don't leave any rifle alone, no matter how good/bad it shoots out of the box, and love accurizing, the mini's a good project, and a good hunting accuracy rifle.

My mini sat in the safe for years, never used, too inaccurate, I always used bolt guns.  Then one day I ran across Perfect Union and pulled it out and started working on it.  I really don't have alot of time in it (only takes a few minutes to cut and trim shim steal or brass) and it's now a good shooter.

And if you're looking for a hunting rifle, bench accuracy isn't the best indication of performance unless you're taking a bench into the woods with you.  Go to a range or someplace and shoot off hand.  My Weatherby shot repeatible .5" 5 shot groups on good weather days off a bench, but would continually be outshot by the mini when I was shooting offhand or from other hunting positions.

So when someone says to me their rifle shoots .5" groups from a bench and acts like their gun is superior I ask "out of 20 shots how many off hand and sitting shots can you put in a 6" circle at 100 yards."  It's a different shooting discipline, different technique, hold, and many/most times takes changes to the rifle to improve your score.  On my weatherby I had to pull the heavy 6-18x50mm target scope and mount a much smaller/lighter elite 3200 3-9x40.  My bench accuracy dropped, but my hunting accuracy improved because the rifle was lighter (8lbs, shooting an 11lb rifle offhand didn't work for me) and more importantly balanced.  Now my weatherby and mini offhand shoot about the same when the mini is scoped.

But again, before I did some work on the mini it was a POS....  If you want an out of the box shooter, get an AR or bolt (my preference being savage also).

later,
scruffy

[MI VHNTR]

Well, to each their own. Here's my bottom line. I'd rather have an accurate rifle to start with and then just fine tune it, if it's necessary at all. I prefer to spend my time finding a load that a rifle likes, instead of trying to fix a problem (the lack of the Mini accuracy) that NEVER should have been released from the factory. There is no sound reason to have to do all of the work to get a Mini to shoot, especially for what it costs to purchase one. I don't care too much about bench rest stuff either. My out-of-the-box AR-15 will shoot better than ANY out-of-the-box Mini that I've ever seen, WITHOUT doing any work to it. I won't even get into accuracy mods either, since the AR will still come out on top. Again, whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy your Mini, that's all that counts. I'll stick with an AR-15 and a bolt gun.  MI VHNTR

[scruffy]

Yea, a $425 (preban ranch - mint) rifle, $1 in shim material, and less than an hour of work for a reliable low maintanence semi auto .223 200 yard coyote rifle floats my boat.   :wink:

My mini doesn't shoot as good as your AR or my bolt guns on the bench, but it's done better than my bolt guns in the field coyote hunting.  Go figure.....  My mini with williams peep sight kills more coyotes with less misses than my sub moa scoped bolt weatherby.  There's more to a good coyote rifle than it's ability to shoot a stationary piece of paper.

later,
scruffy

[scruffy]

Oh, and I think it was the January issue of Fur-Fish-Game that had an article on coyote rifles and the authors many years of experiences.  Moving along the progression of super scoped varmint rifles for coyotes to shotguns to preditor rifles.  They were pretty close to mine but I was floored when he ended the article saying that his favorite was his mini14 ranch, out of the box 3" grouper, shot more coyotes per year than any of his bolt rifles had for the total time that he'd owned them.  He said for his stage of calling/hunting he only really needed 100 yard range and the mini was very quick on target, tracked the target well (I think he called it bracketing), and was more than accurate enough to bring down more coyotes than any of his bolt rifles.  It wasn't as accurate as his other rifles but it was more efficient.  He said he added a Pentax 1-4x scope and he said it became even more deadly with the scope gathering more light and being able to target coyotes in lower light than the peep sight could.

But my experiences are the same, accuracy and effeciency are two different things.  And with a little tuning a mini will reach out farther than 100 yards, 150 being pretty easy for mine with the peep sight, 200 would be doable with a scope.  

Edit: And I don't want this to turn into a mini vs AR debate.  That's not the purpose of my posts.  My point is hunting accuracy verses bench accuracy, and one is not related to the other.  Try shooting a 3" group offhand with a 15+lb front heavy target rifle...  Whether you get a ruger 77, mini, AR, Savage, or whatever, sight it in on the range, then change to offhand, sitting, whatever positions you'll be shooting in the field and tune you rifle to shooting those positions.  

Like my "signature" has said for a long time, hunting is 99% brain, 1% gun.

And michigan varmint hunter, I've agreed with pretty much everything you've said, we enjoy different areas of shooting, your more into reloading, I'm more into accurizing (bolt, single, semi, etc.).  I can't leave any rifle alone.  Hunters/shooters who enjoy reloading and shooting, but not accurizing, will probably be disappointed getting a mini if they expect a tack driver. (like I said before, they should be an AR, Savage, something else).  If a shooter/hunter is like me and likes baselining a rifle and doing some simple things to it and get pride from the results of smaller groups, then he'll probably like the mini.  You have to admit, there's a lot of improvement to be had!   :wink:

It's all about what you're into, what floats you boat as you put it.

Again, hopefully this doesn't turn into a debate, as we're not debating, I agree with you, AR's are more accurate than mini's.

later,
scruffy

[sd550]

Well,it looks like I might keep the Mini!!!! The main reason I bought it was because of its size,weight,&looks. If I can get it to shoot 2"-3"at 100-150 yards it will serve its purpose, even though I'll work toward smaller groups.

I've got a Leupold 3-9X scope to go on it and now I'll get a trigger job and bed the action. I was thinking about having the barrel/action cryoed,any suggestions?

I guess I'll have to get me one of them Savage 12BVSS in .22-250 after looking at one Saterday. :-D    :-D

About the AR, got a Colt Comp. HBAR that will knock a mite off a flea's ear at 600 meters .:shock:

Thanks, sd550

[MI VHNTR]

I've also got a few points to add on this issue. FWIW, my pre-ban AR has been more reliable in the years that I've owned it, than my Mini was in the short time that I owned it. YMMV, but this is my experience. As far as the article in FFG, I saw it, read it and thought that this was this authors opinion on the subject, nothing more. I've got more than a few years experience at this game too. I also read an article by a "seasoned hunter" that stated any "serious varmint hunter" would have a 243 WSSM in their varmint arsenal.  So much for the validity of some articles.                     I don't care too much about bench shooting either, but if the hunting rifle is accurate from a bench, chances are it'll be accurate in the field. This is especially true if you practice shooting it under field conditions. All of my rifles are used for hunting, so I want them to be as accurate as possible while I'm hunting. Sure, I play around with my rifles, ie. triggers, lapping lugs etc., but I like to have an accurate rifle to start with.  Any further improvement is icing on the cake.  Again, enjoy your Mini and hunt safely.    MI VHNTR

[scruffy]

I've got a Leupold 3-9X scope to go on it and now I'll get a trigger job and bed the action. I was thinking about having the barrel/action cryoed,any suggestions?

I haven't had them do one but cryopro will do it for something like $35 and don't charge extra for the reciever.  Their website is Cryopro.com  If you search around the web on them you might find some personal accounts of their work.

Oh, and the savage is next on my list of new rifles.  Right after I come up with a good way to get it to pass the wife....  :?   I think I'll have to finish the basement first (hmmm, don't have the money for that either...), I've been cut off from all new purchases until then.  

MI VHNTR, 243wssm?  Yeah, I wonder how much he got paid to say that...  :roll:   That's one reason I like FFG, they're low budget and you can tell from the articles they aren't getting paid for support of the latest and greatest.  This year I've enjoyed reading about the good old .270 win and other old calibers.  If you know of any other "low budget" hunting mags feel free to pass their names along.  I'm letting all my mainstream hunting mag subscriptions expire because of the "must have a 243wssm...." preaching...

Hey, if you're ever down over in southern Iowa drop me a PM a week or so before.  Bring your AR and we'll go shoot.  If it's not too expensive for your liscense we could go call some yotes.  Depending on the time of year though (like right now) we may be more successful with shotguns...

Later,
scruffy

[TC Shooter]

Here's my bottom line. I'd rather have an accurate rifle to start with

Me too - but an accurate Mini 14 is appealing as well. Did not realize they could be made to shoot well with the factory barrel. Read a report on a Clark conversion (including new match barrel) on a Mini 14 and really did not think the accuracy was all that impressive for the money spent. Would like to hear how the Mini shoots before and after if you decide to keep it.

[MI VHNTR]

scruffy, I too think that the author got a few $$ or a free rifle for his "sage advice" on the 243 WSSM. LOL! I guess that I'll just have to stick with the "plain old" 243 Winchester and 223 Remington.
As far as magazines, you might want to try "The Trapper and Predator Caller" from Krause Publications. I'll check around for a few more, since one of my friends gets more trapping magazines than I do.
Thanks for the invite to Iowa. I haven't been there since the early 70s.  Who knows what time will allow? If you ever head WAY up north, let me know. MI VHNTR